Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

[jolsnogross]

Feel like this is going around in circles. We all surely realise that there are squad considerations to be factored in. The likes of Dragusin, Davies, Werner and Sarr would have all expected game time in the cups. Especially against lower league opposition. Bregvall, Gray and Odobert too would likely have been given assurances as to how much they’d feature when they chose to sign for us.

This should be obvious, no?

It's not obvious to play them all at the same time. It's self destructive. We have no form. Why make 4 changes to the back 5? Why not start with first team forwards to try to get some goals in them?

 

[olithfc]

It's not obvious to play them all at the same time. It's self destructive. We have no form. Why make 4 changes to the back 5? Why not start with first team forwards to try to get some goals in them?

With the amount of running they need to do, we have to be able to at least rotate our full backs but we can't really with Udogie. I think it's quite a glaring hole for us. The team is a bit weird as there doesn't seem to be obvious partnerships emerging (son and udogie, johnson and porro, solanke wtith anyone etc)

 

[Ghost Hardware]

I think most systems probably work if we have the right personal. As a club though we rarely get the players that fit a manager. We aren’t that kind of club and it hurts us.

Which I think is the crux of the issue as it was with Conte, Jose and even Poch since our self imposed transfer ban. Without trying to take the thread too far off topic, in essence no manager with strong tactical ideas is ever going to get their system fully functional under Levy’s stewardship as they will never be given all the players needed to make it work. It will always be a bridge too far. I think last summers window should have made that abundantly clear to anyone still unsure.

What that means for the future I don’t really know but I don’t think it takes a genius to see the squad at present is not strong enough in key positions to get the most out of Ange’s tactics. Really if when we do get to the inevitable point of looking for another manager, and i really really hope that point is nowhere near, then Levy would really be best served with employing a highly adaptable manager who whilst sharing Ange’s overall attacking ethos is also comfortable making the most of whatever players the club decides to bring in every summer.

 

[daryl hannah]

It's not obvious to play them all at the same time. It's self destructive. We have no form. Why make 4 changes to the back 5? Why not start with first team forwards to try to get some goals in them?

Devils advocate I’d guess because going forward the team that plays on a Thursday will need to be rotated quite heavily so they have to get used to playing together.

I have to say I’m starting to have very little faith in the current coaching.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

Previously, I dont think Ange has come up against enough teams who have counteted his tactical set up as effectively as we"re seeing now.

He's not just up against better teams now, but also better managers.

The fact we dont appear to have the answers at the momemt is inevitably affecting our confidence compounding the problem further.

I think this is right

But it's one thing to struggle against Pep - Coventry exposing us is a little more concerning

 

[TPdYID]

The thing is, mate, when do we stop blaming the coach? It was Conte's fault, then Mourinho's fault. Now it's Ange's fault, and before that, it was Poch and AVB and Ramos.

We've tried every type of coach—ultra-defensive to ultra-attacking, the youngest to the most experienced, those who've won it all to those who've won nothing, both English and foreign coaches. Last summer we were even at the point where we were considering rehiring a coach we have previously sacked.

The accuracy of this post is scary.

When do we start looking at the processes instead of just the outcome?

 

[Teegart]

After the game last night I resigned myself to the fact that no matter how good a manager is that we employ, the backing and conditions won’t be right for them if he has a very focussed and unwavering style and system.

The club will never push the boat out and get the players exactly suited to the system, ideally in their prime. So we end up, after a while with the league adjusting to how we play, with a clunky looking attack and a system that looks like it won’t work, but in reality we likely just don’t have players that are ideal fits.

Under enic I don’t see this ever changing unfortunately, so the only way I can see us even having a chance of overachieving is by having a tactically fluid manager, who is happy to cater and tweak a lot to make the best out of what he has. Problem with that is, I think those types of managers have a ceiling and are rarely in a job for the long haul ie Tuchel.

Depressing really as I really like Ange, but he’ll have to tweak his system slightly if he has any chance of seeing this job out long term.

 

[jurgen]

Listening to Johns

I am going to be contrarian here and say I do actually like the system on the whole.

I do think there can and should be more variation to the attacking patterns but on the whole, in theory at least, I find it quite an interesting one that I can see being very effective with the right players.

But that is the problem, we don't have the right players. We don't have a single winger capable of comfortably playing on the touchline. The FB's on the whole are probably better suited to overlapping and our midfield, whilst having improved with the introduction of two 10's, will never be able to create enough to mask our weakness out wide because so much of our game plan focuses on wing play.

I think the system on paper can work with the right personnel, I just don't think we have near enough of the right personnel. Maybe in time some of the youth will become the right profile but already for a start Odebert and Yang like to come in field and do a lot of their best work drifting central with freedom. The one big plus point they have is both are strong one on one (for their age) which is not something any of our other wing options are good at so hopefully they can, in time, adjust to the role.

So whilst on paper I quite like the concept behind his tactics I can't help but feel we will continue to hit our head against a brick wall every time we come up against a team that sits deep. Which, if they have any sense, the majority of teams will do except for the likes of City and Liverpool who have enough firepower to blow us out of the water regardless how they set up.

In reality I would actually go as far as saying there are very few teams in wold football that could make these tactics work at the highest level with the players currently at their disposal. You would really need an owner willing to spend and a scouting set up of the the highest quality in order to build a squad capable of winning the Premier League or Champions League as there is very little margin for error for the entire 90 mins across the majority of positions. Whats for sure is I don't see Levy and Lange being able to build this team.

The problem is we all know Ange is incredibly stubborn. Not only does he believe, because it has worked every single time in the past, his tactics will eventually work he also doesn't seem to take into consideration that maybe the players he has at his disposal are just not capable of adapting and delivering what he wants in the strongest league in the world. At some point as a manger I think you need to take a look at the tools you have and accept that some are just not capable of being utilised in the way you want.

Its very clear he is waiting for that collective "I get it" moment and we should all be wise enough to know that it does often take a frustratingly long time to get there. Often it can get to a point where 70% to 80% of the fan base want the manager gone. So with that in mind I do think patience is needed but at the same time I feel that "I get it" moment usually comes with some tweaking. TBF to Ange bringing Kulu into the RCM role is a change that shouldn't be overlooked. To me that is a positive sign that he is still looking to get more from our attack but we all know that it isn't enough.

I think at this point the next change to make is a far more significant one than putting Kulu in at RCM which is maybe why Ange is hesitant to contemplate it at this juncture. Essentially the obvious change now is the role of the FB and allowing one or both WF to come inside instead of being required to constantly hold the width. If Ange ever gets to the point of trying this we shall see, I imagine now he is still hoping what he has at present clicks but personally i am extremely skeptical it ever will primarily due to the players.

This isn't even me saying our players are not good enough, although with certain individuals you could certainly make that argument. I just think that too many are just not suited to the role they are currently being asked to play and I really don't see that changing any time soon.

Ange is coming across like the smartest kid at secondary school who is miles ahead of the other kids and then gets into a great university where everyone else is really smart and suddenly becomes simply average in comparison. That's not to diminish his previous experiences at all, but to reflect that the expectation things will eventually work without him responding properly to the context he's in is a big risk, and probably unlikely to go well.

Case in point taking one of the best, if not the best, xg exceeding finishers in world football, who is now 32, and sticking him out as a touchline winger miles from goal.

 

[Styopa]

I think most systems probably work if we have the right personal. As a club though we rarely get the players that fit a manager. We aren’t that kind of club and it hurts us.

I think there’s a gap between our expectations as fans and what the club’s owners are actually willing to deliver on the pitch.

Within four years of ENIC taking over, we reached 5th place, our highest finish in sixteen years. Since then, except for a few standout and unusually poor seasons, we’ve generally hovered around 5th place. Since 2001, we’ve finished 4th or higher seven times and 7th or lower eight times. On average, our league position since the 01/02 season has been about 6th.

I don’t think that will change any time soon. While we might have the occasional standout periods, like we did under Pochettino, I believe these will remain exceptions rather than the rule.

That’s one of the reasons I have no desire to change the manager right now. I’m frustrated with a lot of what we’re seeing and have voiced my concerns about our poor form, but constantly sacking coaches in search of a quick fix has become tedious. I’d prefer we stick with Ange and see if patience brings results. If it doesn’t work out, we won’t have lost much, as the next manager will likely face the same challenges anyway.

 

[CowInAComa]

Last night was a proper bad night there is no two ways about it.

but still not feeling the whole we are easy to play against/found out tactically narrative in respect to our first premier league fixtures. we created plenty of chances across our 4 league games, they arent like last night at all from where im sitting - had just one or two gone in off someones shin or arse we would have garnered some momentum and be fine.

Personally think although results dont reflect it our performances this season have been better than the bad run at end of last season. Obviously no excuses can be made for last night sorry excuse of a performance but it was such a changed side its hard to judge and we always do shit in these sort of games and have done forever.


though Im seriously worried now we are teetering on the edge of some sort of doom cycle because ultimately results are what matters and with the knives out now and the critics piping up everything starts to get a lot harder.

 

[DJS]

After the game last night I resigned myself to the fact that no matter how good a manager is that we employ, the backing and conditions won’t be right for them if he has a very focussed and unwavering style and system.

The club will never push the boat out and get the players exactly suited to the system, ideally in their prime. So we end up, after a while with the league adjusting to how we play, with a clunky looking attack and a system that looks like it won’t work, but in reality we likely just don’t have players that are ideal fits.

Under enic I don’t see this ever changing unfortunately, so the only way I can see us even having a chance of overachieving is by having a tactically fluid manager, who is happy to cater and tweak a lot to make the best out of what he has. Problem with that is, I think those types of managers have a ceiling and are rarely in a job for the long haul ie Tuchel.

Depressing really as I really like Ange, but he’ll have to tweak his system slightly if he has any chance of seeing this job out long term.

Poch was actually quite good at being tactically fluid, changing his formation to suit the players he had.

In his second season he put Dier in midfield and had that 4-2-3-1 system, which switched to a back three with Dier slotting back and our full backs pushing up.

In his third season when we finished second he also switched things around when we werent playing as well to a 3-4-3 and we absolutely spanked teams.

He also infamously tried that diamond, which actually did scrape us to fourth in his last full season - he was working miracles with the resources he had to hand.

He also did this at Chelsea, it just took him a while to figure out his best team but end of last season they clicked.

The only problem we had with Poch is we had that period where our recruitment was absolutely atrocious and he was declining players, but has been shown with Chelsea he will work with what you bring in if you utilise him as a head coach rather than a manager.

 

[talkshowhost86]

Criticisms of Ange are fair. I've certainly got reservations.

But the squad isn't there.

The transfer window wasn't good enough.

So he's either got to rely on kids or on the same players who abominated for much of last season.

If his remit is to finish in the top 4 or 5 and/or win a trophy then Levy is in fantasy land.

 

[Teegart]

Poch was actually quite good at being tactically fluid, changing his formation to suit the players he had.

He also did this at Chelsea, it just took him a while to figure out his best team.

The only problem we had with Poch is we had that period where our recruitment was absolutely atrocious and he was declining players, but has been shown with Chelsea he will work with what you bring in if you utilise him as a head coach rather than a manager.

I agree and why I think it’s no coincidence he has been our most successful manager in the ENIC reign.

Even look at them lot, who I loathe, but Arteta has been very flexible. Started with inverting the LB, now pivoted off that and evolved. Makeup of his CM3 has evolved, same with Havertz up top. Early doors they conceded too much so he focussed on getting the defensive base sorted, while he was doing that their attack suffered. Now they are so drilled it gives them such a base to work off, the attack also looks better. Couple that with the club backing him with specific players he wants, and it’s been a recipe for success.

Pep evolves constantly, he had inverting, then a back 4 of CBs, then 3241 in possession. Their recruitment is always spot on but you can argue the cheating set the foundations up.

Either way we need flexibility and have it coupled with smart recruitment. At the minute it feels like we have neither.

 

[Impspur1]

I honestly think the coaching team isn' t experienced or good enough.
I dn't see any improvement from week to week.

I think the set piece defending has generally speaking been a lot better

 

[dontcallme]

Criticisms of Ange are fair. I've certainly got reservations.

But the squad isn't there.

The transfer window wasn't good enough.

So he's either got to rely on kids or on the same players who abominated for much of last season.

If his remit is to finish in the top 4 or 5 and/or win a trophy then Levy is in fantasy land.

It might not be fair but this is his challenge.

We have 5 first team players around their prime years in Romero, Bissouma, Bentancur, Maddison and Son. Son a bit after sadly.

Then he has a squad with lots of good young players.

Ange needs to get the experienced players performing and leading by example and developing the young players.

It’s a big ask but if he can pull it off we’ll be in a very strong position.

 

[Impspur1]

I think the set piece defending has generally speaking been a lot better

Not sure why the laughter, aside from the Arsenal goal ( which should have been disallowed) we have been solid

 

[$hoguN]

Why do people keep making excuses about the squad here? Those players are largely Ange’s now. He has approved the signings. Yeah we haven’t signed World Beaters but he is the first to say he would sooner have two from the bracket down.

The issues we have, all start with the coaching. The inverted fullbacks mean we lack width at time. The all out attack means we are easy to break against. People keep saying we play a 6 but we don’t really have a traditional DM in there, which is Ange’s choice. Our set pieces are embarrassing, which comes from the training pitch. When we shoot and how we create chances comes from how we look to play.

Stop giving him an out. He needs to get us improving in those areas. I’m fed up with excuses on those things as they have stagnated or gone backwards since last year.

 

[bigfrooj]

I’m old enough and patient enough to want to stick with Ange but I’m really struggling with the lack of attempts on goal let alone shots on target. We have lots of attacking potential and loads of possession but it feels like the Conte days sometimes. There’s still too much fannying about both 18 yard boxes. Get forward quicker from our box and get shots away in their box. Seems simple enough.

 

[Mannnos]

Tired of reading about what players Ange did or didn't want in the window. Whether that is right or not is completely irrelevant now. If Ange comes out & says no I didn't want him I preferred X played then everyone loses. The player is pissed, Ange is pissed, the fans are pissed, the board are pissed & no one is going to do well. So let's all just keep speculating about Ange's thoughts.

I would expect any decent manager to come out & back the player every single time (except conte). Because that gives everyone the best chance at success, whether he believes it or not. And Ange will ALWAYS do that & ALWAYS accept responsibility if it doesn't play out. So most people will use what he says for him & then by the end use the same sentence against him & Ange will take that on the chin & accept responsibility as he always has.

Then people talking nonstop about players in the system, it's like most can't read or listen or remember. How many times has he said he wants a variety of style of player so that he can adjust during the game. He wants a different profile so they can attack the game in a different way. Example, if Brennan Johnson is not having success in his battle with his defender he can bring on kulusevski who is a different style of attacker. Bringing on Werner is basically just bringing on the same player. This team is SO far from a finished article.

And yes, last nights game was horrific on every level & if we keep playing like that for coming months he is going to be in trouble regardless of the process. It looked like a bunch of guys who hadn't played for a long time or ever played together (sometimes ever played football to be honest). But, history has shown recently for the top teams that sticking with a good manager & giving them time has been the best recipe to success. And, I wholeheartedly believe Ange is a VERY good manager. I think some spurs fans believe Ange is just happy to get a premier league job, I can tell you that is not the case. He is extremely ruthless & takes no steps back. Exactly the person I want being the face of our club.

 

[Styopa]

We have 5 first team players around their prime years in Romero, Bissouma, Bentancur, Maddison and Son. Son a bit after sadly.

The issue with that group is that many of them would be among the top candidates for an upgrade at the moment.

Bissouma and Maddison are inconsistent; apparently, this was a concern with Maddison at Leicester as well. Bentancur hasn’t looked the same since his injuries. Son is now over 30. And Romero might be on his way out this summer. That's not to mention all of the off-field stuff several of these lot were involved with this summer.

It’s possible that Ange isn’t getting enough from these players, but right now, they seem like a shaky foundation to build on.