Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

[mil1lion]

• Ten Haag and Arteta were terrible in their first years (ETH still is), but they saved their jobs by winning things. Arteta won an FA Cup in his first year. ETH won a League Cup in his 1st year and an FA Cup in his second. We'd be happy with either of those scenarios imo
• I don't get the Klopp reference. You are implying Ange needs someone else to build his squad. Or is this about Arne Slot?
• There's very few managers that could match what Pep does. Ange is not one of them. He could have unlimited money that he would not be on that level.
• I think Emery has done better than us with arguably less quality

Utd and Arsenal win things and have done for a long time. It's a totally different prospect with Spurs who have won 3 trophies in 30 odd years. So again different situations, put Ange in a team with that winning belief maybe gets different results too. I don't think any manager should need to win a trophy to be afforded time tbh, it's an unlikely mission with what we provide to them.

Referring to current managers so yes Slot taking on a Klopp squad.

Not possible to say how another manager would do with City and their resources. Pep is top though but nobody can say what Ange would achieve there. Unlikely to win as much but who really knows, I'm sure he would win things. Point is you can't really compare.

Emery has done well at Villa but they were neck and neck with us with similar quality and he was there a bit longer as well. See how they do selling Watkins without signing another centre forward last season. Again just can't really compare situations. They also don't have the same pressure and expectation we have. One thing Conte said right was our players don't like to play with pressure. Maybe he does better with Villa who knows.

Like I say I don't really know how you rate a manager against others unless they manage the same situation. Every club and situation is different. Conte and Jose win at other clubs but not us says it all really.

 

[olliec]

I really want to see some Gray and Bergvall today.

 

[Spurs_1981]

I didn’t say it doesn’t exist just that it’s a higher risk.

sure and I speculated the reason is that clubs are risk averse, they prefer tried and tested which is understandable but this creates a feedback loop. No one can prove themselves without opportunity, if no one has demonstrated it clubs don't take the risk.

 

[Shanks]

Primarily they would have hired him for his work in Scotland one would assume. The fact clubs are generally risk averse doesn't indicate that talent doesn't exist in those markets.

He has a season under his belt and finished a respectable 5th. There is at least some evidence he can compete in this league.

I'd suggest he was hired because of how he interviewed, his vision and how he would implement it within a particular budget etc..

His previous record may have assisted getting the interview in the interview in the first place though

 

[Spurs_1981]

I'd suggest he was hired because of how he interviewed, his vision and how he would implement it within a particular budget etc..

His previous record may have assisted getting the interview in the interview in the first place though

It goes hand in hand. Walking off the street with the same patter wouldn't secure the job. It was his experience and success that secured the opportunity. But yes, I'm certain he would have interviewed very well.

 

[muppetman]

There’s good points to consider in either side of this debate but at the end of the day, and imo this is undeniable, it was a massive risk for a club of our size, In the league we’re in, to hire a coach with Ange’s CV.

Then you have to ask why is that more of a risk and if you don’t think it is and it’s all the same it’s just football etc, why is hiring a coach like Ange to a club like Tottenham so rare and why don’t clubs do this all the time, it would be a lot cheaper to just hire every manager who’s won the league in leagues like Australia, Japan, Korea etc.

Is it more of a risk than hiring "I hate everyone" Conte or "I'm never at fault" Mourinho?

I think we've decided that we either can't or won't go toe to toe with Liverpool or Arsenal, let alone City, Chelsea or Man Utd when it comes to player cost and wages we pay.

We therefore need to do something a bit different - so invest a lot on the data analytics aspect to get to players before the world knows about them, and finally to take a punt on a coach who maybe doesn't have the pedigree, but does have experience of changing a club and getting them winning stuff and who wants to spend time coaching in our top class facilities.

I think managers who actively want to come in and turn things around are pretty rare - to really shake things up and upset some people. It certainly seems like Conte and Mourinho felt it just needed some minor tweaks which we now know to be wrong and didn't really have the stomach for a longer term battle.

 

[alfie103]

Is it more of a risk than hiring "I hate everyone" Conte or "I'm never at fault" Mourinho?

I think we've decided that we either can't or won't go toe to toe with Liverpool or Arsenal, let alone City, Chelsea or Man Utd when it comes to player cost and wages we pay.

We therefore need to do something a bit different - so invest a lot on the data analytics aspect to get to players before the world knows about them, and finally to take a punt on a coach who maybe doesn't have the pedigree, but does have experience of changing a club and getting them winning stuff and who wants to spend time coaching in our top class facilities.

I think managers who actively want to come in and turn things around are pretty rare - to really shake things up and upset some people. It certainly seems like Conte and Mourinho felt it just needed some minor tweaks which we now know to be wrong and didn't really have the stomach for a longer term battle.

Unfortunately, I don't think there is a different way. All the PL clubs will have data analytics and will be scouting for these players as well. There is a reason the clubs who have the highest wage bill and spend the most money are generally the winners of the league.

I believe under Levy, it will always be whatever he judges the best way to increase the club's value and I don't think he is particularly concerned if this approach means we win trophies or not.

 

[E17yid]

sure and I speculated the reason is that clubs are risk averse, they prefer tried and tested which is understandable but this creates a feedback loop. No one can prove themselves without opportunity, if no one has demonstrated it clubs don't take the risk.

Why do you think they’re risk averse with regards to what we’re discussing?

 

[E17yid]

Is it more of a risk than hiring "I hate everyone" Conte or "I'm never at fault" Mourinho?

Generally speaking I think it is yes. weirdly though, I didn’t want conte or Mourinho purely on vibes and gut feeling as I didn’t feel they were the right fit but conversely I think Ange is a good fit for us but you need more than that. It’s the same in most sectors. You want people who have operated at a high level in similar environments to the one you’re thinking of placing them into. It’s not the be all and end all but when weighing up the risk you’re going to take the less risky option in most cases.

 

[Spurs_1981]

Why do you think they’re risk averse with regards to what we’re discussing?

The fact Steve Bruce kept getting top flight jobs for years

 

[muppetman]

Generally speaking I think it is yes. weirdly though, I didn’t want conte or Mourinho purely on vibes and gut feeling as I didn’t feel they were the right fit but conversely I think Ange is a good fit for us but you need more than that. It’s the same in most sectors. You want people who have operated at a high level in similar environments to the one you’re thinking of placing them into. It’s not the be all and end all but when weighing up the risk you’re going to take the less risky option in most cases.

So, how does anyone get into those environments in the first place? Jose did well with Porto and got a promotion - not a million miles away from Celtic and us for Ange.

 

[E17yid]

So, how does anyone get into those environments in the first place? Jose did well with Porto and got a promotion - not a million miles away from Celtic and us for Ange.

You get there, normally, by climbing the ladder. I disagree with saying Jose’s Porto to Chelsea is not a million miles away (considering he won the most prestigious club tournament in world football) from Celtic to Spurs but we’ll just have to agree to disagree again.

 

[npearl4spurs]

He seems to have all the intangibles needed to succeed with us. I haven't seen many fans that can or want to disagree or argue with anything he says. He really wins you over with how straight to the point he is.

Then it comes down some other things. The tactics fit our club like a glove. We want to go for it and he does to. The evidence suggests the players still need to show more in this area in terms of scoring first IMO because scoring affects how you defend and how the other team, when losing, attacks.

Player recruitment remains a question mark. I like that we have bought young talent but we have to give Ange time to nurture it assuming it is the right level of talent to go on and achieve top end success. I am concerned that we show a lack of willingness to go for the best and seem snake-bitten on it as we have really missed on the players we have pushed the boat out for in recent years.

This is just me trying to draw conclusions, but I also wonder if Ange seems taken aback by how "fragile" the fan base is and how quickly the grumbles and complaints can turn up. But it seems apparent he faced a lot of that at Celtic too.

 

[E17yid]

This is just me trying to draw conclusions, but I also wonder if Ange seems taken aback by how "fragile" the fan base is and how quickly the grumbles and complaints can turn up. But it seems apparent he faced a lot of that at Celtic too.

I don’t think so, he’s mentioned several times how he’s been written off in every job he’s been in pretty much and I think he understands the fickle nature of your average football fan. If anything I think he expects it more at this level and he acknowledges the pressure and scrutiny is totally different at this level.

 

[npearl4spurs]

I don’t think so, he’s mentioned several times how he’s been written off in every job he’s been in pretty much and I think he understands the fickle nature of your average football fan. If anything I think he expects it more at this level and he acknowledges the pressure and scrutiny is totally different at this level.

Very good points. Still have that quote about "the foundations being fragile" echoing in my head.

 

[Gilzeanking]

Ok yea I get what you’re saying, completely good and fair points mate.

I like Ange and want him to succeed and think he could and needs time, I’m just being honest with my view that the PL is a huge step up and so far we are seeing that tactically since game 10 last season Ange is fairly regularly getting out coached and/or the players he has aren’t good enough to create and score enough chances so we are losing games as a result.

As for current PL manager rankings id go something like:
1. Pep
2. Emery
3. Arteta
4. Slot (Klopp last year would’ve ranked 2)
5. Howe
6. Ten Haag/Ange

Then you have managers like Thomas Frank & Nuno who suit the clubs they’re at, the Brighton manager looks promising but very early days and Maresca could be good.

That is my opinion on it.

Good post . These harsh realities have to be faced along with 7 Prem defeats out of 11 . Hoping Ange can develop and succeed tho.

I dunno about rating managers, but one who is quietly performing miracles imo is Iraola

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

That press conference last night really told a tale in my opinion.

His intransigence in changing his system is down to his self belief in said system. He believes in it wholeheartedly. He believes that it will click and we will win and until that's proven otherwise then he will stick to it as that's the way it has always been for him. Like the Chelsea game, I think he felt that it was more beneficial to keep to his beliefs than to change and perhaps lose some gravitas with the team. Yes, he's in a better league now than ever before but he has better players than ever before.

Every system has it's achilles heel though and the worry for me is that, when he comes up against a better class of manager then the wheels invariably come off. We may look at how the game played out on Sunday and say that Arteta paid him a compliment by sitting back and letting us have the ball but perhaps he just took the tried and tested route of beating an Ange team. His lack of success in Europe thought is worrying though it was with a Scottish premiership team (no disrespect intended).

I think he's been unlucky in the striker dept. Losing Harry at the start of the season. Richy's constant injuries and then Dom gets bought late and gets injured first game. I'll reserve judgement until we have a fit and firing forward line. If we can score a few more then we'll be better positioned to see how his system stacks up against the best of the best. As it stands teams sit back, hit us on the break and wait for set pieces then low block again. When we sort our attacking issues then we'll see what happens when teams have to force the game.

I'm still hopeful though. I like the man. I think he speaks a lot of sense and anyone who has such belief in the "BEAUTIFUL GAME" is OK in my book. This is why i'm Spurs. We play football a certain way. I could never support anyone else so i'm in it for the long haul.

Love this

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

So, how does anyone get into those environments in the first place? Jose did well with Porto and got a promotion - not a million miles away from Celtic and us for Ange.

Sir Alex with Aberdeen and Wenger in Japan, Eddie Howe Bournemouth, Pep started with Barca B etc etc

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

Utd and Arsenal win things and have done for a long time. It's a totally different prospect with Spurs who have won 3 trophies in 30 odd years. So again different situations, put Ange in a team with that winning belief maybe gets different results too. I don't think any manager should need to win a trophy to be afforded time tbh, it's an unlikely mission with what we provide to them.

Referring to current managers so yes Slot taking on a Klopp squad.

Not possible to say how another manager would do with City and their resources. Pep is top though but nobody can say what Ange would achieve there. Unlikely to win as much but who really knows, I'm sure he would win things. Point is you can't really compare.

Emery has done well at Villa but they were neck and neck with us with similar quality and he was there a bit longer as well. See how they do selling Watkins without signing another centre forward last season. Again just can't really compare situations. They also don't have the same pressure and expectation we have. One thing Conte said right was our players don't like to play with pressure. Maybe he does better with Villa who knows.

Like I say I don't really know how you rate a manager against others unless they manage the same situation. Every club and situation is different. Conte and Jose win at other clubs but not us says it all really.

Really good points.
Ratings are opinions but ultimately nothing is like for like comparable.

It’s like comparing F1 drivers. I think Hamilton is the best ever but we’ve seen if you give him a crap car he struggles to compete and win so it all depends on many factors, some managers are a good fit for certain clubs and not for others.

Take Nuno for example, not good for for us but did well with Wolves and now with Forest.

Ancelotti, amazing for AC Milan and Madrid and Chelsea but not great for Everton.

David Moyes great for Everton and West Ham, terrible for Man.U

and so on.

I think Big Ange is an almost perfect fit for us and our club, I just simply think he needs time
he needs some better attacking players
he needs to tweak his tactics a bit

How we do in Europe will be very interesting.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

I really want to see some Gray and Bergvall today.

Unless we win tonight Ange will get a lot of stick for whoever he selects either way.

It’s a must win game.

Let’s see how he manages it