Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

[fishhhandaricecake]

I think "probably" is doing a LOT of heavy lifting here. I'm sure someone posted earlier that before he arrived none of the teams bar maybe Celtic had shone. He got Australia to win a competition which they'd been nowhere near doing. I'd also like to know where the ranking is for "tactically astute managers" to see how he came in at 6th - if nothing else he managed to come 5th last season!

I'm also clearly not explaining myself well - I'm not saying that the Aussie league is on par with the PL. I'm saying the job he did then is relative to what he now has to do - take an unfancied team that aren't on the same level as their competitors and get them to win. He now has access to PL players, coaching staff and facilities - just as he had access to Japanese players, coaching staff and facilities as his competitors then.

I said he was probably the most tactically astute manager in each of the 3 previous leagues he’s managed in, I’d say he’s now about 5th-7th as it stands in terms of PL manager rankings.

Brisbane & Melbourne : success fully down to him being the best manager in said league

Japan : down to him being best manager in the league

Scotland : due to him being best manager in the league and having the best squad

PL/Tottenham : 6th best squad and around 5-7th best manager. Plus the entire league quality throughout is higher as are the top 4-5 teams.

He can succeed with us but it’s by far in a way the hardest job he’s ever had, but he’ll thrive on that challenge and it will motivate him to be the one to break our trophy duck.

 

[Shanks]

I did actually LOL at Slot being ranked 4th best manager though

 

[Styopa]

I said he was probably the most tactically astute manager in each of the 3 previous leagues he’s managed in, I’d say he’s now about 5th-7th as it stands in terms of PL manager rankings.

Brisbane & Melbourne : success fully down to him being the best manager in said league

Japan : down to him being best manager in the league

Scotland : due to him being best manager in the league and having the best squad

PL/Tottenham : 6th best squad and around 5-7th best manager. Plus the entire league quality throughout is higher as are the top 4-5 teams.

He can succeed with us but it’s by far in a way the hardest job he’s ever had, but he’ll thrive on that challenge and it will motivate him to be the one to break our trophy duck.

There are a couple of factors that make last season's performance particularly hard to assess:

1- Adjusting to life without Kane was a huge challenge. In the past, selling top players like Berbatov and Bale led to major disruption, but this time, we finished higher without Kane than we did the previous season with him. In fact, it was our second-highest league finish in the last five years, and second highest points total in five years.

2- However, there’s a big contrast between the first ten matches and everything that followed. While those opening games still matter, we've picked up just 44 points in the 32 matches since. That’s not relegation form, but if you project it over a full season, it’s the kind of total we saw during the days of Glenn Hoddle and George Graham.

If we maintain the trajectory we've been on since November 2023, we’d be heading for our lowest points total since the season we sacked Ramos after starting with just 2 points from 8 matches. Personally, I’d still back Ange even if that happens, but it would be tough to claim he’s performing at the level of the league’s top coaches in that scenario.

 

[mil1lion]

I don't know how one ranks a manager unless they have similar situations. Give Ange a Klopp built squad. Give him the 3 years Arteta had to build a young squad. Give him a fortune to spend on world class talent like Pep. I think we see how he competes with Haag and Emery , Chelsea manager still new to the league to judge. I think Ange will be in the mix for 4th come end of the season but like Utd, Chelsea and Villa results will be up and down. We could finish between 4th -7th with the squad we have. I don't think there's s definitive position either of those clubs belong. It could be pretty close like last season unless one of them pulls away from the pack.

 

[Ossie85]

This idea that the PL is so superior that skills aren't transferrable just doesn't work for me - motivating individuals, creating strong teams and giving them belief they can succeed is not so different at Yokohama or Celtic or Spurs.

That's because you seem to think the manager's role is only motivating.
I think our (lack) of defense tactics is living proof that the difference between leagues is not just about the quality of players.
In the SPL and with Celtic is clear that is was enough to be good offensively. In the EPL, it's clear it's not. And so far it doesn't seem Ange knows what to do with our defense.
And it's 100% tactics. We have great defenders

 

[Styopa]

I don't know how one ranks a manager unless they have similar situations. Give Ange a Klopp built squad. Give him the 3 years Arteta had to build a young squad. Give him a fortune to spend on world class talent like Pep. I think we see how he competes with Haag and Emery , Chelsea manager still new to the league to judge. I think Ange will be in the mix for 4th come end of the season but like Utd, Chelsea and Villa results will be up and down. We could finish between 4th -7th with the squad we have. I don't think there's s definitive position either of those clubs belong. It could be pretty close like last season unless one of them pulls away from the pack.

The thing about Arteta, who’s frequently held up as a model to emulate here, is that he was mocked and ridiculed for years, with many—including on this forum—questioning his ability. The reason he’s no longer facing such criticism is that he’s since proven himself by turning Arsenal into serious contenders. The same could be said of many coaches, with the reverse holding also. That's just the way it works in football.

 

[muppetman]

That's because you seem to think the manager's role is only motivating.
I think our (lack) of defense tactics is living proof that the difference between leagues is not just about the quality of players.
In the SPL and with Celtic is clear that is was enough to be good offensively. In the EPL, it's clear it's not. And so far it doesn't seem Ange knows what to do with our defense.
And it's 100% tactics. We have great defenders

I don't think his role is "only" motivating. It's also clearly coaching and tactics, setting up a team and so on - I just think the gaps between managers is largely about players and not tactics - the individual quality of the players and their ability to function as a unit. As I say, until i see Pep (or similar) take a team like Southampton to the CL and he shows he can dominate teams with their players I'll continue to think this. It'll be interesting to see how Kompany does at Bayern rather than Burnley as another example.

There is also nothing to stop someone being tactically astute just because they come from a "lesser league".

Things aren't quite clicking at the moment, but I just don't think we are a million miles away.

 

[Ossie85]

Give Ange a Klopp built squad. Give him the 3 years Arteta had to build a young squad. Give him a fortune to spend on world class talent like Pep. I think we see how he competes with Haag and Emery

• Ten Haag and Arteta were terrible in their first years (ETH still is), but they saved their jobs by winning things. Arteta won an FA Cup in his first year. ETH won a League Cup in his 1st year and an FA Cup in his second. We'd be happy with either of those scenarios imo
• I don't get the Klopp reference. You are implying Ange needs someone else to build his squad. Or is this about Arne Slot?
• There's very few managers that could match what Pep does. Ange is not one of them. He could have unlimited money that he would not be on that level.
• I think Emery has done better than us with arguably less quality

 

[Impspur1]

Interesting stuff coming out today. Definite feeling that Ange knows we’re not right at the minute. Hope he has some choices to make after tonight because a couple of stand out displays could really benefit us moving forward, thinking specifically Gray and Bergval who I would love to see start league games

 

[Marty]

Interesting stuff coming out today. Definite feeling that Ange knows we’re not right at the minute. Hope he has some choices to make after tonight because a couple of stand out displays could really benefit us moving forward, thinking specifically Gray and Bergval who I would love to see start league games

I'm absolutely convinced that if Maddison doesn't get his shit together again soon, Bergvall will come in for him with Kulusevski staying as the other 8.

 

[Styopa]

As I say, until i see Pep (or similar) take a team like Southampton to the CL and he shows he can dominate teams with their players I'll continue to think this. It'll be interesting to see how Kompany does at Bayern rather than Burnley as another example.

A fairer comparison would be to take two evenly matched teams with similar resources and assess how they perform under their respective coaches over a set period.

Even then, some coaches might be better suited for specific roles. There may be coaches who excel with lower-placed teams to the extent they could "outcoach" someone like Pep in keeping teams in the league.

Someone like Nuno might be highly effective at keeping Forest in the league, whereas Ange's high line could be disastrous at that club.

 

[Impspur1]

I'm absolutely convinced that if Maddison doesn't get his shit together again soon, Bergvall will come in for him with Kulusevski staying as the other 8.

Yeah me too, it’s games like tonight where he can show why he should start and really give Ange a question to answer. I do wonder if Ange has actually been waiting for games like tonight to really test the youngsters with a view to then integrating them in the first 11 after investing so much in them and continually bigging the kids up

 

[Marty]

Yeah me too, it’s games like tonight where he can show why he should start and really give Ange a question to answer. I do wonder if Ange has actually been waiting for games like tonight to really test the youngsters with a view to then integrating them in the first 11 after investing so much in them and continually bigging the kids up

Yeah, I think tonight and against Qarabag next week are the games Ange has thought "here is Bergvall's chance". A full pre-season plus some sub appearances to get used to the level, and then go.

That goes for Gray and maybe Moore as well tbh, but I don't think Mikey will start either game just yet.

 

[Rob]

Read the post properly. “(picking first XI and back-ups not best combination as that is unrealistic)”

There's Dawson and Woodgate. Whichever of them you consider backup, you've got Rocha over?

 

[E17yid]

I don't think his role is "only" motivating. It's also clearly coaching and tactics, setting up a team and so on - I just think the gaps between managers is largely about players and not tactics - the individual quality of the players and their ability to function as a unit. As I say, until i see Pep (or similar) take a team like Southampton to the CL and he shows he can dominate teams with their players I'll continue to think this. It'll be interesting to see how Kompany does at Bayern rather than Burnley as another example.

There is also nothing to stop someone being tactically astute just because they come from a "lesser league".

Things aren't quite clicking at the moment, but I just don't think we are a million miles away.

There’s good points to consider in either side of this debate but at the end of the day, and imo this is undeniable, it was a massive risk for a club of our size, In the league we’re in, to hire a coach with Ange’s CV.

Then you have to ask why is that more of a risk and if you don’t think it is and it’s all the same it’s just football etc, why is hiring a coach like Ange to a club like Tottenham so rare and why don’t clubs do this all the time, it would be a lot cheaper to just hire every manager who’s won the league in leagues like Australia, Japan, Korea etc.

 

[1971 Spur]

That press conference last night really told a tale in my opinion.

His intransigence in changing his system is down to his self belief in said system. He believes in it wholeheartedly. He believes that it will click and we will win and until that's proven otherwise then he will stick to it as that's the way it has always been for him. Like the Chelsea game, I think he felt that it was more beneficial to keep to his beliefs than to change and perhaps lose some gravitas with the team. Yes, he's in a better league now than ever before but he has better players than ever before.

Every system has it's achilles heel though and the worry for me is that, when he comes up against a better class of manager then the wheels invariably come off. We may look at how the game played out on Sunday and say that Arteta paid him a compliment by sitting back and letting us have the ball but perhaps he just took the tried and tested route of beating an Ange team. His lack of success in Europe thought is worrying though it was with a Scottish premiership team (no disrespect intended).

I think he's been unlucky in the striker dept. Losing Harry at the start of the season. Richy's constant injuries and then Dom gets bought late and gets injured first game. I'll reserve judgement until we have a fit and firing forward line. If we can score a few more then we'll be better positioned to see how his system stacks up against the best of the best. As it stands teams sit back, hit us on the break and wait for set pieces then low block again. When we sort our attacking issues then we'll see what happens when teams have to force the game.

I'm still hopeful though. I like the man. I think he speaks a lot of sense and anyone who has such belief in the "BEAUTIFUL GAME" is OK in my book. This is why i'm Spurs. We play football a certain way. I could never support anyone else so i'm in it for the long haul.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

There's Dawson and Woodgate. Whichever of them you consider backup, you've got Rocha over?

Fair enough, I considered them rotation with King rather than back-up if I'm honest but semantics.

 

[Spurs_1981]

There’s good points to consider in either side of this debate but at the end of the day, and imo this is undeniable, it was a massive risk for a club of our size, In the league we’re in, to hire a coach with Ange’s CV.

Then you have to ask why is that more of a risk and if you don’t think it is and it’s all the same it’s just football etc, why is hiring a coach like Ange to a club like Tottenham so rare and why don’t clubs do this all the time, it would be a lot cheaper to just hire every manager who’s won the league in leagues like Australia, Japan, Korea etc.

Primarily they would have hired him for his work in Scotland one would assume. The fact clubs are generally risk averse doesn't indicate that talent doesn't exist in those markets.

He has a season under his belt and finished a respectable 5th. There is at least some evidence he can compete in this league.

 

[Neon_Knight_]

That's because you seem to think the manager's role is only motivating.
I think our (lack) of defense tactics is living proof that the difference between leagues is not just about the quality of players.
In the SPL and with Celtic is clear that is was enough to be good offensively. In the EPL, it's clear it's not. And so far it doesn't seem Ange knows what to do with our defense.
And it's 100% tactics. We have great defenders

If we have "great defenders", why have the majority of our goals conceded this season been the result of individual errors, rather than tactical shortcomings?

What our defenders are "great" at is cutting out attacks that result from our high line and at contributing to our build-up play / offence. I rate each of our starting defenders overall, but at the same time they each have shortcomings that make me question how "great" they currently are defensively. None of them have reached their theoretical peak years yet, so I'm hopeful that if we keep this unit together they can become a truly great defence for years to come.

Romero performs like a world class CB a lot of the time, but seems to have a lapse in concentration during most games, which is the difference between him and a truly world class CB. I have no stats to back this up, but I would guess he has made significantly more individual mistakes leading to goals conceded during his 13 months under Ange than Alderweireld (a "great" CB imo) did in 6 years with us.

VDV is possibly the quickest CB in the world and does an awful lot well, but his stats for aerial duels and headed clearances are worrying (especially considering our issues defending set pieces).

Porro is very good at chasing back to make last ditch tackles / blocks, but gets caught out of position too often (this could be partly blamed on our system) and is not "great" at marking or tracking runs.

Udogie is generally good defensively, but seems to switch off at times and gets caught in possession in dangerous positions more often than I would like.

Vicario is a very good shot-stopper, but clearly isn't dominant enough on set pieces.

I don't think a change of system (e.g. to more of a Mourinho / Conte style system) would do much to address any of the shortcomings mentioned above. Coaching and experience will though, and time is on their side. In the meantime, we need to start converting chances at the other end of the pitch, so that the odd defensive error/lapse (which all teams make) doesn't cost us points.

 

[E17yid]

Primarily they would have hired him for his work in Scotland one would assume. The fact clubs are generally risk averse doesn't indicate that talent doesn't exist in those markets.

He has a season under his belt and finished a respectable 5th. There is at least some evidence he can compete in this league.

I didn’t say it doesn’t exist just that it’s a higher risk.