Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

[Metalhead]

Fine, I'll just own up and add myself to this. I don't want him to fail. I don't want another change in manager. I want this to all work. But I think it's inevitable.

Therefore I'll do my very best to stop banging this drum and just cross my fingers I'm wrong.

Fair play, I couldn't imagine not having some optimism. It would be a drag just marking time until next May.

 

[parj]

Here is a question.... What one thing in the way we play do we think Ange needs to adjust the most to give us a chance of being better?

For me, it's the defensive line. No VDV, drop the defensive line 10 yards.

 

[Gassin's finest]

Fair play, I couldn't imagine not having some optimism. It would be a drag just marking time until next May.

I think I'm still fairly unengaged with Spurs, and football in particular. I catch the games when I can, but its not effecting my bearing like it used to. I'm patient enough to just take it as it comes, but I've seen the cycle too many times over the last 30 odd years.

 

[Whazam]

It's a good example to bring up.

Rice is a top PL player but still attainable for a club like arsenal because he wouldn't have demanded over 200k to sign up.

It was all about the project.

I'm certain that had a player like Rice been a target for Poch back when we were at our peak, he'd have wanted to join.

Unfortunately, we aren't prepared to do that kind of deal.

Noone, or at least hardly anyone, expects us to get on top and then drop 120m (300k salary) on a player like Williams or Osimhen.

However, there is a bracket of player just below that, that would be attainable but unfortunately we just won't ever see that outlay on a special kind of player.

We are more likely to get into a great position and continue to find players who are promising and could go up another level.

Therefore we won't get over the line because we haven't put our foot down.

Arsenal were signing the likes of Partey, Odegaard even during their rise, again, we won't do deals like that.

Again, it'll take longer for us because we need these players to develop first.

What kind of players would you put in this bracket, today? Could you give some examples?

 

[Gassin's finest]

Here is a question.... What one thing in the way we play do we think Ange needs to adjust the most to give us a chance of being better?

For me, it's the defensive line. No VDV, drop the defensive line 10 yards.

Stop pushing the full backs up into the attack, and overworking the midfield. The way the central midfield is utilised is always key.

 

[night-watchman]

If our forwards click we are going really start dishing out some hidings.

People keep bemoaning the tactics and high line, but that’s not going to change, so they either need to build a bridge and get over it, or just admit to themselves and us that they want a change of manager. He’s not going to suddenly change the way he’s always played the game.

We are an attacking side, we play some lovely stuff, and that’s clearly not only the brief he’s been given, but also how he sees the game should be played. We are a team with an identity and a clear plan of how we want to go about things, it’s pretty obvious what needs to be done, both on the pitch and in the transfer market to make this plan work.

We should not change how we play, we just need to get better at how we do it. There will be a lot of bumps on this road, and this season is going to be long and hard imo. But I’m fully behind the manager, and the way he wants us to play. At this point in the process I don’t really care if we are easy to play against, or vulnerable to certain tactics.

I’d far rather watch us lose like yesterday actually trying to win a game, than capitulate against AC Milan at home in the champions league like a couple of seasons ago. Playing for a draw when we need a goal.

This is the post right here.

 

[Styopa]

Fair play, I couldn't imagine not having some optimism. It would be a drag just marking time until next May.

I’ll admit, I completely lost my optimism at a certain point when Mourinho and Conte were in charge. It wasn’t even about whether we won or lost—I just didn’t want to watch the matches anymore. I lost all enthusiasm for seeing us play. That's not their entire times in charge. I was excited when Mourinho was appointed and enjoyed the first season under Conte.

With Ange, I actually look forward to watching the matches each week, even though it can be frustrating at times. I’m not overly confident about some of our upcoming games, but I’m still excited for them—and that makes a huge difference.


Of course, it's also about finding the right balance. Even with Ange, I’d get frustrated if mid-table form became the norm, despite the entertaining football. Coaches like Jol, Redknapp, and Pochettino managed to play a style that most fans enjoyed while also making the team more competitive. That combination always made their projects feel more sustainable compared to managers who played a style of football which most fans did not enjoy.

TL;DR: I believe there's a ceiling for us due to factors outside the manager's control. However, there are more and less exciting paths to reaching it, and I find Ange's approach much more exciting. That gives me hope for the season ahead.

 

[Mr Pink]

I even think we're so over crowded in the final third sometimes, we've too many options which causes indecision, getting in each others way and generally being slower with our pass and move.

And ultimately we're easy to defend against.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

I think Ange will fail, because his current tactics are unworkable and he doesn’t have the will or talent to adapt them, but we won’t have to start all over again. The squad we have is capable of excellent performances as it is, if we just played normal football. Any half decent coach would have us doing very well very quickly. I’m happy to wait until next season.

Absolutely fine for people to doubt Ange or think he might he fail, everyone is entitled to their opinion, where I think this wording is harsh is that you’ve said he doesn’t have the will or talent to change.

He’s clearly a talented manager and he’s clearly got an incredible determination and will to win, if you’d said he’s too stubborn to change then fair enough.

Tbh I’m a huge fan of Ange but I too am a bit concerned about the tactics as they require every player to be absolutely on it for the whole 90-100 minutes and they require much better players in terms of attacking qualities and I’m not sure we will ever give Ange that.

With Celtic in Europe his teams went for it against Real Madrid and Leipzig and it looked ambitious but they got absolutely pummelled on the break especially against Leipzig who scored a few carbon copies of the 2nd goal that Newcastle scored against last weekend.

There have been some very positive improvements in our performances and for the most part we ‘dominated’ all 3 matches but didn’t take our chances, either due to lack of quality, finishing and decision making from our attacking players or because we didn’t create higher enough quality chances.

But I’ve seen enough positives to outweigh the concerns that Ange should be given a really good amount of time to show us what he can do and I hope this Jan and next summer he gets backed with players to take us to the next level like Klopp got with Allison & VVD and Arteta got with Rice,Havertz etc, I don’t we would spend that level of money and wages but if we can get close to that with a few more players of at least Solanke level, one wing forward, one centre midfielder and a top left back to compete with Udogie and ideally another striker to replace Richarlison then I think Ange’s style of play could get a lot more consistent results.

For now the football is also very enjoyable to watch, Ange represents the club well and we are signing mostly good technical young players who should be able to adapt to another manager in the future who plays a similar style of football perhaps just no quite as gung ho so either way short and longer term I think we can be reasonably positive.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

I even think we're so over crowded in the final third sometimes, we've too many options which causes indecision, getting in each others way and generally being slower with our pass and move.

And ultimately we're easy to defend against.

That’s is a really interesting point mate, I thought this the other day too, Liverpool under Slot attack much more simply just with the front 3 and then perhaps one CM and/or one full back advancing a bit but it’s more of a front 3 rather than a front 5-6.

I know modern coaches love this whole get 5-6 players against the opponents back line to stretch them and to fill the gaps so they have to defend and cover lots of ‘zones’ but imo I agree with you that attacking like that consistently can actually be easier to defend against as it just clogs up the space to attack into.

 

[Trix]

Stop pushing the full backs up into the attack, and overworking the midfield. The way the central midfield is utilised is always key.

I don't have a problem with inverting the full backs, or them coming inside and playing high up the pitch. I do have a problem with them being as far advanced as the CF. There have been numerous times when I've watched them basically make a straight line 5 man front line with the CF and two wide players across the opponents 18 yard line, and all this does is add to the congestion in the final third. It also makes it impossible for them to recover on the turn over. get them in the half spaces fine, and let the make runs also, but just one at a time not in tandem leaving us with two players to foil every counter attack.

 

[Gassin's finest]

I don't have a problem with inverting the full backs, or them coming inside and playing high up the pitch. I do have a problem with them being as far advanced as the CF. There have been numerous times when I've watched them basically make a straight line 5 man front line with the CF and two wide players across the opponents 18 yard line, and all this does is add to the congestion in the final third. It also makes it impossible for them to recover on the turn over. get them in the half spaces fine, and let the make runs also, but just one at a time not in tandem leaving us with two players to foil every counter attack.

Exactamundo.

 

[Joshua shepherd]

Yep appreciate the context but aside from that I don't think that right now he is quite at the level we need to be challenging for titles which is what Ange wants. That is no slight on him as a player because he is only 21 and frankly I think given last season he played a completely new and difficult position (inverted full back) in a new team, league and country, he did remarkably well, I just don't think that he is say at Porro's level, I think he can be in a few seasons time but I'm just saying that if we are looking at our team absolutely honestly and objectively as if we were Ange and he is thinking which areas could I improve now or in the future to take us up to title contenders then I don't think I'm wrong in saying that if we'd signed a top class specialist LB that player wouldn't have improved us and Udogie being only 21 would still get a ton of games but would act more as the younger understudy this season.

I have seen Udogie get caught out of position quite a few times and personally I don't think he does enough going forwards or on the ball compared to Porro and in those inverted full-back positions we really need very creative attacking players especially given the fact that our wingers aren't really at the level we need them to be.

Last season : Udogie 2 goals 3 assists, Porro 3 goals 7 assists, granted Udogie did play less games than Porro but its more the eye test that I'm giving my opinion anyway.

Your reaction makes me think you don't quite get where I was coming from.

Udogie is class, I love the bloke, he's a top top player and has exceeded expectations and will continue to improve, he is very close to the level we need him to be but if we are looking at areas we could've really pushed on to try to be title contenders then honestly I'd say a top class ready to go in their prime quality LB, CDM, WF and more reliable striker than Richy needed to have been purchased, we are about 4 top players off where we need to be plus a couple of fringe upgrades like 4th CB and back-up GK, imo ofc.

I don’t disagree but two points:

Firstly we’re not a better left back away from challenging from titles, we could have Roberto Carlos and we’d still be miles off in the league.

Secondly, there are very, very few better left backs around. Look at all the premier league teams, City play a cb out of position there, Arsenal do the same but with a right back as they don’t trust Zinchenko anymore, and United are still relying on shaw who averages about 18 games a season.

The only LB of proper quality is Robertson who’s getting on and will need to be replaced soon. I just don’t know who you could improve udogie with.

 

[Joshua shepherd]

Vicario

Walker
Toby
Jan
Udogie

Wanyama
Dembele
Modric

Bale
Kane
Son

Lloris.

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

If our forwards click we are going really start dishing out some hidings.

People keep bemoaning the tactics and high line, but that’s not going to change, so they either need to build a bridge and get over it, or just admit to themselves and us that they want a change of manager. He’s not going to suddenly change the way he’s always played the game.

We are an attacking side, we play some lovely stuff, and that’s clearly not only the brief he’s been given, but also how he sees the game should be played. We are a team with an identity and a clear plan of how we want to go about things, it’s pretty obvious what needs to be done, both on the pitch and in the transfer market to make this plan work.

We should not change how we play, we just need to get better at how we do it. There will be a lot of bumps on this road, and this season is going to be long and hard imo. But I’m fully behind the manager, and the way he wants us to play. At this point in the process I don’t really care if we are easy to play against, or vulnerable to certain tactics.

I’d far rather watch us lose like yesterday actually trying to win a game, than capitulate against AC Milan at home in the champions league like a couple of seasons ago. Playing for a draw when we need a goal.

Agree with all this, especially the bolded part. This is where patience is required by the fans and the board.

I've actually seen a progression this season. We are better at set pieces - both defending and attacking. Our press seems more coordinated and relentless. We're getting in behind the defensive line more regularly of teams that have tried to stifle us. Overall in the 3 matches we've played - bar a 20 minutes brain fart versus Leicester - we have been very dominant. I think with some slight tweaks to the system, players who returned late after international tournaments getting up to speed with their match fitness, and hopefully having a proven striker return to the team to start converting some of theses chances. We are really going to begin smashing some teams.

Yeah, we'll still have some frustrating performances, but i've seen enough progression from last season in these opening three matches to give me belief we'll have a good season.

 

[mil1lion]

Vicario

Walker
Toby
Jan
Udogie

Wanyama
Dembele
Modric

Bale
Kane
Son

To compete with City which is where we want to be we need more than an 11 though. If we want to compete at the very top on all fronts we need something like Lloris, Vicario, Udogie, Rose, Walker, Porro, VdV, Vertonghen, Romero, Alderweireld, Modric, Dembele, Wanyama, Bergvall, Gray, Odobert, Bale, Lennon, Son, Van Der Vaart, Eriksen, Kane, Solanke.

 

[thekneaf]

I think Ange just needs to get better at subbing players off when they're gassed. Maddison specifically for me. He drops off after 60 with all the pressing and running he does. When anyone is a beat late on the press we're at risk of getting played through.

 

[E17yid]

Absolutely fine for people to doubt Ange or think he might he fail, everyone is entitled to their opinion, where I think this wording is harsh is that you’ve said he doesn’t have the will or talent to change.

He’s clearly a talented manager and he’s clearly got an incredible determination and will to win, if you’d said he’s too stubborn to change then fair enough.

Tbh I’m a huge fan of Ange but I too am a bit concerned about the tactics as they require every player to be absolutely on it for the whole 90-100 minutes and they require much better players in terms of attacking qualities and I’m not sure we will ever give Ange that.

With Celtic in Europe his teams went for it against Real Madrid and Leipzig and it looked ambitious but they got absolutely pummelled on the break especially against Leipzig who scored a few carbon copies of the 2nd goal that Newcastle scored against last weekend.

There have been some very positive improvements in our performances and for the most part we ‘dominated’ all 3 matches but didn’t take our chances, either due to lack of quality, finishing and decision making from our attacking players or because we didn’t create higher enough quality chances.

But I’ve seen enough positives to outweigh the concerns that Ange should be given a really good amount of time to show us what he can do and I hope this Jan and next summer he gets backed with players to take us to the next level like Klopp got with Allison & VVD and Arteta got with Rice,Havertz etc, I don’t we would spend that level of money and wages but if we can get close to that with a few more players of at least Solanke level, one wing forward, one centre midfielder and a top left back to compete with Udogie and ideally another striker to replace Richarlison then I think Ange’s style of play could get a lot more consistent results.

For now the football is also very enjoyable to watch, Ange represents the club well and we are signing mostly good technical young players who should be able to adapt to another manager in the future who plays a similar style of football perhaps just no quite as gung ho so either way short and longer term I think we can be reasonably positive.

I don’t want to sound mean as I like him and I’m still pretty optimistic, but for me the jury is out on whether he’s a top manager. People can say what they like about how he’s won everywhere he’s gone and they can call me a snob but winning in a sub standard 2 team Scottish league and Japan and Australia doesn’t cut it for me. To prove he’s among the best he’s got to show it among the best and that means us.

If he’s given 2 more years with us and wins fuck all and we don’t finish higher than 8th then I think, depending on how it plays out exactly, that he’s not a top end manager that’s not cut out for this level.

As I say, though, that’s all a big if, I like him and think he’ll adapt and turn it around but at the moment he’s not “clearly a talented manager” he’s a manger that came in and had a good little bounce at the start of his first big job but we’ve been very poor since then. Plenty of time to turn it around but the results and performances have generally been dog shit since November.

 

[mil1lion]

Strongly disagree. We are not the best. If he wins nothing he goes with Jose, Conte or even Poch who had a better team. All top managers with a team that hasn't won much in the last 30 years or shown the ambition too. I reckon put Ange in the City dugout and he wins titles , maybe not as many as Pep but they would.

 

[E17yid]

Strongly disagree. We are not the best. If he wins nothing he goes with Jose, Conte or even Poch who had a better team. All top managers with a team that hasn't won much in the last 30 years or shown the ambition too. I reckon put Ange in the City dugout and he wins titles , maybe not as many as Pep but they would.

I’d judge him more on league position than cups as you’re right, it would be harsh to say he’s a failure to not win anything at Spurs.

At the moment he’s done nothing to suggest he’s in Pep’s league but he’s also not had the same opportunities. He’s got a great opportunity with us, though.