Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

[-Afri-Coy-]

They could only go out and splash as much as they did on VVD and Alisson because Barca gave them £105m of the Neymar money for Coutinho, without that there's no way FSG would sanction those deals.

Just like we got £100 million for Kane?

 

[-Afri-Coy-]

Agree with your points but worth pointing out that Klopp became manager in October 2015, Countiho was sold was sold summer 17, whilst VVD was signed Jan 2018 and Alisson in the summer 2018. Ange had his best player sold the eve of the new season. Arteta had to wait several windows of treading water to start moulding the squad before bigger better players were signed.

WE'VE GOT TO TRUST THE PROCESS THIS TIME

I’m 100% behind the manager for as long as he’s the manager of my team, and I believe in the vision. It’s just some tweaks and adjustments that will really help us along the way.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

I think some of our individual defenders are slightly overrated by fans. Don't get me wrong, they're all very good. But we also had some excellent defenders in the past, like King, Walker, Vertonghen, Alderweireld and Rose. Even the likes of Assou-Ekotto and Corluka weren't too shabby.

However, we've just come out of a phase where we depended on players like Dier, Davies, and Emerson. While I mean no disrespect to these three, who are exemplary professionals, it’s understandable that we now view Udogie, Porro, and Micky as something of a revelation.

Another major other issue is our midfield. I think we are still too easy to play through in midfield, which puts pressure on our defenders.

Completely agree. I think as well as lacking probably 2 top quality players in attack, we also need a top n.o6/CDM and a top LB & CB.

Controversial take but I don’t think Udogie right now is good enough, in an ideal world we sign a Porto equivalent level LB and let Udogie be the young back-up who continues to develop. I also think that Romero is a tad too erratic and it costs us at times.

But the attack is certainly still where the main weakness is, the defenders have a hard job on transition having to cover huge distances and spaces and the full backs having to invert so much requires a very unique specialist player.

These improvements are really to take us to challenge for the title, we have a squad capable of top6 but I think our fans would like to see us back to where we were under peak Poch and that will take a bit more time for these younger players to develop and for us to add some better quality signings moving forwards.

 

[funkycoldmedina]

Liverpool finished 4th in Klopp's first full season. They signed Van Dijk in the winter transfer window of the following season and ended that campaign in 4th place as well. They even made the finals of the Europa and League Cup during Klopp's first partial season. That kind of record sweetens the pill of a "painful rebuild".

Playing about a bit with the facts on that one. He joined Liverpool in Oct 2015 and VVD joined in Jan 2018, that's 2 1/4 years (27 months), quite a bit of time to assess and build. Ange has been in 14 months.

 

[HildoSpur]

Completely agree. I think as well as lacking probably 2 top quality players in attack, we also need a top n.o6/CDM and a top LB & CB.

Controversial take but I don’t think Udogie right now is good enough, in an ideal world we sign a Porto equivalent level LB and let Udogie be the young back-up who continues to develop. I also think that Romero is a tad too erratic and it costs us at times.

But the attack is certainly still where the main weakness is, the defenders have a hard job on transition having to cover huge distances and spaces and the full backs having to invert so much requires a very unique specialist player.

These improvements are really to take us to challenge for the title, we have a squad capable of top6 but I think our fans would like to see us back to where we were under peak Poch and that will take a bit more time for these younger players to develop and for us to add some better quality signings moving forwards.

Udogie is coming back from serious injury and surgery and didn't have any pre-season. It is going to take a few more matches before he is close to being match fit. He proved last year that he is more than good enough. It's actually disappointing (but sadly not surprising) to see somebody write this given the context.

 

[Albertbarich]

Completely agree. I think as well as lacking probably 2 top quality players in attack, we also need a top n.o6/CDM and a top LB & CB.

Controversial take but I don’t think Udogie right now is good enough, in an ideal world we sign a Porto equivalent level LB and let Udogie be the young back-up who continues to develop. I also think that Romero is a tad too erratic and it costs us at times.

But the attack is certainly still where the main weakness is, the defenders have a hard job on transition having to cover huge distances and spaces and the full backs having to invert so much requires a very unique specialist player.

These improvements are really to take us to challenge for the title, we have a squad capable of top6 but I think our fans would like to see us back to where we were under peak Poch and that will take a bit more time for these younger players to develop and for us to add some better quality signings moving forwards.

Well paul O’keefe is saying the plan Is to drop the wage bill even further so any top class replacements will have to be punts that we develop it seems

 

[Bobbins]

The fact that we're evn discussing giving Ange the boot is crazy. The spurs fans doing that are part of the problem and are contributing to our lack of success. The negativity seeps into the team and further into the psyche of the fans and it's a vicious circle.

We fans really need to change our mindset for this season.

We have cleared the decks and have obviously bought players for a team that will peak in 2-3 years. (possibly with no Man city or Pep about either btw.) We need to try and keep thereabouts during that time, but I wouldn't expect any major success until then.

If fans can accept that, then they Have to give Ange the time.

Again with the creative writing.

Absolutely no-one is talking about sacking Ange. Absolutely no-one.

You've completely made that up, blamed Spurs fans for creating negativity which they literally haven't done, and then said that's one of the reasons we don't have success.

This is insane. Bunch of positive ratings for this fairy story as well.

Show me where people are discussing "giving Ange the boot" right now. You can't.

I am properly sick of fans blaming other fans for the failures of the team and more importantly, the owners. Stop gaslighting your fellow supporters!

 

[Albertbarich]

Again with the creative writing.

Absolutely no-one is talking about sacking Ange. Absolutely no-one.

You've completely made that up, blamed Spurs fans for creating negativity which they literally haven't done, and then said that's one of the reasons we don't have success.

This is insane. Bunch of positive ratings for this fairy story as well.

Show me where people are discussing "giving Ange the boot" right now. You can't.

I am properly sick of fans blaming other fans for the failures of the team and more importantly, the owners. Stop gaslighting your fellow supporters!

Nobody is saying that you’re right, but we have been here before. The honeymoon period has ended and now we’re picking holes, couple more bad results and that movement grows.

im gutted about yesterday but actually compare our side to Newcastle and it’s not exactly a disgraceful result. Whether you want to say it’s due to under investment or inexperience, we look every bit an upper mid table side but I don’t think that changes no matter who the manager is

 

[BENNO]

Well paul O’keefe is saying the plan Is to drop the wage bill even further so any top class replacements will have to be punts that we develop it seems

Yeah i saw POK saying that, but his take on things makes little sense to me - he was saying we are deliberately dropping the wage bill so as to bump up the price for a sale. Can't have that myself, our wage to turnover ration was the lowest in the league in 2022 and must be either lowest or 2nd lowest now. Lowering further by a couple of percent will be the difference of £10m a season from a £500m income - but if we could turn into a winning team, or at least be seen as a club who was virtually guaranteed CL each season, that'd increase the value of the club by way more than lowering the wage bill imo (based on absolutely no knowledge of how a business works....but would be interested to see if someone who does have knowledge agrees or disagrees ?).

 

[ljinko888]

The way I see it a lot of the time watching us play is like watching a boxing match where one fighter looks more on the front foot, looks more lively on the feet, looks like they have the other fighter where you want them to be. But there isn't actually a heavy blow or a series of hits that will make the scorecard for that round look like it was anything more than cagey. When a boxer has their opponent on the ropes you'd think this is the decisive time to finish it off but how many times is that opportunity passed up and the other guy gets a reprieve. Again that's like watching Spurs play football. For all our territorial dominance (60%+ ball possession, winning the ball back high, getting into those positions either side of the box with lots of bodies forward) it doesn't actually amount to many clear chances. That's why our XG is not actually that high given what looked like one-way traffic. And when we had them on the ropes all it took was Joelinton to beat our press and pass through the halfway line and it's 2-1.

We do not actually cause our opponents that much danger when we push them back and if they can ride it out they know their are chinks in our armour to exploit.

 

[Albertbarich]

Yeah i saw POK saying that, but his take on things makes little sense to me - he was saying we are deliberately dropping the wage bill so as to bump up the price for a sale. Can't have that myself, our wage to turnover ration was the lowest in the league in 2022 and must be either lowest or 2nd lowest now. Lowering further by a couple of percent will be the difference of £10m a season from a £500m income - but if we could turn into a winning team, or at least be seen as a club who was virtually guaranteed CL each season, that'd increase the value of the club by way more than lowering the wage bill imo (based on absolutely no knowledge of how a business works....but would be interested to see if someone who does have knowledge agrees or disagrees ?).

I think we’re going to see footballers wages (rightly) drop anyway and if they want investment from an equity firm that won’t want to get involved and are there purely for profit then it makes sense I guess that they want the balance books looking as healthy as possible. I think ?

 

[Styopa]

Playing about a bit with the facts on that one. He joined Liverpool in Oct 2015 and VVD joined in Jan 2018, that's 2 1/4 years (27 months), quite a bit of time to assess and build. Ange has been in 14 months.

I haven't played about with the facts, which as I understand them are:

2015-16 (Klopp joined in October)
2016-17 (first full season)
2017-18 (second full season - VVD joined halfway through the season)

Which is essentially what I wrote, just in different words.

But anyway, I’m not disputing that Klopp was in the job longer when VVD joined than Ange has been. Obviously he was. Although he had already made two finals and qualified for the Champions League in that time.

Just to clarify, that’s not meant as a criticism of Ange. It’s just that when you mentioned the "painful" rebuild, I couldn’t help but think that reaching two finals and finishing 4th somewhat eases the pain.

 

[PaulM]

Yeah i saw POK saying that, but his take on things makes little sense to me - he was saying we are deliberately dropping the wage bill so as to bump up the price for a sale. Can't have that myself, our wage to turnover ration was the lowest in the league in 2022 and must be either lowest or 2nd lowest now. Lowering further by a couple of percent will be the difference of £10m a season from a £500m income - but if we could turn into a winning team, or at least be seen as a club who was virtually guaranteed CL each season, that'd increase the value of the club by way more than lowering the wage bill imo (based on absolutely no knowledge of how a business works....but would be interested to see if someone who does have knowledge agrees or disagrees ?).

You don't guarantee CL football by spending money (look at Chelsea and United) but you guarantee becoming more valuable as a club by dropping your wage bill. You can pretty much control the latter but there are too many variables to control the former.

 

[bubble07]

Well paul O’keefe is saying the plan Is to drop the wage bill even further so any top class replacements will have to be punts that we develop it seems

"Best wage to turnover ratio" you'll never sing that

 

[Spurs_1981]

The way I see it a lot of the time watching us play is like watching a boxing match where one fighter looks more on the front foot, looks more lively on the feet, looks like they have the other fighter where you want them to be. But there isn't actually a heavy blow or a series of hits that will make the scorecard for that round look like it was anything more than cagey. When a boxer has their opponent on the ropes you'd think this is the decisive time to finish it off but how many times is that opportunity passed up and the other guy gets a reprieve. Again that's like watching Spurs play football. For all our territorial dominance (60%+ ball possession, winning the ball back high, getting into those positions either side of the box with lots of bodies forward) it doesn't actually amount to many clear chances. That's why our XG is not actually that high given what looked like one-way traffic. And when we had them on the ropes all it took was Joelinton to beat our press and pass through the halfway line and it's 2-1.

We do not actually cause our opponents that much danger when we push them back and if they can ride it out they know their are chinks in our armour to exploit.

it does feel like rope adope watching us especially late last season, we are pawing at our opp and they just bide time until we leave a gap. That said I think both the Leicester and Newcastle game gave me some optimism that if we can actually get a striker on the pitch there was some reasonable hope that we can land some knock out shots of our own.

 

[PaulM]

it does feel like rope adope watching us especially late last season, we are pawing at our opp and they just bide time until we leave a gap. That said I think both the Leicester and Newcastle game gave me some optimism that if we can actually get a striker on the pitch there was some reasonable hope that we can land some knock out shots of our own.

I don't buy into that at all. You concede two goals, you aren't winning many games especially away from home. No side averages 3 goals a game.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

Udogie is coming back from serious injury and surgery and didn't have any pre-season. It is going to take a few more matches before he is close to being match fit. He proved last year that he is more than good enough. It's actually disappointing (but sadly not surprising) to see somebody write this given the context.

Yep appreciate the context but aside from that I don't think that right now he is quite at the level we need to be challenging for titles which is what Ange wants. That is no slight on him as a player because he is only 21 and frankly I think given last season he played a completely new and difficult position (inverted full back) in a new team, league and country, he did remarkably well, I just don't think that he is say at Porro's level, I think he can be in a few seasons time but I'm just saying that if we are looking at our team absolutely honestly and objectively as if we were Ange and he is thinking which areas could I improve now or in the future to take us up to title contenders then I don't think I'm wrong in saying that if we'd signed a top class specialist LB that player wouldn't have improved us and Udogie being only 21 would still get a ton of games but would act more as the younger understudy this season.

I have seen Udogie get caught out of position quite a few times and personally I don't think he does enough going forwards or on the ball compared to Porro and in those inverted full-back positions we really need very creative attacking players especially given the fact that our wingers aren't really at the level we need them to be.

Last season : Udogie 2 goals 3 assists, Porro 3 goals 7 assists, granted Udogie did play less games than Porro but its more the eye test that I'm giving my opinion anyway.

Your reaction makes me think you don't quite get where I was coming from.

Udogie is class, I love the bloke, he's a top top player and has exceeded expectations and will continue to improve, he is very close to the level we need him to be but if we are looking at areas we could've really pushed on to try to be title contenders then honestly I'd say a top class ready to go in their prime quality LB, CDM, WF and more reliable striker than Richy needed to have been purchased, we are about 4 top players off where we need to be plus a couple of fringe upgrades like 4th CB and back-up GK, imo ofc.

 

[ReadieSpur]

Again with the creative writing.

Absolutely no-one is talking about sacking Ange. Absolutely no-one.

You've completely made that up, blamed Spurs fans for creating negativity which they literally haven't done, and then said that's one of the reasons we don't have success.

This is insane. Bunch of positive ratings for this fairy story as well.

Show me where people are discussing "giving Ange the boot" right now. You can't.

I am properly sick of fans blaming other fans for the failures of the team and more importantly, the owners. Stop gaslighting your fellow supporters!

Do you go in the match threads? I've seen plenty of comments eluding to the fact that he is out of his depth, or isn't good enough.

Get your head out of the sand, we've all seen this cycle before. It's actually insane for you not to recognise this trend.

 

[ReadieSpur]

Is anyone really discussing giving Ange the boot though? The conversation seems to be more about the "project," progress, timescales, form, whether Ange should adjust his tactics, and if he has the right players. I haven't seen much discussion about whether we should sack him.

Not full out right discussion (yet) but plenty of comments that people aren't happy. It's heading in that direction. If we lose to arsenal, then don't beat Brentford, we're then away to man u. We'll see plenty of it then.

 

[ReadieSpur]

That is a pretty tough one to sell though, stick with endless foundation phases and maybe in a few years we'll be able to try and win, and incredibly high risk in trying to prime a team for that far into the future. Many things could derail that - changing manager and under pressure lurching to another style which tears up best laid plans, better performers wanting to move on, players losing form, etc etc.

I might be wrong, but a lot of the sentiment/positivity of Spurs fans this summer seems to be getting comfort from the belief that everyone of these kids we're signing and developing is going to be shit hot. That is an absurd amount of pressure/expectation to be putting on a bunch of teenagers.

They say if you get 50% of transfers right then you're doing well. Take Bergvall, Gray, Odobert, Yang, Vuskovic, and whoever else we're signing up. A lot of fans seem to automatically assuming they become lynchpins, and yes they might all look pretty promising, but some are going to not make the level of top tier PL/CL team and if only a couple of them do then we've still done pretty well, but it's not a sure thing.

Youth academy development is an even more inexact science. People might be able to reel off a dozen names - Moore, Lankshear, Donley, et al - they're buzzing about but if one or two make it to the aforementioned level and become a regular then again we're doing well. Some of them might appear near, but really still have a mountain to climb. Things change quickly, it was only a couple of years back that narrative was that Ollie Skipp was a future Spurs and England captain in waiting......

Then you have the existing established players. The only direction Son is going to go at his age is the wrong one. Whilst with people like Maddison, Bissouma, Kulusevski and a fair few others they haven't been able to sort out their inconsistencies and weaknesses several seasons in to their careers and at their mid/late 20's, what reason is there to expect they do and kick on now? Is this even a nucleus you want to build around and upon?

I don't think it is particularly realistic to go all in on doing something in 3-5 years time, but a lot seem to be doing that - fans and people at the club. Whilst you should always be looking to the future, it's a balancing act and you don't want to collapse any grand plans by stalling in the present.

It is a risky strategy, but one that does make sense. You see it in other sports where teams gear up to peak in a certain season. However it definitely won't work if we get itchy mid way through and sack the manager. It's a strategy that you need to go all in on.