Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

[Dazzazzad]

Perhaps we need an old-fashioned Sweeper?

Vicario needs to position himself between the area and the half way line. Sorted.

 

[Styopa]

it’s obvious to me he isn’t going to change his tactics. This is who he is, it’s all out attack with a high line and inverted fullbacks. That isn’t changing any time soon.

People need to accept that and find some patience. We are in step two of a project and we aren’t the finished article yet.

I fully agree with this. We've started this, so we need to give him time to complete it.

But I'm a bit sceptical about how much of that is in the power of the fans. I don't see the fans turning against him en masse unless things get really bad. Sure, fans will vent on internet forums, but football fans always complain about their teams, even when they're doing well. The majority of fans will still turn up to matches and support the team, even if we're finishing 7th or 8th.

 

[Styopa]

That is a pretty tough one to sell though, stick with endless foundation phases and maybe in a few years we'll be able to try and win, and incredibly high risk in trying to prime a team for that far into the future. Many things could derail that - changing manager and under pressure lurching to another style which tears up best laid plans, better performers wanting to move on, players losing form, etc etc.

I might be wrong, but a lot of the sentiment/positivity of Spurs fans this summer seems to be getting comfort from the belief that everyone of these kids we're signing and developing is going to be shit hot. That is an absurd amount of pressure/expectation to be putting on a bunch of teenagers.

They say if you get 50% of transfers right then you're doing well. Take Bergvall, Gray, Odobert, Yang, Vuskovic, and whoever else we're signing up. A lot of fans seem to automatically assuming they become lynchpins, and yes they might all look pretty promising, but some are going to not make the level of top tier PL/CL team and if only a couple of them do then we've still done pretty well, but it's not a sure thing.

Youth academy development is an even more inexact science. People might be able to reel off a dozen names - Moore, Lankshear, Donley, et al - they're buzzing about but if one or two make it to the aforementioned level and become a regular then again we're doing well. Some of them might appear near, but really still have a mountain to climb. Things change quickly, it was only a couple of years back that narrative was that Ollie Skipp was a future Spurs and England captain in waiting......

Then you have the existing established players. The only direction Son is going to go at his age is the wrong one. Whilst with people like Maddison, Bissouma, Kulusevski and a fair few others they haven't been able to sort out their inconsistencies and weaknesses several seasons in to their careers and at their mid/late 20's, what reason is there to expect they do and kick on now? Is this even a nucleus you want to build around and upon?

I don't think it is particularly realistic to go all in on doing something in 3-5 years time, but a lot seem to be doing that - fans and people at the club. Whilst you should always be looking to the future, it's a balancing act and you don't want to collapse any grand plans by stalling in the present.

Great post, I think you're absolutely right. Many fans seem to expect Moore, Bergvall, and Gray to become generational talents, and sooner rather than later. I can't recall expectations being this high for a group of young players, which says a lot, considering we've brought in or developed outstanding talent like Modric, Bale, Walker, and Kane over the past twenty years. I understand the excitement, and by all accounts, these are exceptional talents in their age groups. But it's clear that building this core of highly-rated young players is influencing how fans feel about the club's transfer business.

 

[cliff jones]

The fact that we're evn discussing giving Ange the boot is crazy. The spurs fans doing that are part of the problem and are contributing to our lack of success. The negativity seeps into the team and further into the psyche of the fans and it's a vicious circle.

We fans really need to change our mindset for this season.

We have cleared the decks and have obviously bought players for a team that will peak in 2-3 years. (possibly with no Man city or Pep about either btw.) We need to try and keep thereabouts during that time, but I wouldn't expect any major success until then.

If fans can accept that, then they Have to give Ange the time.

His system surely can't work without a disciplined DM and extreme pace at CB?

I thought most played really well yesterday but these defensive liabilities are genuinely a big worry because we all still want to believe and anyone with Spurs in their DNA would rather win by the odd goal in seven than shut the opposition out and blag a one nil.

 

[E17yid]

The fact that we're evn discussing giving Ange the boot is crazy. The spurs fans doing that are part of the problem and are contributing to our lack of success. The negativity seeps into the team and further into the psyche of the fans and it's a vicious circle.

We fans really need to change our mindset for this season.

We have cleared the decks and have obviously bought players for a team that will peak in 2-3 years. (possibly with no Man city or Pep about either btw.) We need to try and keep thereabouts during that time, but I wouldn't expect any major success until then.

If fans can accept that, then they Have to give Ange the time.

I honestly don’t think even Ange believes this. Maybe he does and he’s just saying positive things to win us over and maybe if his messaging was “look guys, we’re not going to be doing anything for 2-3 years” I could understand but everything about his career to date, and the stuff he’s said in the last year and a bit, suggests he wants us competing in a lot shorter time frame than you suggest.

 

[rossdapep]

Has there really been any improvement at all? I’d argue we’re going backwards.

Disagree

How can you have watched our performance against Newcastle last season and yesterday and not seen we have improved?

Newcastle used the crowd to assert pressure early and we dealt with it well.

We did have a bit of difficulty hurting them early on but that was clearly due to us not having a CF in the pitch and wingers to stretch them. Also Sarr was a limiting us in penetrating them.

But it wasn't poor, Newcastle couldn't get on top either.

Second half Ange tweaked it and we totally dominated and exerted loads of pressure.

Newcastle couldn't break out and most their attacks came because we lost the ball, but we still recovered it quickly.

Unfortunately we haven't eradicated all the defensive errors, the first was totally preventable becaud first Udogie made a stupid foul which allowed Newcastle to get some needed momentum back after they had lost it, we dealt with the initial cross but then switched off for the throw in.

If you take away those few errors, which are 100% down to the players, then Newcastle hardly tested us.

When we were on top, I said to myself that if we win from here, this will be Ange's most impressive win because we had to deal with Newcastle's early pressure and he had also adapted the system to get us on top.

It's one of the toughest places to go and play when Newcastle fans are behind their team.

Unfortunately we didnt take any of the multiple goal scoring opportunities to win it.

I was just as frustrated as any one last season watching us turn up against teams like Newcastle and look toothless in attack, fail to even muster a shot and just get caught on almost every counter attack.

This really wasn't like that, we were snuffing out a lot of their attacks quickly and Vicario didn't have to really make any saves.

 

[rossdapep]

I honestly don’t think even Ange believes this. Maybe he does and he’s just saying positive things to win us over and maybe if his messaging was “look guys, we’re not going to be doing anything for 2-3 years” I could understand but everything about his career to date, and the stuff he’s said in the last year and a bit, suggests he wants us competing in a lot shorter time frame than you suggest.

Yeah I raised the other day.

Ange is brazen and bold. He wants to win.

He's told us multiple times that 4th means nothing to him and his players should be aiming higher.

If he wanted Neto, thats cause he believes that's a player who can. help the team win now.

But it's clear that those above him have moved the goalposts and told him that they can't bring in those players now so we need a bit of patience.

Seems like Ange is accepting that but I really don't see him accepting it to be a 2-3 year change.

I imagine the youngsters have impressed him enough to feel that he can tune them this season to go up a level but I also think he'll be thinking that next summer he still wants a couple of next level players.

We don't have a single attacking player that you can look at and think they are that player (Son was and maybe is but will regress now). They all have big flaws or are developing.

I think that's really poor for a supposed top team.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

Has there really been any improvement at all? I’d argue we’re going backwards.

How have 6 people watched our first 3 match performances and agreed with this, mad.

We are playing very well and clearly lots of areas have improved, better pressing, restricting opposition to less chances, better control of the game, more possession and chance creation, different types of chance creation not just from out wide, better set piece defending, sure we need to take our chances better (/buy better quality attackers) and sure we still get hit with the odd too many counter attack but to say we are going backwards imo is wrong.

We lost 4-0 last season to Newcastle, this season we lost 2-1 but deserved to really win that 3-1, clear progress imo.

 

[Oh Teddy Teddy]

Is anyone really discussing giving Ange the boot though? The conversation seems to be more about the "project," progress, timescales, form, whether Ange should adjust his tactics, and if he has the right players. I haven't seen much discussion about whether we should sack him.

Interesting point; as someone above has mentioned, very few have made their mind up and want him out, but there is the underlying structure being put in place: “...I can see him being under pressure by...”, “...we play X, X, X next, if we don't have X points, questions will be asked...”

What they mean is Ange will be under pressure by them.

 

[Westmorlandspur]

I honestly don’t think even Ange believes this. Maybe he does and he’s just saying positive things to win us over and maybe if his messaging was “look guys, we’re not going to be doing anything for 2-3 years” I could understand but everything about his career to date, and the stuff he’s said in the last year and a bit, suggests he wants us competing in a lot shorter time frame than you suggest.

Apparently the second season is when it all happens . Except it happened in the first at Celtic.
I keep thinking back to what I thought at Xmas . He could end up like Bielsa . They work you out and you get some hammerings. That happened at the end of last season, completely outclassed by Bayern in the first halves of 2 friendlies. Wonder what Newcastle fans think of their team playing like a bottom 6 team just so they could catch us on the break.
Didn’t seem too bothered at the end. We didn’t dominate , they just let us have the ball and sat back.
I’ve seen this match too many times and I think I might watch a few more if Ange doesn’t get a grip.

 

[Bobbins]

The same patience has to be from supporters of most clubs. Aston Villa, Newcastle, West Ham, and all the other clubs that haven’t won anything in years.
Look at the winners over the last 20 years. Apart from a couple of anomalies it’s the same old faces winning the honours.

Except that West Ham have literally won a trophy, Villa have gone from mid-table to the CL in 1.5 seasons, and Newcastle have absolutely no history of winning anything to create expectations.

Spurs have been far above all these teams for at least 10-15 years now and in that time have won absolutely nothing. Telling Spurs fans to be patient again is not remotely the same as asking it of fans of the teams you've listed.

 

[Westmorlandspur]

How have 6 people watched our first 3 match performances and agreed with this, mad.

We are playing very well and clearly lots of areas have improved, better pressing, restricting opposition to less chances, better control of the game, more possession and chance creation, different types of chance creation not just from out wide, better set piece defending, sure we need to take our chances better (/buy better quality attackers) and sure we still get hit with the odd too many counter attack but to say we are going backwards imo is wrong.

We lost 4-0 last season to Newcastle, this season we lost 2-1 but deserved to really win that 3-1, clear progress imo.

Couldn’t get much worse than last time, could it.

 

[LukaKranjcar]

“It is better to fail aiming high than to succeed aiming low. At Spurs we set our sights very high, so that even failure will have in it an echo of glory."

That's our Tottenham. Up the Spurs.

 

[superted4]

It helps when your board (FSG) go out and sign the players needed and not just prospects.

Alison and VVD pretty much solidified that system. I don’t think it’s a vulnerable system though, but it’s hard to tell when you have a front three of Mane, Salah and Firminho scoring for fun. Who cares if we ship 3? We’re just going to score 4 or more and that’s exactly what they did on a few occasions.

Agree with your points but worth pointing out that Klopp became manager in October 2015, Countiho was sold was sold summer 17, whilst VVD was signed Jan 2018 and Alisson in the summer 2018. Ange had his best player sold the eve of the new season. Arteta had to wait several windows of treading water to start moulding the squad before bigger better players were signed.

WE'VE GOT TO TRUST THE PROCESS THIS TIME

 

[Styopa]

Interesting point; as someone above has mentioned, very few have made their mind up and want him out, but there is the underlying structure being put in place: “...I can see him being under pressure by...”, “...we play X, X, X next, if we don't have X points, questions will be asked...”

What they mean is Ange will be under pressure by them.

Yes I think you and @Tucker are probably right about this. But with two caveats:

1. Sometimes, when someone is critical of Ange here, and another person responds with a call to back him, it’s assumed that the original poster isn’t backing Ange just because they raised concerns about tactics or performance.

Often, the original poster was simply voicing concerns about a specific issue, not suggesting that we shouldn’t back Ange. However, this quickly becomes framed as a debate about sacking him. Then you get comments like, "I can't believe we're discussing sacking Ange," even though that wasn't the original topic.

2. I also think some people are speculating that Ange might come under pressure if things don’t go well, but they’re not necessarily suggesting they’ll be the ones applying that pressure.

Most of us who have followed Tottenham for 25 or 30 years know that nearly every coach—90% of them—ends up on borrowed time, sooner rather than later. We tend to expect the worst because it often happens. Not due to the fans, but because the owners have certain expectations. Hopefully, this time will be different, but it’s up to the club's owners to demonstrate that. In the past twenty years, our three longest-serving coaches have been:

• Pochettino: 5 and a bit seasons
• Redknapp: 3 and 3/4 seasons
• Jol: 2 and 3/4 seasons

Assuming Ange is still here at the end of this season, he will already have served in the role longer than Hoddle, Santini, Ramos, AVB, Sherwood, Mourinho, Nuno, and Conte.

 

[Styopa]

Villa have gone from mid-table to the CL in 1.5 seasons

Even more impressive is how Villa went from a newly promoted team in 19-20 to CL qualifiers in 23-24.

They beat Derby in the 2019 play-off final a few days before we lost to Liverpool in the 2019 CL final.

 

[spurmin]

Even more impressive is how Villa went from a newly promoted team in 19-20 to CL qualifiers in 23-24.

They beat Derby in the 2019 play-off final a few days before we lost to Liverpool in the 2019 CL final.

Probably being one of the worlds richest clubs aided this.

 

[Styopa]

Probably being one of the worlds richest clubs aided this.

True, but they're also competing with several other "richest clubs in the world", like Man U, Newcastle, Chelsea, and ourselves.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

Couldn’t get much worse than last time, could it.

Well it was 6-1 before that and 5-0 down after 20 mins so yea it could and it was we’ve improved each of the last 2 matches under Ange compared to the Stellini debacle.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

It helps when your board (FSG) go out and sign the players needed and not just prospects.

Alison and VVD pretty much solidified that system. I don’t think it’s a vulnerable system though, but it’s hard to tell when you have a front three of Mane, Salah and Firminho scoring for fun. Who cares if we ship 3? We’re just going to score 4 or more and that’s exactly what they did on a few occasions.

It’s like when Liverpool signed Mane and Winjaldium both of whom we were interested in but we ended up with Sissoko.

This summer we needed to get Ange an Eze and we got him a 19yr old Odobert.

Difference is Odobert ‘could’ become really good whereas we knew Sissoko had his limit.

The big Q is now we’ve got a base of a squad for Ange will we add him real quality in the next few windows or not. If we do then this project can absolutely be a success, if we continue to ask our managers to make gourmet meals with cheap ingredients then no Manager will succeed with us.

But we are where we are now until January at least so lets hope Solanke and/or Richy can stay fit and see how we go.