Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

[funkycoldmedina]

Was Rafa a 'push the boat out' signing or Real offloading their schtrops?

I meant Virgil Van Dijk, he was the big one Klopp wanted after he'd done his squad surgery.

 

[gavspur]

Hmm, I think Ange is being naive. If we know we’re vulnerable at the back, other teams know we’re vulnerable at the back, then you need to counter that. I wasn’t even angry yesterday, I just knew we’d get caught out, it was just so obvious.

 

[funkycoldmedina]

When they bought Van Dijk and Alisson.

That was after a painful rebuild. He spent a few seasons developing his squad, getting rid of deadwood, promoting young players, then decided his stress points and Liverpool backed him.

 

[Styopa]

People can't have it both ways where we hype up our defenders as individuals but then not look at the fact we collectively leak goals for fun. It's a contradiction .... unless you sincerely believe the problem is that 3 of the back 4 are not up to it but in that case the talent pool to upgrade is extremely tiny.

I think some of our individual defenders are slightly overrated by fans. Don't get me wrong, they're all very good. But we also had some excellent defenders in the past, like King, Walker, Vertonghen, Alderweireld and Rose. Even the likes of Assou-Ekotto and Corluka weren't too shabby.

However, we've just come out of a phase where we depended on players like Dier, Davies, and Emerson. While I mean no disrespect to these three, who are exemplary professionals, it’s understandable that we now view Udogie, Porro, and Micky as something of a revelation.

Another major other issue is our midfield. I think we are still too easy to play through in midfield, which puts pressure on our defenders.

 

[Trix]

I thought we absolutely battered them yesterday and if the result reflected the overall performance we would have won by 2 or 3 goals. Johnson alone put in multiple delicious crosses that Solanke will gobble up when he gets up to speed.

What some are saying now are exactly the sort of things gooners were saying about Arteta in his 2nd season. Patience means multiple seasons of patience, not 3 games into season 2.

A lot of people are posting stuff like this and completely ignoring that Newcastle missed chances as well. The fact still remains if we continue to give up chances like we have been, and I'm talking under 10's Sunday youth league chances, we will need to score 3-4 every game and that is not sustainable.

Anyone that has watched much youth football will know exactly what I mean by Under 10's chances. At around Under 10's-11's Kids move onto bigger sided games on much bigger pitches, and all of a sudden how a lot of the goals are scored changes. Defenders still don't understand their role yet and how to play it but that one kid who is miles faster then everyone else in the league all of a sudden becomes the leagues top scorer by a country mile. Why? Because there is now a ton of space and no one can catch him. As the years go on those obscene numbers generally start to drop off a bit because defenders start to understand they can no longer stand chatting to him waiting for the ball to arrive, and coaches of opposition teams that know this kid will start to double up on them(one in front one behind). Now they make sure they are goal side and give themselves a couple of yards advantage to at least give themselves a chance. It's the absolute fundamental basics of defending that up against a faster player as a defender you make sure you give yourself room the further you play up the pitch.

 

[funkycoldmedina]

A lot of people are posting stuff like this and completely ignoring that Newcastle missed chances as well. The fact still remains if we continue to give up chances like we have been, and I'm talking under 10's Sunday youth league chances, we will need to score 3-4 every game and that is not sustainable.

Anyone that has watched much youth football will know exactly what I mean by Under 10's chances. At around Under 10's-11's Kids move onto bigger sided games on much bigger pitches, and all of a sudden how a lot of the goals are scored changes. Defenders still don't understand their role yet and how to play it but that one kid who is miles faster then everyone else in the league all of a sudden becomes the leagues top scorer by a country mile. Why? Because there is now a ton of space and no one can catch him. As the years go on those obscene numbers generally start to drop off a bit because defenders start to understand they can no longer stand chatting to him waiting for the ball to arrive, and coaches of opposition teams that know this kid will start to double up on them(one in front one behind). Now they make sure they are goal side and give themselves a couple of yards advantage to at least give themselves a chance. It's the absolute fundamental basics of defending that up against a faster player as a defender you make sure you give yourself room the further you play up the pitch.

Klopp bought Allison because he knew that his team would give up one or two of those opportunities a game and Allison was elite in those situations. But really what he wanted was his team to control the game in the oppositions half. We're doing that better this season but still have lapses. The biggest culprits for me are Deki and Maddison, who turn over the ball cheaply in the centre of the pitch and that then causes the issues.

 

[PLTuck]

Again, I don't honestly see calls for Ange to be sacked here but more constructive criticism in identifying persisting issues - particularly in how we defend as a team against transitions.

Not aimed at you Tuck but why generally does there always seems to be a binary narrative and that nuance is removed?!

Yes, fully on board with that approach. I'm not trying to say he shouldn't be questioned, I guess I'm saying that I think it takes longer than most fans realise to address those issues unless you get a lightning in a bottle season where everything goes right, even more so when you are only 13 months into a completely new approach on and off the pitch as a club.

Even Fergie used to say he'd rather be lucky than good. Multiple winning managers have said over the years that winning anything requires lady luck to be on your side as well as everything else.

 

[-Afri-Coy-]

I watched the West Ham v Citeh game on Saturday and I commented that Citeh were being countered exactly the same as we do.

The only real difference was that they had Haaland at one end and Akanji, Diaz and Gvardiol at the other.

As the Great Conte says the game is won and lost in both boxes.

The Citeh defenders just don't have the same kind of lapses that ours do.

Maybe the game that Ange wants to play is only really optimal with the better team, he has shown he can adapt (Citeh last season) and he should be humble enough to do so against the right teams.

It’s funny you mentioned the city game, I watched it myself and saw a few similarities between how they setup and how we setup under Ange.

One major difference is they’ve been drilled to pass and progress the ball through the lines instead of around the line like we do.

They have the players to find and unlock stubborn teams, and they do it with a combination of creativity and tempo adjustments. They go from walking to blitz in seconds, and that throws teams off.

 

[PLTuck]

It’s funny you mentioned the city game, I watched it myself and saw a few similarities between how they setup and how we setup under Ange.

One major difference is they’ve been drilled to pass and progress the ball through the lines instead of around the line like we do.

They have the players to find and unlock stubborn teams, and they do it with a combination of creativity and tempo adjustments. They go from walking to blitz in seconds, and that throws teams off.

And they have Haaland who would have scored 6 for us yesterday .

 

[-Afri-Coy-]

And yet the successful teams have shown that you can, Liverpool being the prime example.

I’m curious how their system was vulnerable with one or two lapses in judgement like our last two have been? Genuine question, I never followed them enough to know Klopp’s tactics in comparison to Ange’s.

 

[Styopa]

That was after a painful rebuild.

Liverpool finished 4th in Klopp's first full season. They signed Van Dijk in the winter transfer window of the following season and ended that campaign in 4th place as well. They even made the finals of the Europa and League Cup during Klopp's first partial season. That kind of record sweetens the pill of a "painful rebuild".

 

[Stamford]

Liverpool finished 4th in Klopp's first full season. They signed Van Dijk in the winter transfer window of the following season and ended that campaign in 4th place as well. They even made the finals of the Europa and League Cup during Klopp's first partial season. That kind of record sweetens the pill of a "painful rebuild".

It's also how Arteta was allowed to continue. He won a trophy out of the gate then improved the league position.

 

[-Afri-Coy-]

And they have Haaland who would have scored 6 for us yesterday .

Saying that I would suck on @Archibald&Crooks old plug to have Harry Kane back under Ange

 

[easley91]

It’s funny you mentioned the city game, I watched it myself and saw a few similarities between how they setup and how we setup under Ange.

One major difference is they’ve been drilled to pass and progress the ball through the lines instead of around the line like we do.

They have the players to find and unlock stubborn teams, and they do it with a combination of creativity and tempo adjustments. They go from walking to blitz in seconds, and that throws teams off.

It does help having Haaland to score the chances and having been drilled in this way for YEARS. This is 3 games into year 2 for us under Ange.

 

[-Afri-Coy-]

Klopp bought Allison because he knew that his team would give up one or two of those opportunities a game and Allison was elite in those situations. But really what he wanted was his team to control the game in the oppositions half. We're doing that better this season but still have lapses. The biggest culprits for me are Deki and Maddison, who turn over the ball cheaply in the centre of the pitch and that then causes the issues.

Don’t even get me started on Kulu and giving the ball away yesterday, I’ll start a civil war with his fans on here

 

[-Afri-Coy-]

It does help having Haaland to score the chances and having been drilled in this way for YEARS. This is 3 games into year 2 for us under Ange.

They did it without a striker, Haaland is just icing on the cake.

I do agree on the time in the system bit, and you can bet Pep has drilled pass and move into their heads for years already. Tiki taka esque, where we seen to stand still and pass into feet rather than making runs and passing forward.

 

[PLTuck]

Don’t even get me started on Kulu and giving the ball away yesterday, I’ll start a civil war with his fans on here

I love Deki but even I was screaming at the telly yesterday when he unnecessarily lost the ball more than once.

 

[funkycoldmedina]

I’m curious how their system was vulnerable with one or two lapses in judgement like our last two have been? Genuine question, I never followed them enough to know Klopp’s tactics in comparison to Ange’s.

Their press was relentless, they never allowed teams to exploit the spaces behind because they were always so rushed. The season they got injuries to Fabinho and Henderson fell off the pace they got carved open all the time. I think Villa beat them 7-2 or something in one game.
We give teams opportunities to exploit those spaces by giving the ball in bad areas and then to stopping the quick counter at source.

 

[-Afri-Coy-]

I love Deki but even I was screaming at the telly yesterday when he unnecessarily lost the ball more than once.

On his day he is a great player, but those days seem to be few and far between.

 

[-Afri-Coy-]

Their press was relentless, they never allowed teams to exploit the spaces behind because they were always so rushed. The season they got injuries to Fabinho and Henderson fell off the pace they got carved open all the time. I think Villa beat them 7-2 or something in one game.
We give teams opportunities to exploit those spaces by giving the ball in bad areas and then to stopping the quick counter at source.

It helps when your board (FSG) go out and sign the players needed and not just prospects.

Alison and VVD pretty much solidified that system. I don’t think it’s a vulnerable system though, but it’s hard to tell when you have a front three of Mane, Salah and Firminho scoring for fun. Who cares if we ship 3? We’re just going to score 4 or more and that’s exactly what they did on a few occasions.