Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

[olliec]

Does Archie have the attributes to play that DM role we really need?

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

Does Archie have the attributes to play that DM role we really need?

Well i'm getting on a bit but i'll give it a go

 

[dontcallme]

I’m feeling slightly negative at the moment if I’m honest.

We desperately need cover at left back and centre back as a minimum and with the more times passes the more sceptical I am we’re going to get it

In midfield I think we need to replace Holjbergs experience and tackling. It’s just so lightweight on paper and I can’t see anyone that’s gonna commit that snidey foul that Rodri does so often to stop counters

Uptop we still look unbalanced although Solanke is a very very welcome addition but with Odobert being such an unknown quantity to me at least, I’m worried we’re in for another season of pacey wingers with no creativity.

I still love Ange but this squad to me looks a way off. Let’s see , hopefully someone is quoting me in nine months telling me I’m an idiot (I am)

I get that.

I’m in that unsure mindset at the moment.

One minute I’m positive and thinking if a few of our players play to their potential we’ll have a good season.

But then I just think we’re not really improving and we lack that bit of quality required to step up.

 

[Goobers]

I agree to an extent that it is difficult to look at things and clearly see a much improved first XI. BUT I don't think the first XI was the issue with us falling away last season - I think it was the makeup of the rest of the squad as well. And in that way it does feel stronger - I couldn't help feel on Monday night that the bench was much more like it.
having said all that - the improvement in our first team squad is a necessity because of Europe.
I do feel more positive but think the squad needs addressing in a few areas. We have released, soldand loan a lot of players that were not required - more than I thought we would and our dealings will always be dependent on both happening.
I think heating Ange yesterday that he expects more incomings and that will hopefully add to the optimism.
BUT the most important thing is that we have some really good players in our squad. If they play well, are happy, fit and know the structure, style that they want to play I think we are in for a good season. The problem is I am not sure what a "good season" for us in the premier league equals in terms of league position. I do know that I firmly believe we can go deep in the Europa and actually in many ways that will be, this season at least, a lot of excitement and attention falls.

 

[barrie]

Well i'm getting on a bit but i'll give it a go

We have a song ready for you, but there’s still a lot of bridge building to be done before you hear us sing it.

 

[nicdic]

In the off season last year, everyone thought 8th would be the best we could manage. So many of our players written off, no-one was good enough. Porro can't defend. He and Udogie aren't full backs. Son past it. VDV a cheap option. Vicario a cheap option who can't play. etc. etc. And yet, Ange coached them to be more than the sum of their parts. And his recruitment proved to be incredibly shrewd. Why has everyone forgotten that that was the case last season, and acting as if it's not possible that he can coach this team to be better again this year, or that signings will be better than people necessarily think?

Second half of last season was rough, but that doesn't mean the first half of the season didn't happen.

First half against Leicester was some of the best football we've played under Ange, despite not scoring the goals. People need to chill.

 

[joey55]

My concern with Ange is that what we saw on Monday was nothing new. Terms like "knee jerk" get thrown around, when expressing concern one game into the season, but us dominating a game in the first 20-30 mins and having sufficient chances to be out of sight, only to be pegged back and then start looking vulnerable, is nothing new. In fact, it was there in our first game under him vs Brentford. Even in the infamous season changing game at home to Chelsea, we should have been 2 or 3 up before the sending off. We battered Wham and Villa, yet conspired to lose and when drawing at Everton the game should have been over before the equalized and from then on they were the better side.

It's not like Ange's system doesn't work, it's just that it's so front foot, you need really good attackers to blow teams away early. Had we still got Kane and and top class winger then I'm sure we'd have won all those games I mentioned and probably a couple of other similar games I've forgotten about. We still managed to score 74 goals last season, which in most seasons is enough for a CL place. But, due to our soft under belly, we have to be either or close to, the top scorers in the league. You can't be as vulnerable as we are and expect to challenge unless we score around 90 goals. The problem with this, is the players needed for that are frightenlingly expensive. So the only alternative is to try and concede less, which is where my major concern with Ange lies.

We conceded 61 goals last season. That's nowhere near good enough to challenge in this league. However, it's not as if we haven't made major defensive improevments from one season to the next before. We did it under Poch, for example, going from conceding 53 in 14/15 to 35 in 15/16. But there is one massive problem here, which is really hard to see how we over come. There is a popular myth that a head coach can have a real impact by working on the training ground to get players to fully understand his system. When in reality, a team only makes notable improvements when they buy better players to suit the system. Again we see this with Poch, when after his appointment, much was made of that fact he was going to have a full pre season to work with the players, which would be a big advantage. The net gain of this turned out to be absolute zero as in the end he ended up with a lower PPG, the same finishing place and conceding more per game, than a man who was sarcastically known as "tactics Tim," had achieved over his 26 games in charge. Poch's coaching proved to be worthless in any quantifiable terms.

The way Poch turned things round was the same way all mangers improve things, which is via personnel changes. Either you buy players to suit your system or you have to change system, it's that simple. Poch bought in Toby and suddenly we had the best CB pairing in the league. He replaced Bentaleb wth Dier and the defence was much better protected. We actually saw a further improvement the next season when we replaced Dier with a proper DM in Wanyama.

The huge problem we have now under Ange, is that unlike under Poch, is that we actually already have a really good set of defenders. We also have or had really decent DM's. Replacing Fazio with Toby is so huge, that it's inevitable that we'd concede less. No matter what anyone thinks of Biss or thought of PEH, there is absolutely no comparison to them and the defensive frailties of Nabil Bentaleb. There are no major improvements to be made at CB. It's just not realistic. There isn't a CB in world football that could improve upon VDV or Romero, in the way Toby was such a step up from Fazio. But even in the 6, where many of us are disapoointed with Biss, we have to conede he's definitely very decent, even when he's not looking like the wolrd beater he was at the start of last season. You sign someone like Joao Gomes and even if he does prove to be better, it's not going to be a Dier/Wanyama over Bentaleb improvement. So I just can't see why things would be masively different to last season.

On Monday at Leicester, things didn't seem any different. We were so utterly dominant and had we had a better front line would have been out of sight in 30 mins. But even when leading and dominating, I still felt as if we could easily concede and the tide of the game change as we've seen it happen so frequently. If we'd had a rubbish set of defenders I wouldn't be that bothered, as it would have been a relatively easy transfer market fix. But we've got really good defenders. In Poch's or Conte's system we concede less than 40 goals with those players.

I'm not saying that I think Ange should be replaced. I really like him and enjoy his style of football. But I am worried for him as Levy isn't known for his patience. I think Ange's system does work. I think most systems work in theory. But I think they key to it working is for the attackers to create and score more goals. On paper 74 goals seems like a lot, but for such a front foot team it's not close to enough. If we make the most of our pressing and quick transitions we kill teams off and the impetus of the game doesn't change which will mean we concede less. But I look at our front line and I'm not convinced that we've got enough to make the most of Ange's system. I think we've bought some amazing young players and then we've got the academy boys coming through. But unless the likes of Odobert, Moore and Bergvall have Dele like impacts in their first seasons, Ange might struggle to survive. Maybe we'll sign a senior attacking player, who is a real difference maker this week, but I'm not holding my breath. Otherwise I could see another season when we look great in many games, but on too many occassions we'll fail to capitalise and over the course of the season, come up short.

 

[nicdic]

My concern with Ange is that what we saw on Monday was nothing new. Terms like "knee jerk" get thrown around, when expressing concern one game into the season, but us dominating a game in the first 20-30 mins and having sufficient chances to be out of sight, only to be pegged back and then start looking vulnerable, is nothing new. In fact, it was there in our first game under him vs Brentford. Even in the infamous season changing game at home to Chelsea, we should have been 2 or 3 up before the sending off. We battered Wham and Villa, yet conspired to lose and when drawing at Everton the game should have been over before the equalized and from then on they were the better side.

It's not like Ange's system doesn't work, it's just that it's so front foot, you need really good attackers to blow teams away early. Had we still got Kane and and top class winger then I'm sure we'd have won all those games I mentioned and probably a couple of other similar games I've forgotten about. We still managed to score 74 goals last season, which in most seasons is enough for a CL place. But, due to our soft under belly, we have to be either or close to, the top scorers in the league. You can't be as vulnerable as we are and expect to challenge unless we score around 90 goals. The problem with this, is the players needed for that are frightenlingly expensive. So the only alternative is to try and concede less, which is where my major concern with Ange lies.

We conceded 61 goals last season. That's nowhere near good enough to challenge in this league. However, it's not as if we haven't made major defensive improevments from one season to the next before. We did it under Poch, for example, going from conceding 53 in 14/15 to 35 in 15/16. But there is one massive problem here, which is really hard to see how we over come. There is a popular myth that a head coach can have a real impact by working on the training ground to get players to fully understand his system. When in reality, a team only makes notable improvements when they buy better players to suit the system. Again we see this with Poch, when after his appointment, much was made of that fact he was going to have a full pre season to work with the players, which would be a big advantage. The net gain of this turned out to be absolute zero as in the end he ended up with a lower PPG, the same finishing place and conceding more per game, than a man who was sarcastically known as "tactics Tim," had achived over his 26 games in charge. Poch's coaching proved to be worhtless in any quantifiable terms.

The way Poch turned things round was the same way all mangers improve things, which is via personnel changes. Either you buy players to suit your system or you have to change system, it's that simple. Poch bought in Toby and suddenly we had the best CB pairing in the league. He replaced Bentaleb wth Dier and the defence was much better protected. We actually saw a further improvement the next season when we replaced Dier with a proper DM in Wanyama.

The huge problem we have now under Ange, is that unlike under Poch, is that we actually already have a really good set of defenders. We also have or had really decent DM's. Replacing Fazio with Toby is so huge, that it's inevitable that we'd concede less. No matter what anyone thinks of Biss or thought of PEH, there is absolutely no comparison to them and the defensive frailties of Nabil Bentaleb. There are no major improvements to be made at CB. It's just not realistic. There isn't a CB in world football that could improve upon VDV or Romero, in the way Toby was such a step up from Fazio. But even in the 6, where many of us are disapoointed with Biss, we have to conede he's definitely very decent, even when he's not looking like the wolrd beater he was at the start of last season. You sign someone like Joao Gomes and even if he does prove to be better, it's not going to be a Dier/Wanyama over Bentaleb improvement. So I just can't see why things would be masively different to last season.

On Monday at Leicester, things didn't seem any different. We were so utterly dominant and had we had a better front line would have been out of sight in 30 mins. But even when leading and dominating, I still felt as if we could easily concede and the tide of the game change as we've seen it happen so frequently. If we'd had a rubbish set of defenders I wouldn't be that bothered, as it would have been a relatively easy transfer market fix. But we've got really good defenders. In Poch's or Conte's system we concede less than 40 goals with those players.

I'm not saying that I think Ange should be replaced. I really like him and enjoy his style of football. But I am worried for him as Levy isn't known for his patience. I think Ange's system does work. I think most systems work in theory. But I think they key to it working is for the attackers to create and score more goals. On paper 74 goals seems like a lot, but for such a front foot team it's not close to enough. If we make the most of our pressing and quick transitions we kill teams off and the impetus of the game doesn't change which will mean we concede less. But I look at our front line and I'm not convinced that we've got enough to make the most of Ange's system. I think we've bought some amazing young players and then we've got the academy boys coming through. But unless the likes of Odobert, Moore and Bergvall have Dele like impacts in their first seasons, Ange might struggle to survive. Maybe we'll sign a seniore attacking player, who is a real difference maker this week, but I'm not holding my breath. Otherwise I could see another season when we look great in many games, but on too many occassions we'll fail to capitalise and over the course of the season, come up short.

All really well articulated and valid points. I think there is a caveat to make though, whilst the shape of the performance resembles games from last year, I do think Monday was different. People are claiming headloss and lack of leadership, but I think it was more an issue of fitness/sharpness. We needed to make some of the subs earlier to keep the momentum, we waited too long, and the goal coincided with most of our midfield running on fumes. I might just be wishful thinking, but I don't believe it's quite the same issue.

 

[joey55]

All really well articulated and valid points. I think there is a caveat to make though, whilst the shape of the performance resembles games from last year, I do think Monday was different. People are claiming headloss and lack of leadership, but I think it was more an issue of fitness/sharpness. We needed to make some of the subs earlier to keep the momentum, we waited too long, and the goal coincided with most of our midfield running on fumes. I might just be wishful thinking, but I don't believe it's quite the same issue.

I hope so mate. But I can't help but feel, with the same level of fitness, but with Kane as our striker and Olise as our RW, we are 2 or 3 up before half time.

 

[talkshowhost86]

As Joey points out we won't finish 4th if we concede 61 goals this season and it was worrying that we looked very open against one of the worst teams in the league on Monday.

We should win today and win easily...but I don't have confidence that we will.

I expect us to concede at least once and that puts a lot of pressure on us at the other end.

 

[dontcallme]

In the off season last year, everyone thought 8th would be the best we could manage.

Everyone?

There’s been loads of talk of our top four potential.

The pundit thread ridicules how much we’ve been written off.

 

[tommo84]

Everyone?

There’s been loads of talk of our top four potential.

The pundit thread ridicules how much we’ve been written off.

He says last year - as in summer of 2023. When Kane was sold some predicted a bottom half finish and very few predicted Top 6. We far exceeded that.

 

[Styopa]

He says last year - as in summer of 2023. When Kane was sold some predicted a bottom half finish and very few predicted Top 6. We far exceeded that.

"Some" is the keyword there. But reading back, many posters predicted us to finish around the top six after we sold Kane:

2023/24 - The Race For..................

Hoping we'll be in the 6-8 fight with Villa and Newcastle. Good basis for Ange to build from.

spurscommunity.co.uk

Regards this season, the impression I get from SC is that many fans expect us to improve on last season, compete for a top-four spot, and make a strong run in one of the cups.

 

[gavspur]

I like Ange, I really do. However, there are glaring weaknesses within our team structure that he needs to address to push us on. I think that, like a lot of top managers, he’ll be too stubborn to do that, which could ultimately be his downfall. And I can’t help thinking that with just a few tweaks, we would be so much better, and that there must be other managers watching us and thinking the same - as in they could come in and change a couple of simple things and make us much stronger.

Personally, I would go for Gomes to add bite, and possibly Koopmeiners for a bit of control and stability with leadership. Let Bergvall and Gray learn and develop uner those two, instead of pinning all our hope on them alone.

 

[Hotspur33]

My concern with Ange is that what we saw on Monday was nothing new. Terms like "knee jerk" get thrown around, when expressing concern one game into the season, but us dominating a game in the first 20-30 mins and having sufficient chances to be out of sight, only to be pegged back and then start looking vulnerable, is nothing new. In fact, it was there in our first game under him vs Brentford. Even in the infamous season changing game at home to Chelsea, we should have been 2 or 3 up before the sending off. We battered Wham and Villa, yet conspired to lose and when drawing at Everton the game should have been over before the equalized and from then on they were the better side.

It's not like Ange's system doesn't work, it's just that it's so front foot, you need really good attackers to blow teams away early. Had we still got Kane and and top class winger then I'm sure we'd have won all those games I mentioned and probably a couple of other similar games I've forgotten about. We still managed to score 74 goals last season, which in most seasons is enough for a CL place. But, due to our soft under belly, we have to be either or close to, the top scorers in the league. You can't be as vulnerable as we are and expect to challenge unless we score around 90 goals. The problem with this, is the players needed for that are frightenlingly expensive. So the only alternative is to try and concede less, which is where my major concern with Ange lies.

We conceded 61 goals last season. That's nowhere near good enough to challenge in this league. However, it's not as if we haven't made major defensive improevments from one season to the next before. We did it under Poch, for example, going from conceding 53 in 14/15 to 35 in 15/16. But there is one massive problem here, which is really hard to see how we over come. There is a popular myth that a head coach can have a real impact by working on the training ground to get players to fully understand his system. When in reality, a team only makes notable improvements when they buy better players to suit the system. Again we see this with Poch, when after his appointment, much was made of that fact he was going to have a full pre season to work with the players, which would be a big advantage. The net gain of this turned out to be absolute zero as in the end he ended up with a lower PPG, the same finishing place and conceding more per game, than a man who was sarcastically known as "tactics Tim," had achieved over his 26 games in charge. Poch's coaching proved to be worthless in any quantifiable terms.

The way Poch turned things round was the same way all mangers improve things, which is via personnel changes. Either you buy players to suit your system or you have to change system, it's that simple. Poch bought in Toby and suddenly we had the best CB pairing in the league. He replaced Bentaleb wth Dier and the defence was much better protected. We actually saw a further improvement the next season when we replaced Dier with a proper DM in Wanyama.

The huge problem we have now under Ange, is that unlike under Poch, is that we actually already have a really good set of defenders. We also have or had really decent DM's. Replacing Fazio with Toby is so huge, that it's inevitable that we'd concede less. No matter what anyone thinks of Biss or thought of PEH, there is absolutely no comparison to them and the defensive frailties of Nabil Bentaleb. There are no major improvements to be made at CB. It's just not realistic. There isn't a CB in world football that could improve upon VDV or Romero, in the way Toby was such a step up from Fazio. But even in the 6, where many of us are disapoointed with Biss, we have to conede he's definitely very decent, even when he's not looking like the wolrd beater he was at the start of last season. You sign someone like Joao Gomes and even if he does prove to be better, it's not going to be a Dier/Wanyama over Bentaleb improvement. So I just can't see why things would be masively different to last season.

On Monday at Leicester, things didn't seem any different. We were so utterly dominant and had we had a better front line would have been out of sight in 30 mins. But even when leading and dominating, I still felt as if we could easily concede and the tide of the game change as we've seen it happen so frequently. If we'd had a rubbish set of defenders I wouldn't be that bothered, as it would have been a relatively easy transfer market fix. But we've got really good defenders. In Poch's or Conte's system we concede less than 40 goals with those players.

I'm not saying that I think Ange should be replaced. I really like him and enjoy his style of football. But I am worried for him as Levy isn't known for his patience. I think Ange's system does work. I think most systems work in theory. But I think they key to it working is for the attackers to create and score more goals. On paper 74 goals seems like a lot, but for such a front foot team it's not close to enough. If we make the most of our pressing and quick transitions we kill teams off and the impetus of the game doesn't change which will mean we concede less. But I look at our front line and I'm not convinced that we've got enough to make the most of Ange's system. I think we've bought some amazing young players and then we've got the academy boys coming through. But unless the likes of Odobert, Moore and Bergvall have Dele like impacts in their first seasons, Ange might struggle to survive. Maybe we'll sign a senior attacking player, who is a real difference maker this week, but I'm not holding my breath. Otherwise I could see another season when we look great in many games, but on too many occassions we'll fail to capitalise and over the course of the season, come up short.

I agree with everything you have said. I guess ultimately, it’ll be down to the fans to support Ange and dare I say “trust the process”.
Levy will react to the fans feelings. If we repeat what we did last season, and there is no massive improvement in end result. Will we, as fans still support him or will we be back to singing Pochettino’s name?

 

[ajspurs]

That's what worries me really in that we can analyse the Leicester game and dissect it to ascertain how things could have been more positive if things went a little differently, but this was against a really poor side that we managed to get caught out against, for whatever reason, and whatever is citied as justification for that, I don't think it's any coincidence at the same time. That's the issue when you continuously neglect certain defensive principles, in that yes you have a higher chance of controlling games and scoring more, but any side regardless of the level also has too great of a capability to catch you out.

The thing with the Leicester game also is that yes if we took our chances we could have won 4-0, but if we defended better as a unit and not been so familiarly open we'd have gotten away with the 1-0, so it goes both ways really, and there will be many more games in the league where the opposition is much tougher than Leicester, so we're going to have to learn how to rely on some sort of defensive robustness at some point.

It's why I'm going into games like the one after today's at Newcastle thinking there's absolutely no way we don't concede a couple of goals, which however you want to play and how good a standard of attacking football you want to produce, is not a good likelihood to have sewn into the side, even if that is just opinion as of now.

 

[Real_madyidd]

I like Ange, I really do. However, there are glaring weaknesses within our team structure that he needs to address to push us on. I think that, like a lot of top managers, he’ll be too stubborn to do that, which could ultimately be his downfall. And I can’t help thinking that with just a few tweaks, we would be so much better, and that there must be other managers watching us and thinking the same - as in they could come in and change a couple of simple things and make us much stronger.

Personally, I would go for Gomes to add bite, and possibly Koopmeiners for a bit of control and stability with leadership. Let Bergvall and Gray learn and develop uner those two, instead of pinning all our hope on them alone.

If only it were that simple. You also have to consider how Bergvall (who has massive potential) and Gray (who although young, was already playing for Leeds and cost a lot of money) would feel about going further down the pecking order. I personally would not be stopping them from getting competitive match time.

Having said that, nobody here sees the full training sessions. Watch we see as gaps may well be covered.

 

[mil1lion]

I really cannot understand the mind set of some of our fans.
Don't care how long you've supported THFC we've always been a win some lose some since I started going to the Lane in mid 50's.
Yes I'm lucky enough to have been able to see the Double winning side play as well as cup finals at Wembley, and enjoyed the Bus parade but I've also seen us relegated as well.
We've played some great entertaining stuff and stuff equivalent to the 3'rd tier.
Unless we are clever with our spending or, GOD forbid, we get bought out by other MONEY me/country. We will win some and lose some.
Just enjoy the winning when it comes and suffer the losing with a tad of decorum.

It's better than that really though, we win more than we lose and have been that way for a long time now. Always challenging for Europe but only started to feel disappointed because we wanted more. We need to find balance between being happy challenging for Europe while also wanting to push further for titles. Like being happy in your personal life doesn't mean not wanting more in life. It just feels like people go from one extreme to another. We lost so get mad and call us shit. Win well and we're great and not far from a title push.

 

[Fidget]

We can have a better overall season and end up finishing lower than last year, if we start to see things coming together in less defensive errors and better finishing.
Think it’d be good to remember that last season’s final position reflected an absolutely unbelievable first 10 games.

 

[thelak]

In the off season last year, everyone thought 8th would be the best we could manage. So many of our players written off, no-one was good enough. Porro can't defend. He and Udogie aren't full backs. Son past it. VDV a cheap option. Vicario a cheap option who can't play. etc. etc. And yet, Ange coached them to be more than the sum of their parts. And his recruitment proved to be incredibly shrewd. Why has everyone forgotten that that was the case last season, and acting as if it's not possible that he can coach this team to be better again this year, or that signings will be better than people necessarily think?

Second half of last season was rough, but that doesn't mean the first half of the season didn't happen.

First half against Leicester was some of the best football we've played under Ange, despite not scoring the goals. People need to chill.

Guess the issue with the first half being great and second half bad is it raises the question of did the league just need a bit of time to figure out his tactics and once they did it’s been fairly easy to nullify

even against Leicester (who I expect to be one of the worst teams in the league) Steve Cooper was able to tweak the tactics and the tide turned