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Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

teok

Well-Known Member
Aug 11, 2011
11,019
34,413
It's all a bit of a storm in a teacup for me. I understand ange's perspective and the fans. Maybe just a bit of a collective letting off of steam. A weird/flat end to the season.

We could all do with a summer holiday at this point. (y)
 

KirstyG

Well-Known Member
Jul 16, 2015
1,169
4,796
We still banging on about this?

we need to draw a line and get over it as still an important game left and need to show all of us we can pull together.
 

jolsnogross

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2005
3,874
5,799
Ok so I'm getting bored of this now because we are never going to agree so this will be my last post in reply.

Ange is telling the players the staff and everyone that will listen. THIS is how things need to be, not occasionally or most of the time ALWAYS! he's been telling them that throughout this entire season. Yes it'll take time for them to get to this point but that is the message he has to keep drilling into them. The environment is an important factor in this. It's not just the players that need to believe it, it's the coaches, it's the kit man it's everyone the players come in contact with, and it's the fans on a match day. They have to believe that whatever is happening both leading up to and during a game we can still win it right up until that final whistle. That was set back on Tuesday whether you care to admit it or not. Real winners don't take a day off from trying to win.
This the same message nearly every manager has. Conte lost his fucking mind over it. Jol was the first in Levy's time to keep banging on about it. Poch spoke incessantly about winning mentality.

It's a bit rich that Ange is getting bent out of shape about it now. He fucked away the cup match vs Fulham and dismissed all criticism and angst about it at the time. Did he not set the tone himself there? Same when taking plaudits, fucking plaudits, for getting thrashed 4-1 at home to Chelsea. And recently all was going in the right direction despite some hammerings in a 4 game losing streak.

Hopefully they don't fuck it up further by failing to get a point at bottom team and one of the PL's worst ever sides at the weekend. Then enjoy the jaunt to Australia. Then tool up for next season.

Less talk or hissy fitting about mentality in the stands and more displays of it on the pitch would be most welcome.
 

yido_number1

He'll always be magic
Jun 8, 2004
8,812
17,196
Is there any suggestion about which members of staff bothered Ange?
Sure we'll find out when they are turfed at the end of the year. Imagine a load of them have been joking about throwing the game.

Probably ex players at the club that get the rivalry and he'd probably be right to remove them if they were joking or putting it out there. I doubt someone like jedinak would do It so probably looking at Mason, Davies etc
 

Led Revolver

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2012
901
3,269
Isn't that Ange's point? And Conte's before him for that matter? That is what needs to change and what Ange needs to instil in them. That's why Ange is refusing to change his philosophy. The players have to learn that regardless the opposition and regardless of the outcome they have to treat every game the same, they all matter just as much as each other. Once they have that focussed mindset the tweaks can take place.
I’ve been saying this every time someone says to me that he has no plan B!
 

mpickard2087

Patient Zero
Jun 13, 2008
21,926
32,703
Mate the only way things will change is if we grab the bull by the horns and seriously improve the overall quality of the squad to compete at the top consistently.

It starts and ends there.
On this - Yes hopefully you get top quality players who can help you take on the very top teams, that’s always the ultimate goal, but the main starting point for making change would be recruitment that is more ruthless, a little bit radical if needs be, and definitely much more hyper-focused to what the team and manager requires.

Our parameters always seem very narrow as to how we operate in the transfer market and identify players:

The two or three agents/agencies we are pally with.

Those players who we get a hard-on for largely because its known clubs need to sell and we think we can get one over on them and be the bully for once. Last few years that’s happened with Richarlison and Johnson.

And then there are the individuals in charge and their preferences. However well you think he might have done, Paratici has mainly focused on Serie A and old players he has links with. Before that Mourinho and getting in bed with Mendes clients. This new system might not be perfect but hopefully now with a data-led approach we at least get a wider spread of who we’re looking at to start with before then identifying what we hope are the right targets to improve us.

We then get to hyper-focusing and drilling down on the attributes and abilities needed at that time. Ange wants to attack and out-football teams every game (we even bossed the ball against City), ok but you have to build to that plus realise you will come up against teams who park the bus. That clearly means getting technical players who can operate in minimal space. It means wingers who have top end acceleration and agility and dribbling control/skill to be able to beat a guy in 5 yards and play extremely intricate stuff (hopefully end product on the top of that, but those first three things are core non-negotiables), not Brennan Johnson’s or Timmy Werner’s. You need Number 10’s who can operate between the lines in the tightest of spaces, that may mean improving on Maddison and at least getting someone else in there to compliment him, probably means you only need Pape Sarr in certain games, and doesn’t require more box-crashing runners like Connor Gallagher. And so on….

Obviously recruitment is not an exact science, you do not make perfect linear progress, and it’s always an ongoing process… but would be nice for once to have 11 good fits we’re then looking to improve on, rather than what constantly feels like having at least two or three square pegs in the line up at a time hampering us as we have done over many managers now.

Then there is also being either ruthless or radical when required. Ruthless in terms of both performance and upgrading – Top players at top teams are at that apex because they consistently perform. If the likes of Maddison, or Bissouma, or whoever, can’t do that then you make a decision on them. It also means not being afraid to look for upgrades of solid performers if necessary – a very unpopular one I’ve used a couple of times now is Vicario, up there with the best shot-stoppers but can’t really spray the passes around and take out lines of the opposition press like many other keepers can. If you are determined to out-football the others and that is your gameplan, maybe that is something you do look at. Two teams at the top we’re trying to emulate somewhat, City ruthlessly ditched Joe Hart and cycled through a couple of options before getting to Ederson. Arsenal got Ramsdale and then - again that word ruthless - ditched him for Raya because they thought he could do the core competencies of their game plan even better. One example for one position, but we must keep it in mind and never have anything off the table to try and improve…

As for the radical aspect, I go back to the premise of how we’re trying to play. They claim it’s a bit extreme this style of play, always wanting to attack, always wanting to out-football whoever you come up against. Well ok, signings might have to have the touch of the extreme about it. Be prepared to play dual 10’s each week ahead of the pivot. If you want your fullbacks to play as midfielders and No.10’s and are going to need the technical ability to operate and create in those condensed spaces then how about looking at players who already play those positions, and going with the outlook that it might be better to teach a career midfielder/10 defensive duties rather than a career FB how to become a creative lynchpin…

Longer post than I intended, but the tl;dr version of it is basically we have to drill down and focus better on the recruitment process first, and hopefully better quality and better fits for the team come on top of that. Less signings because they’re bargains, or opportunities, or we can get one over on a selling club, or we know the agents, or because recruitment knows the player from prior… Scouring for the best and widest choice available to give Ange, or whoever the manager, the needed tools for how they want to play, rather than shopping in convenient subsections.
 

Archibald&Crooks

Aegina Expat
Admin
Feb 1, 2005
55,752
206,649
I’ve been saying this every time someone says to me that he has no plan B!
No plan B is something that's been levelled at every manager since the armistice of 1918. If you follow that, we've appointed about 25 managers, none of whom have ever had a Plan B. What are the odds :D

I don't think some people would know a Plan B if it heaved it's cock out and eased it up their nostrils :D
 

worcestersauce

"I'm no optimist I'm just a prisoner of hope
Jan 23, 2006
27,073
45,467
I can't get away from the feeling that what he has done has put this ball firmly in the top man's court. "Right I've said my piece now what are you going to do about it, prove them right"?
 

Nerine

Juicy corned beef
Jan 27, 2011
4,935
18,188
On this - Yes hopefully you get top quality players who can help you take on the very top teams, that’s always the ultimate goal, but the main starting point for making change would be recruitment that is more ruthless, a little bit radical if needs be, and definitely much more hyper-focused to what the team and manager requires.

Our parameters always seem very narrow as to how we operate in the transfer market and identify players:

The two or three agents/agencies we are pally with.

Those players who we get a hard-on for largely because its known clubs need to sell and we think we can get one over on them and be the bully for once. Last few years that’s happened with Richarlison and Johnson.

And then there are the individuals in charge and their preferences. However well you think he might have done, Paratici has mainly focused on Serie A and old players he has links with. Before that Mourinho and getting in bed with Mendes clients. This new system might not be perfect but hopefully now with a data-led approach we at least get a wider spread of who we’re looking at to start with before then identifying what we hope are the right targets to improve us.

We then get to hyper-focusing and drilling down on the attributes and abilities needed at that time. Ange wants to attack and out-football teams every game (we even bossed the ball against City), ok but you have to build to that plus realise you will come up against teams who park the bus. That clearly means getting technical players who can operate in minimal space. It means wingers who have top end acceleration and agility and dribbling control/skill to be able to beat a guy in 5 yards and play extremely intricate stuff (hopefully end product on the top of that, but those first three things are core non-negotiables), not Brennan Johnson’s or Timmy Werner’s. You need Number 10’s who can operate between the lines in the tightest of spaces, that may mean improving on Maddison and at least getting someone else in there to compliment him, probably means you only need Pape Sarr in certain games, and doesn’t require more box-crashing runners like Connor Gallagher. And so on….

Obviously recruitment is not an exact science, you do not make perfect linear progress, and it’s always an ongoing process… but would be nice for once to have 11 good fits we’re then looking to improve on, rather than what constantly feels like having at least two or three square pegs in the line up at a time hampering us as we have done over many managers now.

Then there is also being either ruthless or radical when required. Ruthless in terms of both performance and upgrading – Top players at top teams are at that apex because they consistently perform. If the likes of Maddison, or Bissouma, or whoever, can’t do that then you make a decision on them. It also means not being afraid to look for upgrades of solid performers if necessary – a very unpopular one I’ve used a couple of times now is Vicario, up there with the best shot-stoppers but can’t really spray the passes around and take out lines of the opposition press like many other keepers can. If you are determined to out-football the others and that is your gameplan, maybe that is something you do look at. Two teams at the top we’re trying to emulate somewhat, City ruthlessly ditched Joe Hart and cycled through a couple of options before getting to Ederson. Arsenal got Ramsdale and then - again that word ruthless - ditched him for Raya because they thought he could do the core competencies of their game plan even better. One example for one position, but we must keep it in mind and never have anything off the table to try and improve…

As for the radical aspect, I go back to the premise of how we’re trying to play. They claim it’s a bit extreme this style of play, always wanting to attack, always wanting to out-football whoever you come up against. Well ok, signings might have to have the touch of the extreme about it. Be prepared to play dual 10’s each week ahead of the pivot. If you want your fullbacks to play as midfielders and No.10’s and are going to need the technical ability to operate and create in those condensed spaces then how about looking at players who already play those positions, and going with the outlook that it might be better to teach a career midfielder/10 defensive duties rather than a career FB how to become a creative lynchpin…

Longer post than I intended, but the tl;dr version of it is basically we have to drill down and focus better on the recruitment process first, and hopefully better quality and better fits for the team come on top of that. Less signings because they’re bargains, or opportunities, or we can get one over on a selling club, or we know the agents, or because recruitment knows the player from prior… Scouring for the best and widest choice available to give Ange, or whoever the manager, the needed tools for how they want to play, rather than shopping in convenient subsections.

to do everyone a MASSIVE favour I asked ChatGPT to summarise this post:

“The main point is that to improve a team, recruitment needs to be more focused, radical, and ruthless. This involves widening the scope of players considered, focusing on attributes required by the team's style, and being willing to make tough decisions to upgrade the squad. It's about finding the right fits for the team's strategy rather than settling for convenient signings”

You’re welcome.
 

ohtottenham!

Well-Known Member
Aug 15, 2013
7,524
13,118
I can't get away from the feeling that what he has done has put this ball firmly in the top man's court. "Right I've said my piece now what are you going to do about it, prove them right"?
Think he's nervously shuffled it there. If he'd been firm about it, think we know the outcome.
 

EssexSH27

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2011
1,220
4,160
Is there any suggestion about which members of staff bothered Ange?
Probably like a security guard or something that said don’t try too hard tonight. Bizarre to call it out externally, just deal with it in private
 

thebenjamin

Well-Known Member
Jul 1, 2008
12,542
40,051
Having thought about it, I believe that supporters being so wrapped up in what their club means in terms of identity and local rivalry that they would actually want their team to lose a fotoball match should be celebrated as something important. Not castigated.

I really believe it's one of the last bastions of football actually meaning something authentic. It's about representation, your identity, who you are and where you come from. In the age of half and half scarves, sitting next to vloggers recording the match on their phones, the ticket prices, the horrific commercialisation of the game... hating your neighbourhood rivals so much that you want your own team to lose a match speaks to the core of what is great about football. It is and always has been as much about hate as it is about love.

When I say I hate Arsenal, it's not something I say because I'm a Spurs fan and I'm duty bound. I fucking mean it. I FUCKING DESPISE THEM. If I love Tottenham 100% I hate Arsenal 99.99999. Them not winning isn't as important as us winning, but it's pretty fucking close. I went to a school where every kid in my year apart from me and one other were Scum. They won 2 doubles in that time and we were shit. It was fucking traumatising. My kids are in the same situation now; I can't have them going through that. My dad was there in 71 when they won the league in our stadium. We were both there in 2004 when it happened again. Their fucking parade GOES PAST MY HOUSE. I had to leave the country for a month to get away from them.

Here's your choice: Win this game and Arsenal win the title. Unbridled joy. 'Tottenham Hotspur, you won us the league'. The 7 years we had over them a distant memory. They're back on top, and catapulted back into the big time. Or alternatively, we don't win our game and they win absolutely nothing. It's just a good season where they got a half decent points total. Their fans are completely devastated, heartbroken, pubs in Islington flooded with tears, children in Arsenal's 9th kit release of the year crying into their dad's beret, possibly never to recover, carrying that trauma with them for the rest of their lives. HMMM, TOUGH FUCKING CHOICE THAT IS

And you know what? That's good. Without genuine hatred, football is dead as a sport that means anything about identity and geography and representation. Sanitised to the point of utter meaninglessness. Kids will just support Ronaldo and Mbappe and fuck their local team.

I understand the arguments against it, and particularly Ange's points. They're professionals, it's completely different. He's trying to install a proper mentality which we oh so sorely need -- I support him 100%.

But for supporters hatred is good. Football is built on hate. For something to mean so much that you would want your own team to lose means this sport actually represents something important.

Did I want us to lose to destroy their season and ruin the hopes and dreams of tens of thousands of gooners? You're god damn right I did. FUCK ARSENAL
 
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Riandor

COB Founder
May 26, 2004
9,436
11,694
There is definitely a cultural issue that needs adressing at the fan level though. A mind set has crept in over the years that basically says we want to behave like a big club, but we know ultimately we will dissapoint. I've seen too many fans rock up to matches expecting the worst to happen and thus there is always this level of unnease, of flakiness.

By contrast, the "fanaticism" of Liverpool supporters is ridiculed here and yes often I agree, but the sweetspot has to be somewhere in between. I know every paying fan has the right to expres their opinions how they (legally) see fit, but we asa fan group don't even create a cauldron of us vs the world at home. We should look at ourselves as much as looking at the team.

We say it ourselves, the fans don't change, the team does. So if we are the constant, it is up to us to make sure THFC is a date to whince at seeing on the calender. Irrespective of how the team plays, WE should be performing better. Yeah I know we get caught up in the performance of the players etc... but frankly what we showed as a supporter group against Chelsea, was the exception, whereas it should be the norm.

I see a lot mor football in Germany these days vs back home, but it's like going Mainz. Other than the "noise brigade" that you get at any German stadium, the Mainz fans are more akin to us. Clap, sit, mostly moan at how they will ultimately F it up. At bigger teams, like Leipzig or Dortmund, or maybe more telling, Frankfurt... it's more akin to Liverpool. It doesn't matter where they are on the current form scale. THis is our stadium, you are in our house. Don't care we are losing 4-0 AGAIN. Players change, but we don't! SO make it count, show rivals what it is like to come to THFC, make the players want that feeling and be fuelled by our passion.

We are waiting for it to happen, but it should be us MAKING it happen.
That is for me what Ange is driving at, at least the portion that is "aimed" at the fans.
 

mil1lion

This is the place to be
May 7, 2004
42,994
79,923
Correct but the pressures that come with the "run in" do make a difference, losing to a title rival in January and April/May although it is the same 3 points the mental aspect of it in terms of momentum and psychology count for a lot. One loss at the business end and sometimes the wheels can come off, a loss in January can be shrugged off a lot easier.
This is it and it's the issue we face where the players don't play well enough when it matters. Even Man City were cagey and Pep mentioned that tension after the match. However the team who won was the team who thrives under pressure. We have a great record against City but the 2 home games we played this season were bigger games and no surprises we lost them (one for the FA Cup and one for a chance at 4th).

Psychology is massive in football and there's a reason teams play the same time on the final game of the season. At the start of the season you can say the players were relaxed and went on a great run. Then in the Chelsea game the pressure started to mount in the game and we fell apart. Then we had to navigate games with many injuries and again the pressure is on as we're around top spot with expectations raised. Then players return after we dropped a bit down the table and the pressure is there to get back on form. End of the season we have 3 games in hand on Villa but the 3 games are Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool so again we failed under pressure. We played well against City but again we failed to convert chances and lost.

Our form business end of the season against better opponents when the stakes are higher has shown we have a long way to go still.
 
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