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Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

Goldman

Well-Known Member
Jul 14, 2004
7,110
2,184
Anyone thinking Brennan Johnson isn't a major part of the solution going forward is miles off. He's not a development player, he's a major signing and one I expect Ange intends to have central to his plans.

The idea that we'll just sign better players wholesale - replacing a very recent 47 million one no less - and all will then work out fine is unbelievably naïve.
He’s young and talented. But a big outlay should not dictate whether a player remains in the long term plans. It should be more so how they adapt to the coach’s vision and team dynamics.

Our most expensive signings have been flops for the most part, and holding on to them long term has obviously been detrimental.

Not knocking Johnson personally and I see the potential. But let’s keep the tap dancing shoes on and not get married to an investment if a better opportunity presents itself.
 

fishhhandaricecake

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2018
19,893
49,685
Anyone thinking Brennan Johnson isn't a major part of the solution going forward is miles off. He's not a development player, he's a major signing and one I expect Ange intends to have central to his plans.

The idea that we'll just sign better players wholesale - replacing a very recent 47 million one no less - and all will then work out fine is unbelievably naïve.
Johnson should absolutely be part of our plans but as an impact bench player as he’s still young and needs to improve. We need to sign minimum 2 out and out top quality attacking players who are more game changers and then Johnson is an impact sub most often.

Kulu however needs to be no where near our squad if I’m honest, he consistently offers absolutely nothing in this set-up.
 

fishhhandaricecake

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2018
19,893
49,685
Different times but putting this one out there..

Alex Ferguson’s season finishes at Man.U:
86-87: 11th
87-88: 2nd
88-89: 11th
89-90: 13th
90-91: 6th
91-92: 2nd

SAF’s side lost 5-1 to a terrible Man.City side in the 1989 season.

Even when they were a great side they lost:
5-0 vs Newcastle in 1996
6-3 vs Southampton 1996
5-0 vs Chelsea 1999
6-1 vs C

The rest is history….

Look don’t get me wrong our current form is very poor in allbeit a very hard run of fixtures, and Ange’s tactics look like they could do win tweaking a bit and a handful of heavy defeats in a row is not good but I really think let’s judge him IF/WHEN we give him the players he thinks he needs to really make this work consistently, if after that we are having the same issues and he’s not tweaking anything tactically then we will have a problem but he needs at least 2 more decent windows and likely a good 5-10 players to give him the squad he wants to challenge for a title etc.
 

Laboog

Well-Known Member
Jul 10, 2020
702
1,343
Different times but putting this one out there..

Alex Ferguson’s season finishes at Man.U:
86-87: 11th
87-88: 2nd
88-89: 11th
89-90: 13th
90-91: 6th
91-92: 2nd

SAF’s side lost 5-1 to a terrible Man.City side in the 1989 season.

Even when they were a great side they lost:
5-0 vs Newcastle in 1996
6-3 vs Southampton 1996
5-0 vs Chelsea 1999
6-1 vs C

The rest is history….

Look don’t get me wrong our current form is very poor in allbeit a very hard run of fixtures, and Ange’s tactics look like they could do win tweaking a bit and a handful of heavy defeats in a row is not good but I really think let’s judge him IF/WHEN we give him the players he thinks he needs to really make this work consistently, if after that we are having the same issues and he’s not tweaking anything tactically then we will have a problem but he needs at least 2 more decent windows and likely a good 5-10 players to give him the squad he wants to challenge for a title etc.
I agree. It's impossible to judge a manager in his first season, especially when he doesn't have his guys.

This is not only the first season for key players like Sarr, VvD, Udogie, Vicario, Johnson(kind of) but it's also Anges first season in England. Let's give him a few transfer windows and another year before really judging what he's like.

Either way, this season is better than most hoped for to start the year so overall it's been a positive first season.
 

Ossie85

Rio de la Plata
Aug 2, 2008
3,943
13,288
Our problem is 100% our attacking play and our midfield. And because we are so blunt in attack the opposition gains confidence and puts us to the sword.

If you go back and watch all the games from Newcastle onwards, every game has started with Spurs being in control for the first 10 minutes. Then the opposition get into the game and punish us. Our only goals have come after 60 mins mark after being 4 and 3 goals down respectively.
We were “in control” because the let us. Everyone already knows that we are the easiest team to counter attack. We overload the attack and leave only VDV to save us if we lose it. Plus Vicario is not a sweeper. It’s extremely easy for anyone.
And your theory doesn’t touch set pieces. I don’t think there’s another team worst than us defending set pieces. And that’s all on Ange
 

jolsnogross

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2005
3,890
5,824
Johnson should absolutely be part of our plans but as an impact bench player as he’s still young and needs to improve. We need to sign minimum 2 out and out top quality attacking players who are more game changers and then Johnson is an impact sub most often.

Kulu however needs to be no where near our squad if I’m honest, he consistently offers absolutely nothing in this set-up.
Every manager needs out-and-out top quality attacking players. It is concerning that the argument for steadiness, patience, and resolve with the manager is that we'll just magically get our signings right in a way we haven't been previously. I mean, nobody is saying we should bin Johnson, but it seems ye are saying he's more of an impact sub than a key player moving forward. And that Kulu should be nowhere near the squad? And Maddison (according to me in another thread) has been a waste of space outside of those first 10 games.

Is Ange et al suddenly going to find the out-and-out top quality now in a way that they weren't when signing Johnson and Maddison?

I think the decline this season with the players we have, over the full arc of the season, is really concerning. The manager needs time to implement his vision, but the current sample size of a full season and the trajectory throughout that season is the sort of thing Ange himself would find persuasive. We can't keep sleepwalking to defeats and it's not all that reassuring to think we're just a couple of new top class players away from the promised land.
 

piedpiper

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2008
3,847
6,947
I'm so tired of hearing that manager X doesn't have his players therefore we can't judge him yet. Conte, Mourinho, Nuno Esperito, Ange......blooming hell.

Unai Emery joined Villa in November 2022 they were 17th or in the relegation zone..... he got them to 7th...." without his players" in his 2nd season he has them in 4th.

Any manager worth his salt works with what he has and makes tweaks along the way to the playing personnel.

We have been a shambles okay maybe a tad strong saying shambles but a team devoid of a plan B in EVERy game amd that's on the manager.

He plays a highline and has a keeper who doesn't command his box. Good reflexes and no more. Sent Reguilon away for another loan spell when he could have been used here.

He Is resistant to using our academy .... so many of our problems come back to Ange and his coaching team. A band of merry brothers.

I'm.not saying he should be sacked..... but let's not defend him blindly. he gets 5th and I'm okay with it... it's slight progress on last year I predicted 8th to 9th at the beginning of the season and even when we were 1st on October I still thought it to be a false position
 

SaKkA.kenchiku

Well-Known Member
Sep 23, 2006
150
585
Us spurs fans make the same mistakes as always, jumped on bandwagon after a few great results and exciting performances then talk about sacking him after a run of poor results. Levy follows suit and we repeat. Lost Kane and finishing 5th and an overhaul of our boring football. I have enjoyed this season apart from the last month. We've run out of steam, a few players have gone off the boil. We were bang average last season, a few signings isn't going to change that. We sound more and more like the gooners who have been massively owners out, arteta out and forgot all about it now. Arteta lost four in a row start of season last year or the season before....The board didn't listen to the fickle fans and now they are 2nd best to City. The world's best managers would struggle to finish 5th with the team Spurs had last season minus Kane. Who has shown to be the best striker in the world by far. End of second season is when we should start to review, but the negativity is likely to spiral as it always does because we don't stick with the manager after some bad results, say they lost the players get rid of the manager form fan pressure then we are stuck with the same players same culture that fall away when they get tired/bored. I will review Ange at the end of the next season, if the board have improved squad by 2/3 key players.. If he actually is given time but the fans as, Levy bends to us.
 

nico97531

Well-Known Member
Dec 5, 2006
614
991
And again a big part of the reason we struggled is because as I said our entire front 3 can’t retain possession or do anything on the ball, they all need to run away from it to be effective.
Which then begs the question, why do you set up the team to play in a way that the players are technically incapable of doing?

Why insist on playing in a way that’s exposing their weaknesses instead of tweaking the system to utilize their strength?
 

GutBucket

Well-Known Member
May 26, 2013
7,048
11,920
Can't leak that many goals and be successful here, we give too much confidence to others teams. Nicolas Jackson could miss 20 sitters in a row but he will have Spurs games marked on his calendar knowing he will score against us. More dominant midfield and much better front 3 would certainly help, but we also need better coaching for when we don't have possession, better set pieces, better subs etc. If we keep buying solid technical players goood things will happen eventually, especially if some of our academy kids live up to their potential.
 

Danny1

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2006
5,758
17,935
We were “in control” because the let us. Everyone already knows that we are the easiest team to counter attack. We overload the attack and leave only VDV to save us if we lose it. Plus Vicario is not a sweeper. It’s extremely easy for anyone.
And your theory doesn’t touch set pieces. I don’t think there’s another team worst than us defending set pieces. And that’s all on Ange
It’s funny because I keep seeing people saying this, yet it’s not what Klopp said after the game.

I guess the random people on here know more than one of the best ever coaches in the PL.
 

cookiemonster

Well-Known Member
Dec 29, 2005
2,762
5,957
Never seen a manager react so nonchalantly to the ridiculous number of goals we concede

Any decent manager will say ...we need to tighten up.we need to work on defending set pieces,we need to defend better etc

This chap just totally ignored this and says oh I like the way we played the last 20mins

We are already 4-0 down...Mate
 

Japhet

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2010
19,351
57,940
When Ange joined the general consensus was that we would most likely have a rocky first season and people seemed happy to accept that. We then got off to a flyer and expectations blossomed. However, weaknesses were identified and then started to be exploited.

Opponents noticed our zonal marking and lack of protection for Vicario and have exploited it successfully and relentlessly ever since.

We're prone to coughing up possession in attacking areas and frequently leave ourselves short in defence at the same time.

Those, imo have been the 2 main issues and they have been easy to exploit because we haven't really adapted to the situation. Defensively, all the opponents have done is identify where our big players are on set plays and then put their aerial threats somewhere else. Brennan Johnson has found himself failing to defend aerial balls against players like Chalobah, Cucurella and Kurt Zouma and Vicario has been shoved around at set plays for months now since Man City spotted it and used it as an effective tactic.

Sonny frequently coughs up possession because they hunt him down knowing that he's not strong at ball retention. Kulusevski is pretty much the same in that his final ball is often poor. Emerson was hunted down by Liverpool to good effect too. My criticism of Ange and the coaching staff is that we haven't adapted to some very obvious problem areas quickly enough, and that lack of pragmatism has cost us very dearly recently. I've been calling for one of our players to try to shield Vicario, or at least not give opponents a free run at him on corners and it appears that some of that is now starting to happen, but it was a very long time coming. I'm 100% behind Ange.

As for ball retention, I simply don't understand why Gio has been used so infrequently when he is such a clever user of the ball but also gets stuck in defensively.

As a final point, I'd have taken a Europa League place very gratefully at the start of the season, and I think we can still do that, but I'd like to see a lot more pragmatism when obvious weak areas are being exploited.
 
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whenstevewentup

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2021
469
1,533
We are at our most vulnerable when we’re attacking , as soon as we lose the ball the opponent creates a chance , in my 45 years of supporting spurs I’ve probably only seen such a circus under Ossie . We are so badly coached , it’s no wonder the players and a large proportion of the fan base have lost belief . The Salah goal ( unmarked ) the Robertson goal ( nobody reacting to the rebound , like Chelsea ) the gapko goal , nobody getting back and allowing 2 against 1 in the box against Romero , Elliott was a great goal but look at the players just watching him , nobody wanted to block the shot or engage the player , it’s the absolute basics we don’t do , minimal effort by the team and zero shape . The sign of a good team is their ability to grab points away from home .
 

Gassin's finest

C'est diabolique
May 12, 2010
38,393
91,099
We are at our most vulnerable when we’re attacking , as soon as we lose the ball the opponent creates a chance , in my 45 years of supporting spurs I’ve probably only seen such a circus under Ossie . We are so badly coached , it’s no wonder the players and a large proportion of the fan base have lost belief . The Salah goal ( unmarked ) the Robertson goal ( nobody reacting to the rebound , like Chelsea ) the gapko goal , nobody getting back and allowing 2 against 1 in the box against Romero , Elliott was a great goal but look at the players just watching him , nobody wanted to block the shot or engage the player , it’s the absolute basics we don’t do , minimal effort by the team and zero shape . The sign of a good team is their ability to grab points away from home .
Accurate comparison actually. The whole fab five, all out attack thing. That was a good team on paper, but couldn't resist a stiff breeze.
 

Haddock

Captain
Oct 16, 2017
2,038
6,399
We're all frustrated and I'd say we have good reasons to be. The last few matches aren't a disaster but I fear that from the club hierarchy's perspective we're in a catch 22. This poor run of form will most likely be lingering in Levy's mind: Do you give Big Ange the keys to the castle?

Without a big clear out and big investments it will be hard to improve long-term. That is clear after our recent form. If Ange isn't given mandate to fulfill his vision we're bound to see more of the same.

I fear that we will be caught half-way. The players that need to be sold won't be sold and we Levy will settle with cheaper punts rather than going for the elite-players. If you're the glass if half-full guy, then yes, we have seen more investment the last two windows but looking at the huge clear outs at Liverpool and Arsenal that was necessary for them to improve, does Levy has that in him?

This is why I feel like the recent form could have long-term implications. We would really have needed to end the season on high, to keep the momentum and to encourage Levy to invest in Anges vision.
 

bobbof

Well-Known Member
Jan 31, 2011
781
1,550
100% mate. Great point.

Arsenal let PEA go and sold Lacazette. 2 players who were worth goals and 2 players who cost a lot.

They replaced them with a kid who had been playing for a second tier team in Brazil, an academy player and a supposed wonder kid from Madrid. They then gave Nketiah a chance and signed Gabriel Jesus who isn't potent at all.

These are not truly world class players but they work because they all fit the system.

We don't need elite players right now (although I hope we get lucky enough) but we do need players who can operate here.

Look at Trossard. He's not a world beater, but he fits Arsenal's system and his strengths work well i side it.

Ange needs wingers who are positive in 1v1s, centre forwards who have superb movement and 1 touch passing abilities.

We will then see an ability to sustain pressure and attacks, that increases our chances of scoring because they don't need to be world beaters because they will get a large number of chances as the opposition tires.

Right now we have attackers who throw up the ball far top easily.

Seriously, watch our patterns of play, we work thr ball into the final third well enough and then it constantly breaks down.

Not only that but we don't respond fast enough to get ot back.

If our attackers coukd retain the ball or pin defenders repeatedly, we will stop being so vulnerable to counter attacks and we will tire teams out.

Arteta even said we pinned them back but only Kulusevski was managing to hold onto the ball, Son and Maddison kept losing it.

If all three of them had some form of quality to make better choices or retain the ball better, Arsenal probably don't get the breaks they did.
Great post.

Would also like to add that we need our midfielders to actually help fill the box when crosses arrive. The amount of crosses we get where only one player is inside the box is terrifying. (And sometimes there are none…)

I don’t know if it’s laziness, or a fear of having to track back if we lose it, but we can’t keep crossing to no one. If we attack, we should do so convincingly.
 

Mr Pink

SC Supporter
Aug 25, 2010
55,674
101,985
More behind Ange than ever.

Excited for next season.

Massive summer for Daniel Levy, massive.

Thats where my judgement is heading, not Ange.

Anybody wanting Ange out will let Levy, and the board, off the hook again.

We stick with Ange and hold Levy and co to account if we dont have the minerals to seriously back him this summer.
 

Bubble44

Well-Known Member
Jan 28, 2011
274
14,269
D1 Said

Ange has boards full support , we were expecting up and down season , the squad needed huge overhaul , both johan , Fabio and ange knew it was going to take 3 to 4 windows to get right


we are back to the days of scouting young talent with huge ceiling before they get to the madrids , Barca and city like we did with Luca and bale , so you look at Brennan and Mickey and udogie they are all in that 20/21 age bracket and players do not hit their peak until 23/24 we need to be patient for them to hit their ceiling

this summer will be a huge overhaul , with the exception of first choice back 5 ,drags , madds , bentacur , sarr , sonny and Brennan we are open to offers for everyone else and in many cases encouraging offers , it’s no secret that ange does not think our front 3 is anywhere near the level it should be

we will try for Conor Gallagher again and we will be in for eze , ange is going to be heavily heavily backed this summer

much of how successful ange will be will be how well he intergrates the kids the next two years I cannot begin to express how good donley , Moore , Dorrington and the Swedish kid bergdal are we have incredible talents coming through
 

fishhhandaricecake

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2018
19,893
49,685
Every manager needs out-and-out top quality attacking players. It is concerning that the argument for steadiness, patience, and resolve with the manager is that we'll just magically get our signings right in a way we haven't been previously. I mean, nobody is saying we should bin Johnson, but it seems ye are saying he's more of an impact sub than a key player moving forward. And that Kulu should be nowhere near the squad? And Maddison (according to me in another thread) has been a waste of space outside of those first 10 games.

Is Ange et al suddenly going to find the out-and-out top quality now in a way that they weren't when signing Johnson and Maddison?

I think the decline this season with the players we have, over the full arc of the season, is really concerning. The manager needs time to implement his vision, but the current sample size of a full season and the trajectory throughout that season is the sort of thing Ange himself would find persuasive. We can't keep sleepwalking to defeats and it's not all that reassuring to think we're just a couple of new top class players away from the promised land.
Yes the idea would be to sign better attacking players then Johnson who was really signed as one for the future , Ange said as much at the start of the season but due to injuries we’d Johnson has had to play a lot of games, he’s done ok in patches but he’s not the level we need yet.

Maddison is fine as a signing he’s just a bit off form.

The manner of the defeats are concerning but it’s fairly clear to me and as Ange said that our patterns of play are ok but it breaks down when we get to the attack because the attackers are not currently good enough which gives the opposition confidence.

Again, that being said, Ange will likely still need to tweak his tactics a bit even with the new signings he needs as clearly we are too open.
 
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