What's new

Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

snakehipsspurs

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2017
2,393
16,266
The players are pathetic, but Ange takes it as a personal affront that people believe he should be coaching set pieces. Its proper weird because he's generally a tactically sophisticated coach.
I'm getting sick of people saying this. He has clarified multiple times now. He isn't saying set pieces aren't important or he won't coach them. He is saying that fixing set pieces alone won't solve the issues with the team and allow them to grow, so it's not a priority for him right now.

This is exactly the same chat as those that shit on Klopp for his gegenpress in his first season. He focused on all out press to get a mentality into his squad knowing that short term they'd ship goals. But once they had that style of play embedded in, he tweaked it and worked on the finer details and tightened things up and look at them now.

If anyone here genuinely things the difference between us and Arsenal/City is conceding a few less goals at corners you need your head checking.
 

SpartanSpur

Well-Known Member
Jan 27, 2011
12,605
43,403
This team is currently devoid of all confidence and belief. Its painful to see.

I just want to see some fire and bravery, and mostly some bollocks from this lot against Liverpool.

Make it happen Ange.
 

parj

NDombelly ate all the pies
Jul 27, 2003
3,771
6,222
Yes his main players haven't been good enough. The responsibility of that lies on both camps.

Introducing inferior players is blind hope. It doesn't work on a professional level. It's a diff story if those aformentioned players come on as subs and manage to show us that they are PL level. However for someone like Skipp, we know that he is average. Donley is a complete question mark. You can't throw points away with the hope that something might stick; the price you pay is more than just the 3 points, you will lose the dressing room completely.

My view is that Ange has to show he can manage players through adversity. I dont know how he would do that but that's what he's paid for. The rest of the season will be interesting because now we will get to see what Ange is made of.
Well if we only play his stars, even when they poor, they may as well get rid of the squad. Only need 16 players. If they are paid members of the squad then we deemed them good enough. Players out of form have no motivation if they know there is no consequences.

We paid the price plenty already with some shocking losses.
 

gibbospurs

SC Supporter
Aug 28, 2010
5,051
6,757
For the second goal there were 5 or 6 of our players standing in a line without Chelsea players in between , they just crossed over the lot of them and headed home . Is that on the coaching or players . Either way amateurish and naive
Looked like they were more concerned about holding the offside line rather than actually defending the ball over.
 

snakehipsspurs

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2017
2,393
16,266
Okay long post incoming…

There are certain teething issues I will happily lay at Ange’s feet - namely set pieces, some team selections and the lack of youth intergration. But I really don't believe what we’ve seen the last few weeks is a true reflection of his ability or coaching.

Early on this season we saw what his style is and a glimpse into our future. This happened when the players were uninhibited and playing without thinking and just enjoying themselves.

When the injury and suspension run took over, it seems various factors (fatigue, fighting through pain or playing out of position etc.) robbed a lot of the players of that confidence they had. So they stopped making the dynamic runs off the ball/trying the progressive pass they would have a few weeks earlier. And once one of those things stop, the other stops too and it becomes a vicious cycle.

Ange has been able to recapture it for moments out of them (10 mins after half time usually), but what has set in is that instead of playing his way all the time, the players have reverted to the ‘safer’ styles they’ve known their whole careers either with us or elsewhere.

This is what the ‘growing pains’ process Ange talked about looks like. The players default currently is to revert to playing safe in the face of any adversity, rather than reverting to brave, progressive play. Reversing that will come only with time - and therefore patience from us.

Crucially, a good number of these players will never get there, and therefore will need to go. I’m pretty certain that’s what Ange meant with his ‘some players haven’t bought in yet’ comments this week also.

So TLDR: Ange has made some errors, but the overall downturn in form cannot really be laid at his feet and isn’t indicative of our future either. Give him time!
 

THOWIG

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2005
6,566
8,580
Okay long post incoming…

There are certain teething issues I will happily lay at Ange’s feet - namely set pieces, some team selections and the lack of youth intergration. But I really don't believe what we’ve seen the last few weeks is a true reflection of his ability or coaching.

Early on this season we saw what his style is and a glimpse into our future. This happened when the players were uninhibited and playing without thinking and just enjoying themselves.

When the injury and suspension run took over, it seems various factors (fatigue, fighting through pain or playing out of position etc.) robbed a lot of the players of that confidence they had. So they stopped making the dynamic runs off the ball/trying the progressive pass they would have a few weeks earlier. And once one of those things stop, the other stops too and it becomes a vicious cycle.

Ange has been able to recapture it for moments out of them (10 mins after half time usually), but what has set in is that instead of playing his way all the time, the players have reverted to the ‘safer’ styles they’ve known their whole careers either with us or elsewhere.

This is what the ‘growing pains’ process Ange talked about looks like. The players default currently is to revert to playing safe in the face of any adversity, rather than reverting to brave, progressive play. Reversing that will come only with time - and therefore patience from us.

Crucially, a good number of these players will never get there, and therefore will need to go. I’m pretty certain that’s what Ange meant with his ‘some players haven’t bought in yet’ comments this week also.

So TLDR: Ange has made some errors, but the overall downturn in form cannot really be laid at his feet and isn’t indicative of our future either. Give him time!
The injuries, suspensions, AFCON etc…after that Chelsea game really scuppered our season. I also don’t think a number of players are injury free. Wouldn’t surprise me if Bentancur, Maddison and others are still carrying something.

We need to be patient.
 

dagraham

Well-Known Member
Sep 20, 2005
19,197
46,228
I saw a stat the other day that suggested we have spent around £30m less than them since Arteta arrived.

The level of spending has changed since Poch left.

Haven’t looked at the figures so can’t refute that overall, but I am mainly referring to their investment in the last couple of years. No way we’d compete with City for Rice the way they did as one example.
 

ultimateloner

Well-Known Member
Jan 25, 2004
4,615
2,287
Well if we only play his stars, even when they poor, they may as well get rid of the squad. Only need 16 players. If they are paid members of the squad then we deemed them good enough. Players out of form have no motivation if they know there is no consequences.

We paid the price plenty already with some shocking losses.
He needs extra players of sufficient calibre to handle the unexpected; injuries, suspensions etc; and meanwhile hope that those players will improve to a point where they can challenge for a starting position.
Skipp and Donley don't fall into that category.
I think you are underestimating our coaches. It's likely the easiest thing for them to know who is better than who at what.
I think we need to avoid the trap of thinking that there is an easy solution to this..like 'let's play someone else'. It's harder than this.
We've hardly paid a shocking price. We are still in a top 6 position.
 

mpickard2087

Patient Zero
Jun 13, 2008
21,940
32,751
It's this every day of the week.

I saw players taking 2-3 touches because they hadn't looked to see where to pass to.

I saw players playing weak passes and selling teammates short.

I saw players weakly losing the ball .

I saw players pick out the wrong passing option.

I saw players take a touch before looking up and then choosing a pass back.

Players failing to go with runners.

Players getting nervous and going awol from their position.

This iis mentality.

Some of these players are fine in August after preseason, new era, fresh beginnings, bit of freedom.

But as we know a season takes its toll, teams adapt, players don't get it their own way. They have to adapt, dig in, find solutions, be proactive, better execution


It's clear that we have a bunch of players incapable of doing that.

Maddison and Bissouma had these accusations at their previous clubs.

We've also got so little depth in areas Ange needs it.

For a start the midfield really lacks intelligence and balance to play the way Ange requires.

It requires faster thinking, incisive passers who can retain pressure and take players on.

The wingers we have are either not creative enough or brave enough, they need a touch, a second touch.....all that does is allow the defence to set.

We need wingers whose first touch immediately puts the defender on the back foot.

But the biggest issue of all is bravery.


I want Ange to be allowed to rip it all up.


Vicario, Romero, Van de Ven, Bentancur (when fit) are certainties. Build on them.

Sarr and Udogie plus Moore, Donley and co

The rest are on the edge or out the door.

Worst case scenario, we get a bunch of brave in the front foot' strong 1v1 players bur the coach is not doing it.

If we keep sticking with certain players and putting up with fairweather players but change the coach we won't get anywhere.
I agree with all that, but I don't think Ange has helped himself with some of the signings. He wants to out-football teams and play an extreme style but the signings - ones he was all for - don't match that really.

Brennan Johnson and Timo Werner to play on the wing. I'm not even going to comment further....

Dragusin instead of a more silky technical centre back who can carry the ball or spray passes.

People, online and amongst friends, say I'm harsh on this, but I still say you could have got a better footballing keeper than Vicario who could spray passes and bypass the lines of the opposition.

There's the apparent obsession with Gallagher, another runner athlete type. We already have box-to-box role in Sarr. We don't need more of that.

He's never tried "brave" things, eg. dual 10's like Maddison/Lo Celso in combo, or if he wants his FB's to play as midfielders why not try actual midfielders there. Sarr could maybe play the role for instance, but we never try to find out. Actually that's not fair thinking about it, he did, because at one point he said he'd rather play FB's at CB if it meant they could do more of what he wanted, but that approach (which I quite like tbh, going balls out) has never extended to other positions really like the examples I initially mentioned.

I sympathise with him that some players can't do what he wants, but he chooses the players and signed some of those who are limited in what they can do.
 

Cochise

Well-Known Member
Aug 8, 2019
5,117
13,162
I always said I'd judge Ange at 18-24 months and im sticking to that.There was always too much to do in one summer and we still need multiple positions sorting.

I am concerned by how we've fallen off a cliff performance wise, and I think the season ending soon will do him a lot of favours.
 

robotsonic

Well-Known Member
Aug 20, 2013
2,631
11,906
Still backing him to stay on 1000% into next season. At no point did he ever say anything would come quickly or easily and only ever the opposite. Nothing lasting comes quickly or easily in this league for anyone. We have to hold our nerve and stick with him and see what happens come what may. To sack him due to impatience again just sets us back 2-3 years, which should be the absolute last thing anyone with a lack of patience should want.
 

mil1lion

This is the place to be
May 7, 2004
43,328
81,440
I just hope it's down to being burnt out. A new manager with new tactics which requires a high level of fitness pressing high. An injury hit season and a squad not strong enough to rotate. The only way forward I feel is with a stronger squad and the players already here being now conditioned to it. The intensity has been lacking for a while now and it's a major factor in how Ange needs it to be. The press feels very similar to under Poch at the end. If you press but are a couple yards off the opponent is able to pass out and then get in behind far easier. Too much time to take a touch look up and pass. Then being a yard off we also give more fouls away being too late to the ball. It's the same in attack, too slow in the build up so the opposition gets back into their shape to defend. We're at our best winning the ball high up the pitch, we don't look close to doing that anymore. In a strange way Europe could help keep our fitness levels up too as we play competitive games instead of train in the week. We need the depth though so every player who comes in is right for Ange.
 

SpartanSpur

Well-Known Member
Jan 27, 2011
12,605
43,403
I'm getting sick of people saying this. He has clarified multiple times now. He isn't saying set pieces aren't important or he won't coach them. He is saying that fixing set pieces alone won't solve the issues with the team and allow them to grow, so it's not a priority for him right now.

This is exactly the same chat as those that shit on Klopp for his gegenpress in his first season. He focused on all out press to get a mentality into his squad knowing that short term they'd ship goals. But once they had that style of play embedded in, he tweaked it and worked on the finer details and tightened things up and look at them now.

If anyone here genuinely things the difference between us and Arsenal/City is conceding a few less goals at corners you need your head checking.

100%. The time for tweaks and small details is 18-24 months in. Right now there is no real value in short-term gains if they don't feed into the main philosophy.

It was never going to be plain sailing.

We've done the reactive/pragmatic thing and mostly hated it. Currently, ten Hag is in survival mode at Utd putting the short-term first and as a result is losing his identity as a manager.

I'd prefer it this way with Ange adamant in his ways, not willing to rip it all up just to try and keep his job with in the short term.

Pep, Arteta, Klopp, even to a lesser extent Poch with us, you need coaches like this to have a properly successful period these days.
 

whenstevewentup

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2021
469
1,533
I’m struggling to think of many worse in game management decisions .
The subs , the timings , the set up defensively and offensively. Managers must be licking their lips to play us . I will be shocked if Liverpool is less than 5-0.
 

Aleks

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2012
1,417
7,386
I just don’t believe Ange is the right fit for Spurs.

When there’s a ‘painful rebuild’ required you expect there to be both ups and downs, with a period of consolidation before signs of new life.

Had this been the scenario then Ange should be given the time and support to move us forward.

However, a great start followed by:
- horrendous performances
- possession based football with zero creativity
- our best attacking player (Son) looking more likely to get his pension than a new contract
- our defence on paper looking highly sought after but in reality, leaking goals at an alarming rate
- a coach who doesn’t seem interested in trying to stop the ridiculous number of set piece goals we concede or protecting his goalkeeper
- leaving out players because they’ll likely be leaving in the summer but then actively ignoring his own thoughts by playing Hojbjerg who we tried to get shot of last summer and openly wants to leave
- playing a suicidal high line, costing us goals and points
- having a brand new coaching team consisting of no highly sought after coaches or with bags of experience
- Ange being open about multiple players not buying into his vision
- his better players downing tools

This for me only ends one way and that’s with Ange leaving the club. As I say, had we had an iffy start but shown promise as the season went on or the players looking like they were becoming settled then by all means, back him in the summer. Instead we look completely disjointed, the players have given up and outside of the central defenders and Udogie, there’s no one in the squad that we can look at and think they’ve star potential (may be Sarr but that’s about it). In saying that, the squad should be performing much better than they have been since late last year. We should be playing to our strengths, not exposing our weaknesses. Ange for me is fighting a battle he’ll never win.
what players downed tools? What?
 

philll

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
9,881
33,965
I always said I'd judge Ange at 18-24 months and im sticking to that.There was always too much to do in one summer and we still need multiple positions sorting.

I am concerned by how we've fallen off a cliff performance wise, and I think the season ending soon will do him a lot of favours.
On that note I hope there's some way we can fuck this trip to Australia off. If these performances continue until the end of the season, nobody's going to be in the mood.
 

SpartanSpur

Well-Known Member
Jan 27, 2011
12,605
43,403
The problem is we just buy a lot more players still at the medium range price levels.

That's because we are throwing a load of stuff at a wall in the hope that some sticks and have been for some time.

A Rice/VVD type signing only happens when a manager knows exactly what they need and have most other positions under control.
 

tommyt

SC Supporter
Jul 22, 2005
6,222
11,172
Trust the progress. We were in freefall with Conte and with Kane leaving. Ange and the team have taken strides towards a more positive style of playing, but it needs more work.
 
Top