Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

[McFlash]

So I posed a question a couple of times, what is it in Ange's CV that leads people to believe he has what it takes to win trophies in the Prem? I am not saying I think he has or has not, I don't know if he has because he has not done it at this level, I am supporitng him becuase I am fed up of chop and change and I recognised post Poch that we need a squad rebuild under stable management.

Nothing guarantees trophies in the Prem, unless you're funded by dodgy owners.
But, Ange has won trophies everywhere he's been and each has been a step up from the last.
That for me at least, is why I think there's a good chance he can bring us some silver.

 

[Cochise]

Personally, I'm not getting too caught up in bad results right now. The amazing start to the season had us dreaming of doing more than what most expected in August. Lets be honest, most expected us to be scrapping with Brighton and Villa for the 7th and 8th spots. This was a transitional season, the first without Kane and Lloris, our leaders for the last few years.

At some point we are going to have to ride out a rough period with a manager, because no matter who we get in there is going to be a drop off at some point. We can't be just turning on the manager the moment things start to go south else we really will be in a constant state of transition forever more.

I also think things will look a bit better once Ange gets some players in he wants. A lot of people are going to point to the number of changes from last season, but I think the only players we've purchased for Ange are Micky, Vicario, Dragusin and Johnson.

 

[rossdapep]

Yes, it was a disaster at times that first season. HF, finally my J1 League mini obsession is useful. They also played a Super Cup against Vissel Kobe (I think) one year which was textbook wide open, as we've witnessed a few times ourselves. Ended up 3-3 with one of the nuttiest penalty shoot-outs at the end to boot.

Do you see some simialrities in the difficulties we are having?

Looks to me like they were capable of scoring a lot but also getting thumped, which sounds like they were too open/had difficulties in defensive transition.

Maybe even tired at the end of the season?

 

[Misfit]

Do you see some simialrities in the difficulties we are having?

Looks to me like they were capable of scoring a lot but also getting thumped, which sounds like they were too open/had difficulties in defensive transition.

Maybe even tired at the end of the season?

Basically yes. The tiredness is something that was talked about at the time. We've been slightly less keystone cops in fact. That's very likely due to the obvious bump in average individual player quality in the prem most likely but broad strokes - fairly similar.

Honestly forgot about that season when Marinos weren't a factor until we appointed Ange tbh. I watch it via their youtube channel and they don't really do player or manager interviews on there so Ange's presence wasn't even noticeable in coverage at the time. The English language commentators do a decent job of parsing any big news/topics during the games though.

 

[rossdapep]

Basically yes. The tiredness is something that was talked about at the time. We've been slightly less keystone cops in fact. That's very likely due to the obvious bump in average individual player quality in the prem most likely but broad strokes - fairly similar.

Honestly forgot about that season when Marinos weren't a factor until we appointed Ange tbh. I watch it via their youtube channel and they don't really do player or manager interviews on there so Ange's presence wasn't even noticeable in coverage at the time. The English language commentators do a decent job of parsing any big news/topics during the games though.

Great thanks for sharing.

I just realised I posted his THIRD season and not his first.

His first season actually looked worse and they finished 12th.

Would be interesting to know why they tailed off in his third season though.

 

[Misfit]

Great thanks for sharing.

I just realised I posted his THIRD season and not his first.

His first season actually looked worse and they finished 12th.

Would be interesting to know why they tailed off in his third season though.

Keep in mind that the Japanese season runs from Feb to Nov (I think they're switching from next season or the season after) so when he joined Celtic he left slap bang in the middle of the 3rd season. I can't remember that season in terms of Marinos tbh so can't remember how they were doing until he left in the summer. Everyone was still purring about Frontale's continued success when they'd been an also ran until a few years earlier.

 

[jurgen]

Many Spurs fans labelled Jose a dinosaur and washed up at 58 years of age! BTW - what was Jose's playing career like?

Yeah, and that had nothing to do with his age and everything to do with his approach to football - you seem to be about the only poster fixated on how old Ange is.

Redknapp was in his mid-60s with us, and played some of the most enjoyable football we'd seen for years, AVB was in his mid-30s and plenty hated his risk-averse sideways passing game.

 

[TOLBINY]

You keep saying he said 2 days before being sacked he wanted more time. Trix had said he'd had an improved contract handed to him around Xmas which remained unsigned. He's hardly going to answer in a press conference how much he can't wait to go is he.

I don't know for certain he was offered a new contract and if he was I don't know the terms - all I know for certain is that he asked for time and patience in a recorded press conference. I agree he is hardly likely to say he can't wait to go, but he didn't have to mention time and patience either if he wanted to leave. However, if he DID want to leave, here is my question;

Why would a proven winner on £15M a year want to leave?

You may well come up with a lot of plausible reasons - but his health issues aside (in which case why not just announce he is leaving on health grounds?) the reasons I have thought of reflect more on us as a club than they do Conte. So that's why I have posed this question previously on SC so that others might proffer something I have not considered.

 

[rossdapep]

Keep in mind that the Japanese season runs from Feb to Nov (I think they're switching from next season or the season after) so when he joined Celtic he left slap bang in the middle of the 3rd season. I can't remember that season in terms of Marinos tbh so can't remember how they were doing until he left in the summer. Everyone was still purring about Frontale's continued success when they'd been an also ran until a few years earlier.

I am getting a litle mixed up.

Did he not leave in his 4th season.

 

[TOLBINY]

Yeah, and that had nothing to do with his age and everything to do with his approach to football - you seem to be about the only poster fixated on how old Ange is.

Redknapp was in his mid-60s with us, and played some of the most enjoyable football we'd seen for years, AVB was in his mid-30s and plenty hated his risk-averse sideways passing game.

My 'fixation' is on achivements and appointments relative to age. You know like you would expect a striker who has played for 10 years to have a lot of goals on his record, and the better the league in which he scored those goals the more he would be rated.

 

[funkycoldmedina]

My 'fixation' is on achivements and appointments relative to age. You know like you would expect a striker who has played for 10 years to have a lot of goals on his record, and the better the league in which he scored those goals the more he would be rated.

You're making these analogies but they're not relevant, he's an anomaly. He didn't have s decorated playing career, retired relatively early but has honed in an ability to build squads and bring success. You could say he has a transferable blueprint and nothing he's done so far is any different to what he's done previously.
Generally European clubs can be quite insular and traditional in who they appoint but he was on the radar of the City group, who have a better finger on the pulse than most (they recommended him to Celtic).

 

[easley91]

My 'fixation' is on achivements and appointments relative to age. You know like you would expect a striker who has played for 10 years to have a lot of goals on his record, and the better the league in which he scored those goals the more he would be rated.

He has gone up levels though, just not at the rate you want him to have done. If he was managing in Europe I could see your point, but he was in Asia. His working up the football ladder was always going to take longer because of his background and where he was geographically. The vast majority of European based clubs would not have taken a punt on him because of the reasons you state. If he isn't given the chance then how can he succeed at this level? Celtic gave him that chance, he got them a treble. Now we have given him a chance and we have to give him time and backing. He may succeed. He may not. But unless someone is willing to give him, or whoever, that opportunity how can we know?

 

[Styopa]

My 'fixation' is on achivements and appointments relative to age. You know like you would expect a striker who has played for 10 years to have a lot of goals on his record, and the better the league in which he scored those goals the more he would be rated.

I think it’s a bit different though because football players are hampered by physical limitations. They have a small window where they can be expected to operate at their peak. With football coaches, the window is much bigger. You get guys working wonders in their late 30s all the way up to someone like Ancelotti managing the biggest club in the world in his mid 60s.

It’s already been acknowledged that Ange was a slow starter in terms of landing a top European job - but that has a lot to do with the fact he never played in Europe. So his trajectory was different. He was unlikely to ever be given a top job in Europe based on his playing career but he worked his way towards being given the opportunity by Celtic. And he did a great job there.

Now it looks like he’s about to have a very solid first season in the Premier League. And he still has time to grow. He’s still three years younger than Redknapp was when we appointed him, and that went ok. In six years time Ange will be the same age as Ancelotti is now. He’s not past it yet!

 

[Misfit]

I am getting a litle mixed up.

Did he not leave in his 4th season.

I've just had a look. Yeah, seems like you're. 18,19, 20 and left in 21.

Man, a right stinker in-between 19 and 21 when they challenged for the title again, wasn't it?

Edit: Their attack didn't fall off but the goals against ballooned again in 20. Mildly concerning, not going to lie.

 

[Misfit]

Found this about that season, excuses or otherwise, from the horse's mouth at least, @rossdapep

Postecoglou feels Klopp's Liverpool pain as high-octane Yokohama F.Marinos look to bounce back after COVID-19 chaos

Yokohama F.Marinos manager Ange Postecoglou spoke to Stats Perform News ahead of the 2021 J.League season.

www.fotmob.com

 

[rossdapep]

I've just had a look. Yeah, seems like you're. 18,19, 20 and left in 21.

Man, a right stinker in-between 19 and 21 when they challenged for the title again, wasn't it?

Edit: Their attack didn't fall off but the goals against ballooned again in 20. Mildly concerning, not going to lie.

Perhaps he lost key players? And didn't replace?

Positively though they recovered in his last season and were second when he left for Celtic.

Klopp, Amorim - these coaches do seem to have a difficult period after a title win.

Could be balancing energy, key players leaving or passing their peak

 

[the yid]

This might have been suggested already as I can't be arsed to read all these pages.

To me the system needs some tweaks. When Poch used to push with FBs up high Dier would drop in to make a 3 at the back. We currently don't have a DM good enough to play this role but this is something we should definitely look at doing 2 FBs 2 8s and 3 Forwards pushing forward is enough so the 6 can drop in to protect from Counterattacks.

Ange never uses a proper striker but a Son type. This doesn't work in the premier league you need someone able to hold the ball up and someone big in the box.

Desperately need a quality LW. I think we need LW ST DM with LB RB AM cover.

I don't think it's far off clicking but we need the big man to see it.

 

[C1w8]

I don't know for certain he was offered a new contract and if he was I don't know the terms - all I know for certain is that he asked for time and patience in a recorded press conference. I agree he is hardly likely to say he can't wait to go, but he didn't have to mention time and patience either if he wanted to leave. However, if he DID want to leave, here is my question;

Why would a proven winner on £15M a year want to leave?

You may well come up with a lot of plausible reasons - but his health issues aside (in which case why not just announce he is leaving on health grounds?) the reasons I have thought of reflect more on us as a club than they do Conte. So that's why I have posed this question previously on SC so that others might proffer something I have not considered.

His contract had what, maybe three months left on it roughly from the time he left., not exactly a multi year 15mil p/a deal he was leaving by the time he did.

We get that you think Conte was hard done by/wasnt treated fairly compared to Ange but lining up all these "facts" , which still includes your bias in interpreting them, does not make it true, others obviously see it differently and for the most part now its long enough ago that most people don't actually care.

We've moved forward as a club since that last season Conte was with us and thats the most important thing, and what i'm happy to get behind and hopefully continues.

 

[Snarfalicious]

We could lose the rest of our matches this season and I’d still be fully aboard the Ange Train.

 

[Whazam]

He has gone up levels though, just not at the rate you want him to have done. If he was managing in Europe I could see your point, but he was in Asia. His working up the football ladder was always going to take longer because of his background and where he was geographically. The vast majority of European based clubs would not have taken a punt on him because of the reasons you state. If he isn't given the chance then how can he succeed at this level? Celtic gave him that chance, he got them a treble. Now we have given him a chance and we have to give him time and backing. He may succeed. He may not. But unless someone is willing to give him, or whoever, that opportunity how can we know?

Can't fathom how this can be so hard to understand. And even used as an argument against him.