Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

[Mr Pink]

We didn’t lose yesterday because of Ange's style of football tactics, and we didn’t lose/get thumped because they have better players than us - like Fulham, they dont.

We lost because some of our better players like Bissouma and Maddison are not playing to anything like their potential and because VDV who has had an outstanding first season made two uncharacteristically bad errors in a two minute spell.

Players lose form, players make mistakes. That’s why you have big squads.

But what is unacceptable is that the other main reason we lost is that they physically outfought us to every loose ball and were first to every loose ball. They showed balls and grit and fight and we were timid.

I said after the Fulham game, that Ange would have made his mark at this club when results like yesterday and Fulham are as rare as a comet rather than sadly predictable.

We lost because we were completely out worked all over the pitch.

They wanted it way more

 

[Timbo Tottenham]

How many project managers have had success in the Prem? Sir Alex, Klopp, Arteta are often cited as examples of why we should be patient with Ange, give him two or three seasons (which by the way I have posted he should get as long as we are not in freefall and at risk of relegation) but for the life of me I cannot understand why the same did not apply when it comes to Conte. Yes the football wasn't great at times, it hasn't always been as good as some have made out under Ange, so if you are going for a longer term project why not stick with a man who knows what it takes to win the Prem? Conte asked for time and patience a few days before his last game - does that sound like a bloke who doesn't want to be here or does it sound like a bloke who recognises this is a longer term project?

This post is not a dig at you or your views or a dig at Ange, but what is it in Ange's CV that leads people to believe he is a good choice as a longer term project manger for a club that is aiming to challenge for Prem titles? He doesn't seem to stay anywhere that long at club level, he is 58 years of age (older than Conte) with no previous experience at this level, let alone success?

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Is Conte your dad or something?

 

[Dov67]

We lost because we were completely out worked all over the pitch.

They wanted it way more

exactly !

 

[Locotoro]

Bissoma is a total hindrance in our system. He offers very little when we are proactive, let alone when we are on the back foot . We need to get Sarr in that role if Ange refuses to start Hojberg

Sarr is even less defensively aware than Bissouma. I don't know who works in that role but I think it's the only way we adapt long term to this issue of getting exposed.

To those thinking Ange won't adapt - you don't have a career of 20 years in football without learn you need to change from time to time. Ange will adapt but when the players haven't fully acclimated to his system yet I think his priorities are still to get the players to understand that first and then look at the gaps

 

[Sp3akerboxxx]

The numbers are kind off irrelevant, Klopp's team are easy to get at, like us, but ultimately he was proved right when given time.

His Liverpool team was distinctly more difficult to get at than ours has been this season.

 

[1882andallthat]

Ange and the coaching staff now have just under 2 weeks to get to work and find alternative strategies to the ones that leave us too exposed at the back and extremely vulnerable at corners before a stern test comes our way.

He needs to be studying lots of recent past games of theirs and ours at Hotspur Way, particularly their stengths and where we have been vulnerable and much work needs to before the the NLD. It won't be done watch it but they must do it pronto and in depth.

Work definitely needs to be done with the players to ensure concentration levels are tip to for the entire game. Lose disciple or concentration and fail to track back or leave things wide open and it could be horrendous watch.

Over to you Ange for the plotting and let's not leave anything to chance.

 

[Sp3akerboxxx]

Ange and the coaching staff now have just under 2 weeks to get to work and find alternative strategies to the ones that leave us too exposed at the back and extremely vulnerable at corners before a stern test comes our way.

He needs to be studying lots of recent past games of theirs and ours at Hotspur Way, particularly their stengths and where we have been vulnerable and much work needs to before the the NLD. It won't be done watch it but they must do it pronto and in depth.

Work definitely needs to be done with the players to ensure concentration levels are tip to for the entire game. Lose disciple or concentration and fail to track back or leave things wide open and it could be horrendous watch.

Over to you Ange for the plotting and let's not leave anything to chance.

I think he said that he didn't bother watching our last games vs Newcastle in a pre-match presser

 

[ComfortablyNumb]

Can't agree with that. Martinelli, Saka and Trossard are really outstanding players.

We have outstanding players, too. We just don’t use them as well.

 

[ComfortablyNumb]

Ange and the coaching staff now have just under 2 weeks to get to work and find alternative strategies to the ones that leave us too exposed at the back and extremely vulnerable at corners before a stern test comes our way.

He needs to be studying lots of recent past games of theirs and ours at Hotspur Way, particularly their stengths and where we have been vulnerable and much work needs to before the the NLD. It won't be done watch it but they must do it pronto and in depth.

Work definitely needs to be done with the players to ensure concentration levels are tip to for the entire game. Lose disciple or concentration and fail to track back or leave things wide open and it could be horrendous watch.

Over to you Ange for the plotting and let's not leave anything to chance.

That all sounds a bit plan b’ish. So not going to happen. If we want to play a different style of football then we need a different coach.

 

[Trent Crimm]

Sarr is even less defensively aware than Bissouma. I don't know who works in that role but I think it's the only way we adapt long term to this issue of getting exposed.

To those thinking Ange won't adapt - you don't have a career of 20 years in football without learn you need to change from time to time. Ange will adapt but when the players haven't fully acclimated to his system yet I think his priorities are still to get the players to understand that first and then look at the gaps

He’s literally said he’s never / not going to change. It’s also totally poss to have a 20 year + career in football and not learn. Depends what level you at and what league you in. Lower leagues are full of these types

 

[joey55]

How many coaches do we have to go through before fans even start to consider that the role might be massively over valued? It's an idea that seems to really rub people up the wrong way, as I suppose it means their hobby, which they are extremely passionate about, is a bit of a fantasy. Tactical analysis etc is a key part of being a fan and to dismiss the value of the role which is responsible for this part of the fan experience takes something away from the enjoyment. But why are football fans any different to people who invest in stocks and that's a much bigger industry with a far greater analyitcal role? Yet since the inception of index funds, it's become generally accepted that fund managers are, by and large, next to useless. Why are football fans so resistent to accepting the massive limitations of the head coach role?

A simple way of looking at it could be to ask yourself if, despite all the mountains of seemingly robust analysis, with sound reasoning, explaining why Poch made us so much better, you really believe he made us better than Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool and Man City, or did his reign conincide with these previously almost insurmountable jugernauts, completely going off the rails?

For years prior to Poch the only way to get into the top 4 was if one the "Sky 4" had a rubbish season for whatever reason. But during Poch's reign we saw unpresitented failures among several of those clubs at the same time. When we finished 3rd under Poch in 2015/16 we saw Man Utd finish outside of the top 4 for the first time in the Prem era! That had zero to do with Poch's coaching and tactics. Liverpool finished 8th on 60 points! Again, this had absolutely nothing to do with Poch. Chelsea went from being the champions the previous season, so finishing 10th on 50 points! Once again, this wasn't because of Poch! Yet these factors, which are massively important to our success that season were completely and utterly absent from the analysis which went to inform us of why we were so succesful that season. It's because the robust analysis that was suported by why we were seeing with our own eyes (cognitive bias) was absoute junk!

It's also totally ingored that during his first season in charge, when he was taking training every day and doing the tactics for each of our games, he actually was slightly less successful that Tim Sherwood was during his 26 games in charge. Have you not heard Tim Sherwood speak?

Why when a coach is succesful do we not focus on the other factors, which are miles more important, such as player recruitment and the failings of rivals? And conversely when we are failing why do we persist with blaming the coach?

 

[rossdapep]

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Manager doesn't have a plan B, too stubborn, etc etc. Interesting.

That would be legitimate criticism had Klopp not

Got to 3 CL finals.
Won the CL
Won the PL
Won the League Cup twice
Had Won the PL twice more but not for City.
Been top all season and in all comps until the latter weeks.
Had a lot of injuries to contend with this seasin.

Yes Klopp is uncompromising but if he has Pep's budget and control over all matters, his system wins out most of the time.

Pep couldn't win the CL and kept crashing out to poorer opposition before last year.

Was he stubborn too?

 

[Legacy]

He needs to stop having both full backs constantly occupying those inverted attacking positions at the same time. Feels like between them, Udogie and Porro have barely contributed anything meaningful to our attack at all in the last few months. They're just adding to the overcrowding in the final third and leaving gaping holes for opponents to exploit with a simple long ball. Just have one join the attack at a time and have the other hold back a bit to become a back three with the centre backs to provide a bit more support defending counter attacks.

 

[jackson]

In order to stick with the style of tactics we're going to need to be better attacking, take the early chances to open the game up or have the ability to pick our way through the low block to create something and score.

Currently teams are happy to give us enough rope to hang ourselves with as they know we will give up at least 2-3 golden opportunities every game just by trying to play our football and struggle to score when they sit back.

After the first ten of games, 'lesser' teams stopped pressing us high up which we were cutting through, now they let us have it and won't be drawn knowing there's no space to play which means our line is higher and higher and easy to exploit on the counter.

 

[Trix]

Liverpool pressed so well that teams never had time to pick a pass over the top, but then Henderson et al dropped off one season and teams started getting time in midfield to start picking passes over the top (there was a 7 something against Villa and I remember the analysis focussed how much time Villa's CM's had).
I think a very mobile high quality DM, fox in the box striker who keeps their defenders occupied and can hold the ball under pressure and maybe a Gallagher type player for the really intense games

Both ourselves and pool play a high line but our shape out of possession is different. Our full backs often have too much ground to make up as opposed to theirs who just have to get up and back.

Hope I'm wrong but I've been on this train of thought for months and nothing we are doing now, months on, is changing my mind on this.

Unless we look for a RCB with the pace VDV has, I feel he is left with too much to do on his own.

 

[Dannyspur]

Another week watching Maddison struggle and Ange bringing on an out of form Kulu. For the life of me I don’t get his confidence in these two and his reluctance to give GLC any meaningful minutes. He looks like our only midfielder that has the ability to see passes and move the ball quickly and accurately, that front three of ours need quicker releases not the laboured build up we’re seeing. Ange talks about bravery but his team selections can be a bit safe and predictable. Time Madds Biss, and Kulu got the real message that what they’re serving up isn’t good enough, and that means bench time.

To be fair to Kulu, he looked better in the short time he was on than he has all season.

 

[gavspur]

Yeah, I didn’t watch the game yesterday as I was working, and I haven’t bothered with the highlights. If we need a 6 to sit, split the CB’s when in possession, sniff out opposition counters, and also have a a good range of passing, then why have we never given Skipp a chance there? I mean, that is his natural game and his favoured position. Hojbjerg has too many clangers in him when under pressure, although his work rate and professionalism is to be applauded. So yeah, I’d give Skipp a go at the 6 role for a few games.

Skipp at 6
Change up the set piece coaches
Swap out underperforming players (Madders, Werner etc)
Try and get some rhythm back, I think we’re way too predictable.

 

[Styopa]

His Liverpool team was distinctly more difficult to get at than ours has been this season.

Maybe but they also had some poor results and were defensively exposed.

For example, They lost 3-0 to Watford, and 3-1 to Swansea. They narrowly beat Norwich 5-4. They lost to Southampton 3-2. They drew at home 2-2 with Sunderland. They drew 3-3 at home to Arsenal. They drew 2-2 at home to West Brom. They lost 2-1 at home to Crystal Palace.

Those aren’t a set of a results of a team that are distinctly hard to get at imo.

 

[RuskyM]

That would be legitimate criticism had Klopp not

Got to 3 CL finals.
Won the CL
Won the PL
Won the League Cup twice
Had Won the PL twice more but not for City.
Been top all season and in all comps until the latter weeks.
Had a lot of injuries to contend with this seasin.

Yes Klopp is uncompromising but if he has Pep's budget and control over all matters, his system wins out most of the time.

Pep couldn't win the CL and kept crashing out to poorer opposition before last year.

Was he stubborn too?

Yeah. Good managers are. Whilst adaptation is an important skill, you need to have underlying principles and disciplines. Otherwise, you become Erik ten Hag's Manchester United.

 

[Sp3akerboxxx]

Maybe but they also had some poor results and were defensively exposed.

For example, They lost 3-0 to Watford, and 3-1 to Swansea. They narrowly beat Norwich 5-4. They lost to Southampton 3-2. They drew at home 2-2 with Sunderland. They drew 3-3 at home to Arsenal. They drew 2-2 at home to West Brom. They lost 2-1 at home to Crystal Palace.

Those aren’t a set of a results of a team that are distinctly hard to get at imo.

Wrong season mate.

That was the season where he joined in mid October.

In his first full season 16/17 they beat arsenal 4-3 and 3-1, beat Watford 6-1 and 1-0, didn't play Norwich because they got relegated. Southampton failed to score against them that season.

They didn't lose a a PL game by more than 2 goals in his first full season.