Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

[muppetman]

So at the start of the season then what's the reasoning? We lost to Ipswich with a full squad outside of VDV.

We lost to Palace with a full squad, outside of Son missing but everyone wanted Moore to be playing at that stage anyway and he did. Brighton capitulation? Bournemouth away, Fulham last week. The list goes on. It can't just be down to injuries all the time.

Yes, we've lost some games that we shouldn't have - like every other team except possibly Liverpool?

I'm not pretending things are good or that I've enjoyed the season hugely. I just think the injuries should count for more, but totally understand why many have had enough and want a reset.

 

[Dunc2610]

Is it? I get the move from coaching The Dog and Duck to professional football. But is the PL so different that his experience in Australia, Japan and Scotland are dismissed? Yes, he'll be up against better players, but then will also have better players to compensate? Would he be getting the same comments if he'd come from Belgium, Holland or Portugal?

I think the fundamentals of coaching remain largely the same - motivating your players, getting across what you expect them to do and having a solid plan to score more than the opposition - why is this so different in the PL?

Not dismissable at all, not saying that, just saying the step is different. Like, its all driving a car, but the step from driving a 1.0 Fiesta to a Porsche 911 Turbo, is different from going from a BMW M3 to a 911! Its a different animal.

 

[dontcallme]

I'm guessing the point he made was someone took a punt on him in the top flight, Mainz I'm guessing from your post, which I guess is true, like we've take a punt on Ange, but as you say, the step from Scotland to Prem is, I suspect, bigger than say, Southampton to Spurs?

Mainz is a small club in the Bundesliga. On doing well there he got a step up to a better Bundesliga.

On achieving at the top there and in Europe he showed he was the level for a good Prem club and now had the experience too.

Not unlike smaller Prem clubs taking a risk on a manager taking a step up. The ones that do very well have then gained the experience and shown they could do a job at a bigger Prem.

None of the poster’s points understand or acknowledge any of that.

 

[muppetman]

Not dismissable at all, not saying that, just saying the step is different. Like, its all driving a car, but the step from driving a 1.0 Fiesta to a Porsche 911 Turbo, is different from going from a BMW M3 to a 911! Its a different animal.

Sorry, wasn't saying that you were dismissing it, just that it is a point that I've seen made several times and I'm not sure I agree with.

 

[SpursSteveLincs]

Mainz is a small club in the Bundesliga. On doing well there he got a step up to a better Bundesliga.

On achieving at the top there and in Europe he showed he was the level for a good Prem club and now had the experience too.

Not unlike smaller Prem clubs taking a risk on a manager taking a step up. The ones that do very well have then gained the experience and shown they could do a job at a bigger Prem.

None of the poster’s points understand or acknowledge any of that.

That's exactly my point and not what your original post said.

 

[dontcallme]

Is it? I get the move from coaching The Dog and Duck to professional football. But is the PL so different that his experience in Australia, Japan and Scotland are dismissed? Yes, he'll be up against better players, but then will also have better players to compensate? Would he be getting the same comments if he'd come from Belgium, Holland or Portugal?

I think the fundamentals of coaching remain largely the same - motivating your players, getting across what you expect them to do and having a solid plan to score more than the opposition - why is this so different in the PL?

Ange’s job isn’t just about coaching though.

It’s dealing with the media, the politics of a big club, the managing of the coaching staff.

If he was simply a coach, I think everyone would be fine with it but his job is much bigger than that.

And I believe managing what should be a top 6 Prem club is very different to Japan, Scotland and Australia.

It doesn’t mean that he couldn’t have succeeded but maybe this has been too much of a step up.

 

[spurs mental]

Yes, we've lost some games that we shouldn't have - like every other team except possibly Liverpool?

I'm not pretending things are good or that I've enjoyed the season hugely. I just think the injuries should count for more, but totally understand why many have had enough and want a reset.

Some games puts it mildly. We've lost 15 in the PL so far this season. On course for our worst ever season in a long long time.

The injuries do count but when you have the volume we've had, and continue to watch the same thing unfold in front of your eyes every single week without the manager even look willing to try and do something different it's incredibly frustrating, and frankly, it's fucking shit from him to allow us to continue conceding similar goals every week and lose games.

 

[hellava_tough]

Is it? I get the move from coaching The Dog and Duck to professional football. But is the PL so different that his experience in Australia, Japan and Scotland are dismissed? Yes, he'll be up against better players, but then will also have better players to compensate? Would he be getting the same comments if he'd come from Belgium, Holland or Portugal?

I think the fundamentals of coaching remain largely the same - motivating your players, getting across what you expect them to do and having a solid plan to score more than the opposition - why is this so different in the PL?

I suspect the problem relates to pressure and how that affects the ebb and flow of the game.

Ange's system subjects his players to more undue pressure; pressure which isn't nearly as bad in the lower leagues he's managed over the years.

Extra pressure creates more chances for the opposition in potentially key moments of the game.

I could elaborate more, but I'm rushing with this message

 

[mattspur1]

Some games puts it mildly. We've lost 15 in the PL so far this season. On course for our worst ever season in a long long time.

The injuries do count but when you have the volume we've had, and continue to watch the same thing unfold in front of your eyes every single week without the manager even look willing to try and do something different it's incredibly frustrating, and frankly, it's fucking shit from him to allow us to continue conceding similar goals every week and lose games.

Absolutley spot on.

 

[E17yid]

I just don't understand this school of thought. If we follow that through we would never have bought Bergvall, Gray, Bale and a very long list of players would never be bought as they didn't have the required experience at top level.

To illustrate further, none of the current top level managers in the world had experience at top flight before they were actually given a job in the top flight. What they did for the most part was show a level of skill and success at various levels which convinced people to take a chance on them and give them a top job. From there they succeeded. Others are given a job based on their reputation. Lampard for example, who has now dropped down the ranks to develop his managerial skills.

What they all have in common though is that not 1 of them had top level managerial experience before being given their 1st job at the top level.

It’s not just the standard of leagues he’s managed in it’s the time he’s spent there. He’s spent almost 30 years managing at that level in pony leagues. Yes, clubs sign players from lower leagues but they do it when they’re young. You don’t go signing 30 year old players from league 2 do you. There’s a reason why no club of our size goes scouting Australia and Japan looking for managers that have only managed at that level for several decades.

I’ve said before, imo the next step up for him should’ve been a championship club or maybe a lower league prem club before taking a job like Spurs. Or rather, being offered a job like Spurs.

 

[Albertbarich]

Some games puts it mildly. We've lost 15 in the PL so far this season. On course for our worst ever season in a long long time.

The injuries do count but when you have the volume we've had, and continue to watch the same thing unfold in front of your eyes every single week without the manager even look willing to try and do something different it's incredibly frustrating, and frankly, it's fucking shit from him to allow us to continue conceding similar goals every week and lose games.

I think that’s a bit unfair. He has tried to change it. The press was calmed down, the formation went from a 433 to a 4231, he tried to disastrous results at Everton to go with a back 3, the full backs didn’t invert as much and he is now rotating to the point of overkill.

The issue has been everything he has tried hasn’t worked, his weakness’ have been accentuated and his system is accentuating the player’s weaknesses aswell.

I think his race is run . If you were to ask me what I THINK has happened then I’d say I suspect he has totally underestimated the intensity and tactical detail of the premier league. He has a coaching that aren’t up to it and he has had some awful luck to go along with it.

But let’s be fair to him. The squad in the summer was never going to coo with 4 competitions, they didn’t improve the first team apart from Solanke and he has also been a great representative of our football club. Levy is why we aren’t challenging for honours, but Ange is why we’re 14th of whatever. I think that’s the fairest way I can put it.

 

[spursfan77]

In all his time here:

Conceded in 81% of league games
won 45% PL matches
Lost 40% PL matches

This season:

Conceded in 79% of league games
won 34% PL matches
Lost 52% PL matches

Indefensible

https://www.playmakerstats.com/manager/ange-postecoglou/2243/results?grp=1&ond=&compet_id_jogos=4&epoca_id=153&epoca_fim_id=154&menu=results&type=season

 

[SpursSteveLincs]

It’s not just the standard of leagues he’s managed in it’s the time he’s spent there. He’s spent almost 30 years managing at that level in pony leagues. Yes, clubs sign players from lower leagues but they do it when they’re young. You don’t go signing 30 year old players from league 2 do you. There’s a reason why no club of our size goes scouting Australia and Japan looking for managers that have only managed at that level for several decades.

I’ve said before, imo the next step up for him should’ve been a championship club or maybe a lower league prem club before taking a job like Spurs. Or rather, being offered a job like Spurs.

I don't disagree, my point wasn't about Ange specifically which may be getting lost. It was about only taking managers who have top level experience as nobody would ever get a chance if that were the case.

I think it's time for a change personally I just wouldn't rule out talented managers who don't yet have top flight experience from any shortlist if they have had success and their current level.

McKenna is an interesting one, I think people are judging him based on them going down this year and forgetting that they won back to back promotions. The step from league 1 to Premier league is vast so it's hardly a surprise that they struggled tbh. Going from League 2 to Championship would have been tough enough, Premier league is miles harder

 

[muppetman]

Ange’s job isn’t just about coaching though.

It’s dealing with the media, the politics of a big club, the managing of the coaching staff.

If he was simply a coach, I think everyone would be fine with it but his job is much bigger than that.

And I believe managing what should be a top 6 Prem club is very different to Japan, Scotland and Australia.

It doesn’t mean that he couldn’t have succeeded but maybe this has been too much of a step up.

Fair enough, I disagree and think his handling of the media has been fine - who knows about internal stuff? But it's cool to disagree.

 

[dontcallme]

Fair enough, I disagree and think his handling of the media has been fine - who knows about internal stuff? But it's cool to disagree.

I’ve been fine with his media handling.

I was just making the point that the head coach job is more nuanced at a bigger club.

Doesn’t mean he can’t do it.

 

[spurs mental]

I think that’s a bit unfair. He has tried to change it. The press was calmed down, the formation went from a 433 to a 4231, he tried to disastrous results at Everton to go with a back 3, the full backs didn’t invert as much and he is now rotating to the point of overkill.

The issue has been everything he has tried hasn’t worked, his weakness’ have been accentuated and his system is accentuating the player’s weaknesses aswell.

I think his race is run . If you were to ask me what I THINK has happened then I’d say I suspect he has totally underestimated the intensity and tactical detail of the premier league. He has a coaching that aren’t up to it and he has had some awful luck to go along with it.

But let’s be fair to him. The squad in the summer was never going to coo with 4 competitions, they didn’t improve the first team apart from Solanke and he has also been a great representative of our football club. Levy is why we aren’t challenging for honours, but Ange is why we’re 14th of whatever. I think that’s the fairest way I can put it.

I don't think it's unfair because I've never seen him make enough tweaks in game to honestly make a difference in time.

Take the Brighton game for example. We were cruising at 2 up. Brighton came out flying and you could see their first goal coming. They scored. No changes. They scored again, and then they scored their third. No changes for nearly 15 minutes after their 3rd goal

As you mention the Everton game, he tried some weird formation but no tweaks to how we played. We were 2 down in half an hour getting battered by fucking Everton. There was an injury break around the 40 minute mark, Moyes has his players around him, ours were stood hands on hips staring into space and Ange stood on the other side of the pitch. Everton scored again before HT

He does absolutely nothing in game to change the flow, and then we hear the "we weren't at our levels" excuse. But it's down to him we aren't at the levels when we walk out on to the pitch because he does not give the players a chance to compete with the way we're set up. Regardless of him tweaking at the formation, the mistakes continue to happen in the same way. Long diagonal ball over our defence with a full back miles up and midfield nowhere to be seen.

 

[GioW]

Only pop in here now incase there's any talk of who his successor should be.

Writings on the wall with him leaving and pretty much everything that needs to be said in here has been.

 

[Dundalk_Spur]

In my opinion, and its just my opinion the problem is three fold.

1. The injuries - self explanatory
2. The players inability to play the style and without fear. Its trying to reprogramme 20 odd robots from years of being coached to minimise risk. This leads to playing with less conviction which leads to poor choices in passing etc especially in our own half. Add to this some players clearly not willing to put in the effort to play and run both ways
3. Ange is welded to his ethos, its his way or no way. It's worked in weaker leagues where the issues in point 2 are less likely to be punished, but in the PL an error is more likely to be punished.

We hear the players say they are behind him etc, but that conviction has to be shown on the pitch for 90+ minutes every game.

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

Fuck me are people really going to embark on yet another round of what's wrong with and why Ange should go?

haha

 

[sundanceyid10]

Stuck between Ange staying or another Levy reset, both pretty grim options. Both look pretty clueless as well. How lucky we all are as fans right now.