Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

[Nick-TopSpursMan]

Genuine question, what signs of "evolution in his coaching: has Iraola shown?

How do you think fans will take constantly having less possession than the opposition? How can you be so confident that he will successfully evolve his approach to deal with injuries/fatigue when he has never had to deal with being in a European comp before, especially when their injuries haven't been great without it. They have only played 4 two game weeks and a total of 27 games. For context, we have played 16 two game weeks and 39 games total.

I can’t be certain he will learn, nothing is certain with managers.

From what I’ve seen and heard from him though he seems to be very intelligent and open to evolution.

The possession side is the biggest area he has to improve imo. I do think though that taking a step up in terms of club stature and dealing with higher quality technical players could lead to him naturally having more possession. He has Tyler Adams and Ryan Christie in midfield, with us he’d have Bergvall, Gray etc. Naturally much better technical players with better passing.

He would also find more teams sit back against us as we are a bigger club. So he’d naturally have to evolve his approach imo. Poch did the same. With Southampton he was averaging just under 50% possession but when he moved to us that immediately jumped to 55% and then up to around 60%.

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

What’s a ‘rest defence shape’?

I can’t keep up with all these new phrases.

God knows what it'll be next

 

[Nick-TopSpursMan]

I think that, especially when we were running at full tilt and our stats (despite a couple of shit results) were pretty excellent in terms of goals scored, goals conceded, chances created etc that these deficiencies in transition are priced in. It would take a pretty strong argument to convince me at if we didn't have an on form top 3 that we wouldn't have been in a pretty excellent situation pre-injuries and the stats bore it out regardless of how we leave ourselves at the back. We could all see how wasteful and inefficient we were up top.

We concede a lot of threat playing the way that we do, but it is priced in and clearly that is the strategy. You are always sacrificing somewhere and this is our sacrifice. For me the majority of game-killers for me have come from how needles some of the shit passes are causing the turnover are, whether that's from playing tired players who are making poor decisions and/or players not tired but prone to some wasteful passing and have been the real cost in turning over possession. I don't think it's Ange beyond expecting maybe too much of players that aren't yet up to itt and sticking with it too long. We're designed to be high up, but there is little excuse beyond tiredness/quality for some of the turnovers we make. We've seen some absolutely dreadful and needless stuff putting us under pressure that doesn't fall at all under the "be brave and I don't give a shit" ethos. They're just bad passes in rotating the ball about, not trying to do anything of note.

I really do think that with another summer of squad churn that we will be in a really good place whether under Ange or not. If we need players to stop losing the ball wastefully then we need to critically look at some of the guys doing it on the regular and work out how to rectify it one way or another. Bissouma, Sarr, Udogie, Porro, Son, Johnson have all been very guilty of this at times for probably varying reasons, just making poor decisions or passing horribly even at very short distances.

I agree that if we were more effective in attack we’d do a lot better under Ange but his fatal flaw would still remain.

We would still be too easy to cut open when we lose the ball though.

Also one of the reasons we’ve had so manny injury issues and fatigue is because of how much space our defenders constantly have to run back and forth in to defend. No wonder we’ve had Udogie, VdV, Romero and Davies all go down with significant muscle injuries.

 

[Nick-TopSpursMan]

What’s a ‘rest defence shape’?

I can’t keep up with all these new phrases.

Rest defence is the shape and numbers you use at the back when you are in possession.

Majority of teams build with a 3-2 shape. This could comprise of 2 CBs and a fullback in the 3, with 2 midfielders in the 2. Or it could be 2 CBs and a DM in the 3 (Ala Poch) with 2 midfielders ahead etc.

Ange builds in a 2-3 which is more attacking but it really becomes 2-1 because both fullbacks push in to attack as well as the CMs. 2-1 is very extreme.

Commonly used term in coaching and analysis.

 

[Beni]

I get many don't want him as our manager long term, fine, but can we refrain from calling our own manager who has done nothing but give his all for our club and never say a word out of place 'a clown'. Let's not stoop to Arsenal/Chelsea levels of shit online discourse please.

Not saying you’re wrong, as I totally agree we shouldn’t be lowering ourselves in calling anyone names like clown etc to make a point.
I did however find it funny that in your very next post, you’re calling someone a “bellend” and saying they’re talking bollocks just because you don’t agree with their view.

 

[TOLBINY]

I can’t be certain he will learn, nothing is certain with managers.

From what I’ve seen and heard from him though he seems to be very intelligent and open to evolution.

The possession side is the biggest area he has to improve imo. I do think though that taking a step up in terms of club stature and dealing with higher quality technical players could lead to him naturally having more possession. He has Tyler Adams and Ryan Christie in midfield, with us he’d have Bergvall, Gray etc. Naturally much better technical players with better passing.

He would also find more teams sit back against us as we are a bigger club. So he’d naturally have to evolve his approach imo. Poch did the same. With Southampton he was averaging just under 50% possession but when he moved to us that immediately jumped to 55% and then up to around 60%.

This article (LINK) suggests that Pochettino's Southampton side had the highest possession stats in the Prem at 58.6% in his only full season with them (2013-14). I have been unable to find any stats from his appointment at Southampton (18th Jan 2013) to the end of that season - it could be that possession in those 4 months was really low, taking his avergae during his tenure there to just under 50% as you say. But he arrived at Tottenham as a coach who was used to his team having more of the ball than the opposition.

 

[SA_Spurs]

I guess we have different interpretations of the same events.

Ange has failed and brought us to the lowest league position for a while. I don't see anything special worth hanging onto.

yes, Conte failed, Mou failed, Nuno failed, Poch failed, Mason failed, Redknapp failed ...what's your point? None of those other guys were worth hanging onto either & we didn't. I can bet you the next one that comes in will fail too....because none of these guys are ever setup for success at spurs

 

[Nick-TopSpursMan]

This article (LINK) suggests that Pochettino's Southampton side had the highest possession stats in the Prem at 58.6% in his only full season with them (2013-14). I have been unable to find any stats from his appointment at Southampton (18th Jan 2013) to the end of that season - it could be that possession in those 4 months was really low, taking his avergae during his tenure there to just under 50% as you say. But he arrived at Tottenham as a coach who was used to his team having more of the ball than the opposition.

Interesting, the stat I saw suggested they had 49.7% possession. Looking at Whoscored though it seems like the data for that season may be incomplete.

Something from the link you shared stands out though. These 4 key things in particular could literally be describing Iraola. They are hallmarks of his Bournemouth team:

• A high pressing game – He looks to win the ball as soon as possible, as high up the field as possible. Southampton made the third most tackles last season and were fourth for number of fouls committed, despite having so much possession. Pochettino expects all his players to work hard to pressurise the opposition and create key turnovers.
• Moving the ball forward quickly in transition – Pochettino looks to get the ball forward quickly and vertically when his team wins possession. Southampton played the second highest number of long balls last season, very unusual for a team with so much possession. They also were caught offside the third most times, another indication of how quickly they get bodies forward and how direct their passing can be.
• Not tiki-taka – Pochettino does not believe in possession for possession’s sake. He advocates a more pragmatic, more direct approach. Southampton may have topped the possession table but were only fifth for short passes – closer to Moyes’ United and Mourinho’s Chelsea, than to the more dogmatic Wenger. Pochettino’s team have lots of the ball but his style is very different from Barcelona’s tiki-taka.
• Direct approach – team pass success and possession are normally very strongly correlated. Strangely for a team with so much of the ball, Southampton were only ninth for pass success. This, along with the short pass statistics, hints at the more direct approach Pochettino favours and the quick, often one touch passing he encourages. They make fewer simple, short passes and more direct, risky ones.

 

[Oh Teddy Teddy]

What’s a ‘rest defence shape’?

I can’t keep up with all these new phrases.

how’s our field tilt looking these days

 

[Beni]

View attachment 151978
Look at us and look who is closest. If you think the pressing and intensity is the issue , Iraola isn’t solving that issue.

The sprints and intensity might be similar, but whatever system or approach Iraola is using is clearly managing the demands better than Ange’s. Even if Bournemouth have some injuries, it’s not affecting their performances the way it has with us.

Whether it’s rotations, training methods, or tactical structure, something in their setup is allowing them to maintain their level without the same drop-offs we’ve seen. It’s not just about how much you run, but how you manage it over a season.

That’s not to say I do have my doubts about Iraola.

@okc1992 not sure how you can disagree that factually Iraola is dealing with it better when all you have to do is look at the table.

 

[alamo]

I can't decide about Ange, but the recruitment and results certainly indicate a glaring issue somewhere within the footballing structure.

What I really can't get my head around is when looking at the table we have the same number of points as West Ham. Bad enough in itself I know, I know. However, our goal difference is a full +28 in comparison to theirs. What the actual fuck. I wouldn't even have thought that was conceivable outside of Football Manager.

 

[Dunc2610]

how’s our field tilt looking these days

Its tilting towards a resting bitch face at this rate!

 

[Beni]

I agree mate, I don’t believe rocket science is needed to explain why we went from pretty good pre-injuries to shit post injuries.

People can freely debate if the system is sustainable, or if it’s the source of the injuries or if luck plays a factor etc - and Christ knows this thread is full of those debates haha! But trying to find any other explanation for the root issue to our downturn in form is silly.

No he’s not lost the dressing room. No we’ve not been ‘figured out’. No it’s not the fullbacks positioning or the midfielders being pulled out and going missing. They’re of course factors that will need addressed going forward and likely would cost us some games across the season, but they’re not the root issue as to why we’re 14th. That is squarely at the door of fatigue.

So which is it? You’re saying full-backs and midfield positioning isn’t the issue, but then also admitting they’re factors that need addressing and have cost us games. Either they’re part of the issue or they’re not.

Fatigue is definitely a factor, but it’s not the root cause. The real issue starts with Levy. Ange’s tactics, injuries, fitness levels, player performances, and squad depth are all symptoms of deeper structural problems within the club. Fatigue doesn’t happen in isolation, it’s a result of how the squad has been built and managed over time.

 

[Johnny J]

So which is it? You’re saying full-backs and midfield positioning isn’t the issue, but then also admitting they’re factors that need addressing and have cost us games. Either they’re part of the issue or they’re not.

Fatigue is definitely a factor, but it’s not the root cause. The real issue starts with Levy. Ange’s tactics, injuries, fitness levels, player performances, and squad depth are all symptoms of deeper structural problems within the club. Fatigue doesn’t happen in isolation, it’s a result of how the squad has been built and managed over time.

Nailed it.

 

[mil1lion]

What’s a ‘rest defence shape’?

I can’t keep up with all these new phrases.

It's footballs answer to resting bitch face

 

[neogenisis]

It's footballs answer to resting bitch face

But is it a dry, moist or wet rest defence shape?

 

[chas vs dave]

Not sure mate, but if they’re any better than Ipswich, Leicester or Everton then we won’t get very far sadly.

I love your optimism, but the idea of this team under this manager, winning anything beyond half a football match at the moment seems so far detached from reality it’s nuts.

Havent we won 3 out of the last 5, or am i just making it up?

It find it completely bizarre how people are talking down our chances. The same ones are the first to moan and whinge when we lose.

 

[pal90]

Havent we won 3 out of the last 5, or am i just making it up?

It find it completely bizarre how people are talking down our chances. The same ones are the first to moan and whinge when we lose.

Only 2 of 5. Lost to Leicester, Pool and Villa.

 

[michaelj70]

Genuine question, what signs of "evolution in his coaching: has Iraola shown?

How do you think fans will take constantly having less possession than the opposition? How can you be so confident that he will successfully evolve his approach to deal with injuries/fatigue when he has never had to deal with being in a European comp before, especially when their injuries haven't been great without it. They have only played 4 two game weeks and a total of 27 games. For context, we have played 16 two game weeks and 39 games total.

I like Iraola BUT peeps thinking he will solve all our woes is very very optimistic/fanciful ??
His setup at Bournemouth so different including points mentioned by @spurs9
He loves the pretty simple, low pressure life on south coast.
Being in N London hotseat different kettle of fish
#stick

 

[TOLBINY]

Interesting, the stat I saw suggested they had 49.7% possession. Looking at Whoscored though it seems like the data for that season may be incomplete.

Something from the link you shared stands out though. These 4 key things in particular could literally be describing Iraola. They are hallmarks of his Bournemouth team:

• A high pressing game – He looks to win the ball as soon as possible, as high up the field as possible. Southampton made the third most tackles last season and were fourth for number of fouls committed, despite having so much possession. Pochettino expects all his players to work hard to pressurise the opposition and create key turnovers.
• Moving the ball forward quickly in transition – Pochettino looks to get the ball forward quickly and vertically when his team wins possession. Southampton played the second highest number of long balls last season, very unusual for a team with so much possession. They also were caught offside the third most times, another indication of how quickly they get bodies forward and how direct their passing can be.
• Not tiki-taka – Pochettino does not believe in possession for possession’s sake. He advocates a more pragmatic, more direct approach. Southampton may have topped the possession table but were only fifth for short passes – closer to Moyes’ United and Mourinho’s Chelsea, than to the more dogmatic Wenger. Pochettino’s team have lots of the ball but his style is very different from Barcelona’s tiki-taka.
• Direct approach – team pass success and possession are normally very strongly correlated. Strangely for a team with so much of the ball, Southampton were only ninth for pass success. This, along with the short pass statistics, hints at the more direct approach Pochettino favours and the quick, often one touch passing he encourages. They make fewer simple, short passes and more direct, risky ones.

To clarify, I provided the link as evidence of the possession stats which conflict with those in your original post, not as an endorsement of the opinions expressed in the article.