Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

[spurs9]

I didn't need to, it's fucking obvious

He says that the press started to decline before the majority of our injuries, so not fucking obvious.

 

[Albertbarich]

I genuinely believe we will be in exactly the same place 18 months after his appointment if we get Iraola.

His injury issues are similar to ours last season, I think if he had Europe to contend with, they would be as bad as ours. His press is high intensity like ours, his teams play erratic like we do yet have just an average of 46% possession and we don't know how he would cope v a low block, because he hasn't faced one.

Poch also has his issues, as I stated earlier and I doubt we would be much different when the nostalgia goes away.

Look at us and look who is closest. If you think the pressing and intensity is the issue , Iraola isn’t solving that issue.

 

[Johnny J]

View attachment 151978
Look at us and look who is closest. If you think the pressing and intensity is the issue , Iraola isn’t solving that issue.

Does this chart mean we won?

 

[mil1lion]

Why is Poch the man? What has he achieved since leaving us?

He's literally the mirror of us. We had those managers who achieved lots elsewhere and they failed here. Poch had success here and fell short at the big spenders with no structure. He's clearly exactly the type of manager who we need with how we operate. We're also the ideal club for him as we don't have politics going on and we don't just sign name players. It's crazy that we haven't gone back for another manager like that but also that he hasn't gone back to an underdog in club football. Like a couple too stubborn to see they're the perfect match.

 

[robotsonic]

Anyway we're getting off track in the thread haha, my core point was trying to find any other explanation for why our press has got worse other than fatigue due to injuries and depth issues feels like trying to blame the grip on your shoes as to why you've fallen over, when the whole road is covered in ice! People can speculate who caused the injuries of course, but they're clearly the major reason why our application and energy has fallen off!

I do think that there is too much wankery going on when trying to analyse the issues which to me are as simple as:

• We want to play an intense press
• Players have got injured, some maybe because they can't keep up with it, some maybe because injuries just happen anyway
• Now more or less the same 12-13 players with 1-2 changes have played every game, 2 per week, for 2-3 months+
• Players are overworked and keep breaking down despite a couple returning and so we have had to relent in the press
• We are decimated ad infinitum and can't recover due to the schedule
• End

It's not that complicated imo. We have been ravaged, for whatever the reason so of course we can't go full on all season. We couldn't even if we hadn't had so many injuries, just to avoid them.

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

He says that the press started to decline before the majority of our injuries, so not fucking obvious.

I think the actual answer as most would assume was obvious, not the spin he decided to put on it. Well, it was the first thing I thought of anyway, I mean it's obviously going to have had a big effect regardless

 

[snakehipsspurs]

I do think that there is too much wankery going on when trying to analyse the issues which to me are as simple as:

• We want to play an intense press
• Players have got injured, some maybe because they can't keep up with it, some maybe because injuries just happen anyway
• Now more or less the same 12-13 players with 1-2 changes have played every game, 2 per week, for 2-3 months+
• Players are overworked and keep breaking down despite a couple returning and so we have had to relent in the press
• We are decimated ad infinitum and can't recover due to the schedule
• End

It's not that complicated imo. We have been ravaged, for whatever the reason so of course we can't go full on all season. We couldn't even if we hadn't had so many injuries, just to avoid them.

I agree mate, I don’t believe rocket science is needed to explain why we went from pretty good pre-injuries to shit post injuries.

People can freely debate if the system is sustainable, or if it’s the source of the injuries or if luck plays a factor etc - and Christ knows this thread is full of those debates haha! But trying to find any other explanation for the root issue to our downturn in form is silly.

No he’s not lost the dressing room. No we’ve not been ‘figured out’. No it’s not the fullbacks positioning or the midfielders being pulled out and going missing. They’re of course factors that will need addressed going forward and likely would cost us some games across the season, but they’re not the root issue as to why we’re 14th. That is squarely at the door of fatigue.

 

[spurs9]

Just to play devils advocate again. He was pretty good with the academy in the early days (Mason, Kane, Bentaleb) and the players coming through then were good enough for where we were in the league...but once we got challenging, the academy players that came through were pretty average at best. KWP, maybe, but was he better than Walker and Trippier?

Edwards looked promising but he is now at Burnley and hasnt pulled up trees. I cant think of another player from that time that we can look back on and say he wasted an opportunity.

Paratichi saw the academy as in need of a fix because it wasnt producing players of the right standard. I think it is doing much better right now and any manager would be interested in whats coming through.

KWP wasn't up against Walker, it was Aurier and Trippier.

He got MOM first game of the season, then 1 x 8 minute sub appearance in the league, between his next start that wasn't until the last game of the season. There is no excuse for waiting 36 games to play a youngster after he just got MOM. He actually got MOM in his 2nd start, getting 2 assists as well, then didn't get another league start until the 19th game the next season, where he also got MOM and 3 assists. He played 1150 mins in all comps between the ages of 20 and 22, wasn't allowed to play for the U21s and wasn't allowed to go out on loan. Who knows how he would have turned out with decent game time at a crucial age.

Just to recap, 1st league game MOM, no start for 36 games, 2nd league game MOM & 2 assists, no league start for 18 games, MOM and 3 assists, no league start for 10 games. Its not like Trippier and Aurier were tearing it up in that time either.

It's not just that he didn't play the academy players, he wouldn't let them go out on loan (in case they learnt bad habits) and he wouldn't even let them play for the U21s, so their development didn't just stall, it basically stopped, so who knows who would have made it.

 

[spurs9]

I think the actual answer as most would assume was obvious, not the spin he decided to put on it. Well, it was the first thing I thought of anyway, I mean it's obviously going to have had a big effect regardless

Not if you understand that he isn't an analyst, he is a content creator and the best way to get the views and interactions (his job) is by saying something different than everyone else is saying.

 

[Nick-TopSpursMan]

View attachment 151978
Look at us and look who is closest. If you think the pressing and intensity is the issue , Iraola isn’t solving that issue.

2 significant differences with Iraola.

1. He generally uses a 3-2 rest defence shape for build up, at worst 3-1. This is in comparison to Ange, who goes with in theory a 2-3 shape but in reality it becomes a 2-1, which is why we are so open, even when we were able to press. Iraola’s structure just has more security to it.

2. Iraola is 42 years old and has already shown significant signs of evolution in his coaching. This leads me to believe there is a good chance he will actually learn from issues and adapt his ideas. For example learning to manage games better with passive possession to conserve energy.

 

[Nick-TopSpursMan]

Also meant to add that a lot of our problems with Ange haven’t come with our pressing till later in the season. That could be due to injuries and fatigue and fair enough.

But a huge amount of our problems under him have always come when we have the ball and lose it. That’s where his rest defence shape of 2-3 or 2-1 kills us and we get cut open. This continues to kill us every match. Iraola in comparison has the safer rest defence structure.

So while we may encounter issues with our pressing under Iraola, I think we’d be safer in possession when we lose the ball and I trust him more to find solutions and evolve his approach to deal with fatigue/injuries and more games.

 

[Ledley's Right Foot]

KWP wasn't up against Walker, it was Aurier and Trippier.

He got MOM first game of the season, then 1 x 8 minute sub appearance in the league, between his next start that wasn't until the last game of the season. There is no excuse for waiting 36 games to play a youngster after he just got MOM. He actually got MOM in his 2nd start, getting 2 assists as well, then didn't get another league start until the 19th game the next season, where he also got MOM and 3 assists. He played 1150 mins in all comps between the ages of 20 and 22, wasn't allowed to play for the U21s and wasn't allowed to go out on loan. Who knows how he would have turned out with decent game time at a crucial age.

Just to recap, 1st league game MOM, no start for 36 games, 2nd league game MOM & 2 assists, no league start for 18 games, MOM and 3 assists, no league start for 10 games. Its not like Trippier and Aurier were tearing it up in that time either.

It's not just that he didn't play the academy players, he wouldn't let them go out on loan (in case they learnt bad habits) and he wouldn't even let them play for the U21s, so their development didn't just stall, it basically stopped, so who knows who would have made it.

Thanks for that, useful to know. Im aware we are going off topic a bit here but i take your point. I didnt think he was better than Trippier but you jogged my memory re Aurier.

 

[robotsonic]

Also meant to add that a lot of our problems with Ange haven’t come with our pressing till later in the season. That could be due to injuries and fatigue and fair enough.

But a huge amount of our problems under him have always come when we have the ball and lose it. That’s where his rest defence shape of 2-3 or 2-1 kills us and we get cut open. This continues to kill us every match. Iraola in comparison has the safer rest defence structure.

So while we may encounter issues with our pressing under Iraola, I think we’d be safer in possession when we lose the ball and I trust him more to find solutions and evolve his approach to deal with fatigue/injuries and more games.

I think that, especially when we were running at full tilt and our stats (despite a couple of shit results) were pretty excellent in terms of goals scored, goals conceded, chances created etc that these deficiencies in transition are priced in. It would take a pretty strong argument to convince me at if we didn't have an on form top 3 that we wouldn't have been in a pretty excellent situation pre-injuries and the stats bore it out regardless of how we leave ourselves at the back. We could all see how wasteful and inefficient we were up top.

We concede a lot of threat playing the way that we do, but it is priced in and clearly that is the strategy. You are always sacrificing somewhere and this is our sacrifice. For me the majority of game-killers for me have come from how needles some of the shit passes are causing the turnover are, whether that's from playing tired players who are making poor decisions and/or players not tired but prone to some wasteful passing and have been the real cost in turning over possession. I don't think it's Ange beyond expecting maybe too much of players that aren't yet up to itt and sticking with it too long. We're designed to be high up, but there is little excuse beyond tiredness/quality for some of the turnovers we make. We've seen some absolutely dreadful and needless stuff putting us under pressure that doesn't fall at all under the "be brave and I don't give a shit" ethos. They're just bad passes in rotating the ball about, not trying to do anything of note.

I really do think that with another summer of squad churn that we will be in a really good place whether under Ange or not. If we need players to stop losing the ball wastefully then we need to critically look at some of the guys doing it on the regular and work out how to rectify it one way or another. Bissouma, Sarr, Udogie, Porro, Son, Johnson have all been very guilty of this at times for probably varying reasons, just making poor decisions or passing horribly even at very short distances.

 

[rossdapep]

2 significant differences with Iraola.

1. He generally uses a 3-2 rest defence shape for build up, at worst 3-1. This is in comparison to Ange, who goes with in theory a 2-3 shape but in reality it becomes a 2-1, which is why we are so open, even when we were able to press. Iraola’s structure just has more security to it.

2. Iraola is 42 years old and has already shown significant signs of evolution in his coaching. This leads me to believe there is a good chance he will actually learn from issues and adapt his ideas. For example learning to manage games better with passive possession to conserve energy.

Yep.

Poch came to us and had flaws in his game.

I cant recall exactly but I don't think his Southampton team hardly ever recovered a deficit at HT.

I also remember a lot of Southampton fans complaining about some of his methods.

I know people complained about some of Poch's methods and choices with us but there's no doubt he improved a lot with us.

 

[spurs9]

2 significant differences with Iraola.

1. He generally uses a 3-2 rest defence shape for build up, at worst 3-1. This is in comparison to Ange, who goes with in theory a 2-3 shape but in reality it becomes a 2-1, which is why we are so open, even when we were able to press. Iraola’s structure just has more security to it.

2. Iraola is 42 years old and has already shown significant signs of evolution in his coaching. This leads me to believe there is a good chance he will actually learn from issues and adapt his ideas. For example learning to manage games better with passive possession to conserve energy.

Also meant to add that a lot of our problems with Ange haven’t come with our pressing till later in the season. That could be due to injuries and fatigue and fair enough.

But a huge amount of our problems under him have always come when we have the ball and lose it. That’s where his rest defence shape of 2-3 or 2-1 kills us and we get cut open. This continues to kill us every match. Iraola in comparison has the safer rest defence structure.

So while we may encounter issues with our pressing under Iraola, I think we’d be safer in possession when we lose the ball and I trust him more to find solutions and evolve his approach to deal with fatigue/injuries and more games.

Genuine question, what signs of "evolution in his coaching: has Iraola shown?

How do you think fans will take constantly having less possession than the opposition? How can you be so confident that he will successfully evolve his approach to deal with injuries/fatigue when he has never had to deal with being in a European comp before, especially when their injuries haven't been great without it. They have only played 4 two game weeks and a total of 27 games. For context, we have played 16 two game weeks and 39 games total.

 

[Gilzeanking]

I agree mate, I don’t believe rocket science is needed to explain why we went from pretty good pre-injuries to shit post injuries.

Rewriting history is fun.

To quote Florida Spur...'Tiredness or not, that team should be able to keep some semblance of an organized shape, with or without the ball.'

 

[Mattspurs1982]

Has Ange said we're expecting any players to return from injury for the Man Yoo match?

 

[spurmin]

Has Ange said we're expecting any players to return from injury for the Man Yoo match?

The press conference is today, Friday.

 

[Mattspurs1982]

The press conference is today, Friday.

Thanks bud

 

[the stick man]

Also meant to add that a lot of our problems with Ange haven’t come with our pressing till later in the season. That could be due to injuries and fatigue and fair enough.

But a huge amount of our problems under him have always come when we have the ball and lose it. That’s where his rest defence shape of 2-3 or 2-1 kills us and we get cut open. This continues to kill us every match. Iraola in comparison has the safer rest defence structure.

So while we may encounter issues with our pressing under Iraola, I think we’d be safer in possession when we lose the ball and I trust him more to find solutions and evolve his approach to deal with fatigue/injuries and more games.

What’s a ‘rest defence shape’?

I can’t keep up with all these new phrases.