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Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

Ange In or Ange Out?

  • Ange In

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Led Revolver

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2012
1,093
3,982
Nothing mate, but wetting the bed over a shit run of league games (whilst also going on a solid run of cup games) during a massive injury crisis, having only signed one proper first team player in the summer window, despite having not replaced Kane the summer before is too much.

Sure you can cherry pick all the bad stats you want. You can ignore the style of football that Ange has brought back to the club, the young players that he's beginning to mould into future stars for another manager and a dozen other things that have improved under him, but that doesn't mean your opinion is right, or indeed wrong, it's just that - an opinion.
‘wetting the bed over a shit run of league games’.. worst form for a decade
‘cherry pick all the bad stats you want‘ would rather reality over cherry picking the good stats
style of football that Ange has brought back to the club’ hasn’t been setting the world alight this season for the large majority of games
the young players that he's beginning to mould into future stars’ I’d rather a manager who consistently improves players; Sarr, Udogie, Porro, Dragusin’s performances have either stagnated or regressed.
dozen other things that have improved under him’ Such as?

Injuries have been awful but it’s in part, at least, down to our tactics.

The summer window neglected several key areas (whats new?) and not replacing Kane’s huge standing within the club itself, never mind the team, has hurt us massively, granted,
 

Jules_PF

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2014
342
732
I think Son is a massive problem. He's the captain and draws huge interest world wide.

The Club say that senior players are letting Ange down....this includes Son, probably the first name that comes to mind.

Then why the fuck does Ange keep picking him (see paragraph one)

Richarlison can play wide left, there is no excuse to have him starting on Sunday

That is the reason I called his attack on Werner cowardly. Son had an absolute stinker that game (Rangers) as did Johnson and he only named Werner.
 

brasil_spur

SC Supporter
Aug 25, 2006
13,396
18,872
The January window when we signed Keane, Defoe and Palacios is the best comparison. We were in trouble and needed bodies, and we got them. Spent what is now the equivalent of about £100m on them. We could afford to spend that now.
Did some quick maths and it's about £165m in today's transfer money.
 

Mr Pink

SC Supporter
Aug 25, 2010
58,701
114,392
That is the reason I called his attack on Werner cowardly. Son had an absolute stinker that game (Rangers) as did Johnson and he only named Werner.

Absolutely.

Hanging out a fringe player, whilst continuing to pick, every week, an underperforming player and going to town on the fringe player because he can't actually say what the real problem is.

Hmm...that's more cowardly.
 

cjbyid

Well-Known Member
Jan 4, 2009
8,596
29,098
That is the reason I called his attack on Werner cowardly. Son had an absolute stinker that game (Rangers) as did Johnson and he only named Werner.

That really annoyed me too. Okay Werner isn't great yeah but Johnson & Son were equally as shit. As were most of the team.

Absolutely no need for him to call out Werner alone
 

spursfan77

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2005
48,077
109,833
My issue with that stance (Matt Law's piece) is that I don't see us having players that are the 'get the manager sacked' type.

The issue with a lof of these players is that they are either struggling to do what Ange wants, which Ange should be particlally to blame for anyway, or the club have put them on a pedastal anyway.

For example, Maddison and Romero as vice captains. Son as captain.

All 3 of them have been inconsistent, and Son has been largely dreadful. Yet they are the go-to guys. It's not that they have been disruptive, it's more the fact the coach put them on the pedastal and has allowed them to put in avergae performances constantly.

I also imagine Werner is in that category. Yet the club signed him despite every fan and his dog knowing what to expect from him.

This stance should have been in place when Poch was here.

Yet as always with Levy and co, by the time the mindset shifts, it's already too late and inadequately applied.

Conte and Jose weren't cut that slack for falling slightly below top 4.

Ange gets the slack cut when we are 14th and falling.

It does not make sense.

Lastly, they are willing to move mountains or at least shift parts for Ange, a coach who had big question marks over him, yet they refused to hire Nagelsmann, an exciting winning coach who could genuinley have changed us, because he wanted a suited structure in place?

Nothing ever make sense with this club.

I wouldn’t put too much stock in the matt law piece. He kind of admits in it he can’t believe he hasn’t been sacked then offers up a load of games we would have to lose before February to do so.
 

okc1992

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2024
315
928
Not Ange, whoever is making the decisions.

Look it's all supposition anyway.

But what I will say is something doesn't sit right.

The amount of injuries is ridiculous and it's bound to be somewhat related to our playing style and lack of rotation.
The amount of injuries is down to the playing style that has been amplified by the number of games and the lack of rotation, due to lack of options and Ange not trusting players.

The medical team are also an issue so at least they're trying to fix that.
 

Guernman

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2013
1,722
9,013
Among the many things that have gone against Postecoglou is the form of Son. Having to choose a captain right away was never going to be easy, especially as we didn't really have anyone that was going to tick every box.

I totally understand why he chose Son, but now that his form has fallen off a cliff, it creates a real problem. Son has embraced the leadership role, as much as he can, but he isn't really a leader. Meanwhile his current form would justify him being dropped, but dropping the captain could create additional issues within the group.
 

Thenewcat

Well-Known Member
Aug 8, 2019
3,877
13,238
Are we doing the injury thing again, because that's incredibly disingenuous when Ange has stated his demands cause certain injuries.

I'm genuinely done with posters like you that double down on absolutely everything regardless, it's tiresome, as bad as some of the really vocal Ange out brigade who I've put on ignore.
Have you actually read my posts? All ive said is 1) injuries are a factor and they aren’t all caused by Ange and 2) out forwards aren’t remotely good enough IMO. Why that makes you ‘done’ I don’t know. I’m not pretending Ange is perfect and should be blindly praised by any means
 

brasil_spur

SC Supporter
Aug 25, 2006
13,396
18,872
‘wetting the bed over a shit run of league games’.. worst form for a decade
Worst league form. You can't ignore the other games we're paying entirely from the picture.

‘cherry pick all the bad stats you want‘ would rather reality over cherry picking the good stats
Don't cherry pick any stats was my obvious point - needs to be a balanced view.

style of football that Ange has brought back to the club’ hasn’t been setting the world alight this season for the large majority of games
That's results that you're confusing with style of football bud. Results in the league have been shit. They have been good in the cups.

Style of play, for the most part, has been a breath of fresh air considering the years from Jose until Ange.

the young players that he's beginning to mould into future stars’ I’d rather a manager who consistently improves players; Sarr, Udogie, Porro, Dragusin’s performances have either stagnated or regressed.
Udogie has spent 160 days injured since the end of October last year. Porro hasn't regressed IMO, that's very subjective, his market value has definitely stayed flat too. Dragusin certainly hasn't regressed, given he only just started playing properly for us a couple of months ago. Sarr is the one player I would give you here.

Injuries have been awful but it’s in part, at least, down to our tactics.
That's very debatable, I think at most there's two players who have suffered ham string injuries that didn't have form for it before Ange (Romero and Davies).

The summer window neglected several key areas (whats new?) and not replacing Kane’s huge standing within the club itself, never mind the team, has hurt us massively, granted,
Yeh I get that it's nothing new, but that's my point with all this. Why replace Ange with someone who we will fail to back again, and then rinse repeat this cycle of shit for ever?
 

CowInAComa

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
7,429
18,760
Good post , I disagree with a lot of it slightly but that’s fine.
I would like to debate one point though. It’s not that I don’t see positives, it’s that the positives will be negated by negatives due to lack of progress. Having this young squad is all well and fine but if you don’t show ambition then like we are likely to you lose your best defender in the summer, that puts you further back, then if you’re someone like deki do you sign a new deal or go somewhere that will pay top wages ? We all know the answer to that.

of course we have excellent players but if you don’t keep up which we haven’t done then you’re forever playing catch up. The only way to break the cycle is to show your ambition and we don’t and won’t do that.
Problem with the strategy is yes we might have an extremely talented group of players in 3-4 years time, but they've completely overlooked the present whilst gazing into the future...and our current league position is directly related to this imo.

You both make that same point, which is undeniably correct, ultimately ENIC need to show real intent if we are to ever bridge the gap which they probably wont - but not sure that is really relevant to whether we keep the current manager, or if we panic buy the first person available this window.

That ENIC/Levy have a historical precedent for holding us back is beyond doubt. I cant possibly argue with that. I wont even argue that there is any reason to think they will ever change - they have many times in the past stuck when they should have twisted or undercut a promising squad with penny pinching just when we needed them to show ambition. I am no ENIC apologist i have had many a antiLevy rant at the end of a transfer window or when a deal falls through.

But that doesnt change the fact that i am much more comfortable with our transfer strategy over the last 18 months and that it makes more sense to me than for a while - of course, you would hope that once we have some foundation in place we start really doubling down and looking at some big intent but as a first step to building a decent squad id take it. Fully fit I think our squad is better than it was when Ange joined.

I really havent got a huge opinion of whether Ange is the right man for us, there are lots of good arguments against him around his tactics/injuries/flexibility that i cant say i would totally discount but at the same time I think he has been absolutely decimated by ridiculous selection issues - and the decline of Son and Maddison. But seeing as he is our manager and we are supposedly buying players that fit his blueprint it seems a bit shortsighted to chop and change now just when things might be returning to a even level - lets at least give him a fair crack of the whip is my opinion.

Also - I dont see ENIC going anywhere soon; so what are we supposed to do? Just not bother even trying either on the pitch or in the stands, dismiss any positives we may have because ultimately it is futile?
 

jakuba

Well-Known Member
Aug 20, 2013
806
2,567
Normally coaches complain because they don't feel they are given responsibility by the manager, never trusted to put forward or implement their ideas. Its disappointing to hear our coaches aren't embracing the challenge or maybe that their not up to it?

At Celtic, John Kennedy had responsibility for organising each daily session. He & the 1st team coaches, together with strength & conditioning people, physios etc.. would meet & agree the daily schedule & once that was agreed they'd meet Ange to get final signoff.

JK & Harry Kewell etc.. all spoke publicly about how they relished the responsibility & appreciated the faith placed in them. They also stated that they knew if Ange felt they weren't up to the task, he'd have no hesitation recommending they be replaced.

Empowering people, delegating responsibility & tasks, ensuring accountability is what management is about. JK spoke that Ange put high demands on players & all staff, but was always available to discuss, help & review. Ange liked tension in the training ground, he never wanted people feeling comfortable or getting complacent. At elite level, everyone should be looking over their shoulders, aware someone is ready to replace them if their standards drop. Ange accepts he'll be sacked if results don't improve.

Ange's message has never deviated, the next match is the most important match, no matter the opposition. Always aim to win.

Changing a culture within an organisation isn't a quick fix. Ange has always spoken that every decision he makes, is based on a longterm view. Results & performances may be shite at the minute & it's hard for many to see any reasons for sticking with Ange, but for me I still believe the club overall will benefit longterm from Ange being in charge....
This point has been done to death and I’m sure you’re as sick of it as others.

But the premier league is not Scotland, not Japan and we’re definitely not Celtic in Scotland.

The standard to which players need to be coached is higher in the premier league because every other team is coaching their players to a high standard, every other team has top quality players who would be the best in the league in Scotland. The gap between teams here is smaller than they will be between Celtic and any other team in Scotland bar Rangers.

Whatever worked elsewhere is clearly not working here. Our players don’t look prepared for any given game and we don’t seem to set up differently game by game, only changing if the other team forces us to like Arsenal on Wednesday or Liverpool last Thursday.

At the level Celtic are at in their league relative to their opponents. They can go out with these vague concepts and run rings around the other team because their players are that much better and relative to the opposition the level of coaching is that much better. But as soon as the floor is raised on the opposition where even the worst team is still full of talent and well drilled it will exploit this unstructured style of play and coaching. As we’re seeing right now and as we saw with Ange at Celtic in Europe.

He’s come here, he’s tried something different and it’s not worked. Teams have figured it out and are punishing him week in week out. There doesn’t seem to be any indication of what he’s doing to change things so until he goes we will continue to lose games in the same way we have been losing them for the past 19 months.
 
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DogsOfWar

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2005
2,398
3,937
My overall view after the Summer was the squad was much stronger but the first team wasn't so expected us to do worse in the league and better in the cups.
It's pretty much worked out that way so I've not gone over the edge yet.

As for Ange, attacking systems of football need much higher quality players and we're still a couple short so, again, I'm not surprised we're struggling when combined with the injuries.
I believe he should be more pragmatic and should have used his squad better to rotate but he's always stuck to his guns which is fair enough.
I also believe our incomings have been better since he's arrived.

So, with no Plan B looking likely, I'd stick with him until the end of the season (assuming we don't get any closer to relegation) and see if we can nick a cup.
Get the 3 or 4 players we are short of in the Summer and then get a Plan B manager ready.
If Ange continues to struggle then at least the new guy comes in with a relatively complete squad to take over.
 

southlondonyiddo

My eyes have seen some of the glory..
Nov 8, 2004
13,178
16,527
My issue with that stance (Matt Law's piece) is that I don't see us having players that are the 'get the manager sacked' type.

The issue with a lof of these players is that they are either struggling to do what Ange wants, which Ange should be particlally to blame for anyway, or the club have put them on a pedastal anyway.

For example, Maddison and Romero as vice captains. Son as captain.

All 3 of them have been inconsistent, and Son has been largely dreadful. Yet they are the go-to guys. It's not that they have been disruptive, it's more the fact the coach put them on the pedastal and has allowed them to put in avergae performances constantly.

I also imagine Werner is in that category. Yet the club signed him despite every fan and his dog knowing what to expect from him.

This stance should have been in place when Poch was here.

Yet as always with Levy and co, by the time the mindset shifts, it's already too late and inadequately applied.

Conte and Jose weren't cut that slack for falling slightly below top 4.

Ange gets the slack cut when we are 14th and falling.

It does not make sense.

Lastly, they are willing to move mountains or at least shift parts for Ange, a coach who had big question marks over him, yet they refused to hire Nagelsmann, an exciting winning coach who could genuinley have changed us, because he wanted a suited structure in place?

Nothing ever make sense with this club.
Makes perfect sense. The bloke at the top hasn’t got a fucking clue about his footballing strategy and hasn’t for the past 22 years

It’s clear as day
 

mil1lion

This is the place to be
May 7, 2004
46,196
92,887
Just a little reminder to those who want to attribute this wretched form to injuries, this was our starting XI vs Crystal Palace when they earned their first win of the season against us:

Vicario, Porro, Romero, VdV, Udogie, Maddison, Bissouma, Kulusevski, Johnson, Solanke, Moore.

This was our starting XI vs Ipswich when they earned their first win of the season against us:

Vicario, Porro, Romero, Dragusin, Udogie, Kulusevski, Bentancur, Sarr, Johnson, Solanke, Son.

Only Son and Spence were unavailable for the Palace game. And of our usual starters only Van de Ven was unavailable for the Ipswich game. We had a strong bench for both games.
What about the other games or are you only listing the bad ones? We were not bad back to back across multiple weeks before the injuries. Personally I think the games where we were particularly bad before Vicario got injured (which I think was about the time where you could say our injury list was higher than usual) were Palace, Brighton and Ipswich in the league. In the cup it was Galatasaray, Qarabag (with 10 men) and Coventry (although we won the latter 2 while not being good which is not necessarily a bad thing). In that time we also played Leicester, Newcastle, Arsenal, Villa, West Ham, Brentford, City (league and cup), Ferencvarosi, AZ and I don't think we were bad in either of them. Now if you take the cups as our 2nd rotated squad before the injuries the league is 3 bad performances versus 9 when it comes to the first team. The cup or more rotated squad is 4 bad versus 1 good, excluding 1 league cup game as its with what you would call the first team against City and we won that.

It's very clear performances have been much worse since the injuries. That's not to say we shouldn't be able to cope better though. It just annoys me when people single out the odd games to boost their argument while ignoring the others. Yes we are worse the further into the squad we go, that's also made worse with them playing twice a week. No we were still not good enough for where we want to be but the signs were at least promising. I think we just wait and see whether it turns around sufficiently as players return and go from there.
 

brasil_spur

SC Supporter
Aug 25, 2006
13,396
18,872
the league is not finished at that moment.
EXACTLY

It's also not finished now either. If Ange gets as many points in the next 17 games as he did during the last 17 games of last season we'll likely finish 10th. If he averages points like he did across the whole of last season for the remainder of this one then we'll likely finish 8th.

The league season isn't fully over for us, yet, albeit the next 2 games are very critical for us/Ange.
 

TOLBINY

Well-Known Member
Feb 4, 2019
1,551
3,447
If it's true it's a big thing for sure, but the proof is in the actions not the words. Let's see how true to the words we are when it comes to losing money on the players that have to be moved out as a consequence. Let's see if they are willing to get the players out quickly or have them hanging around and stink the place out because we could get an extra mil or two in a years time.

I also want to see how Ange treats the players that have been letting him down. Let's see if he makes it clear to them what they have been offering up is not acceptable. We had it early on in Pochs reign where Harry and a few of the other boys stood up to the senior players and Poch made the very difficult but correct choice of going with the youth over experience. I would like to see the same here, and I personally would afford him more time(I'd actually be encouraged to back him) if I saw him benching the likes of Son, Bissouma and Madison in favour of the youth when they don't perform to acceptable levels.

It can't just be empty veiled threats that either the club or Ange don't back up with actions.
Don't disagree with you Trix, although Maddison has been benched a few times despite being the player who scored a brace in our only two wins in the last ten Prem games.

Bissouma will get less game time once Bentancur is back and we don't need Gray in defence.

Sonny - directives from above maybe (?) until Yang gets blooded.
 

coy-spurs1882

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
4,545
12,162
EXACTLY

It's also not finished now either. If Ange gets as many points in the next 17 games as he did during the last 17 games of last season we'll likely finish 10th. If he averages points like he did across the whole of last season for the remainder of this one then we'll likely finish 8th.

The league season isn't fully over for us, yet, albeit the next 2 games are very critical for us/Ange.
hopefully we won't get into the "maybe there was something we could have done, but it’s too late now" stage then
 

TOLBINY

Well-Known Member
Feb 4, 2019
1,551
3,447
Matt Law apparently saying - can't read the whole article - that Postecoglou will not be undermined and that the squad can no longer sit around and wait for the manager to be sacked when they fail to perform or step out of line.
No way - what some of the players are at fault? If only the last manager had warned us before he departed!
 
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