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Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

eddiebailey

Well-Known Member
Oct 12, 2004
8,242
8,777
It seems like some people are confusing facts with opinions..

Fact is we’re 14..
Fact is we’ve lost 11 in the league..
Fact is it’s the worst position we’ve been in for years.

What out of that lot is difficult for ANYONE to understand!?
Fact: We have an average of around 10 first teamers out since the beginning of November.
Fact: We are competing in European competition and would be higher up the league if we weren’t.
Fact: We’re in the semi-finals of the League Cup
Fact: We’ve succeeded in integrating three potentially world class teenagers into our starting lineup who are set to be key players for us for the next decade.
Fact: When we are good (which is not often enough) we’re excellent.
 

E17yid

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2013
19,549
39,335
Sorry! I didn't answer your question! December. I think the squad will be complete this summer.
To me,‘if you say the squad will be complete in the summer it implies we only need to sign a few players. If we only need to sign a few players why the fuck are we in 14th? I’d understand the position more if it was we need another 2 or 3 windows and at least 6 or 7 more players but if we only need 1 more window why do we look so shit now?
 

Oh Teddy Teddy

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2017
6,649
16,719
It seems like some people are confusing facts with opinions..

Fact is we’re 14..
Fact is we’ve lost 11 in the league..
Fact is it’s the worst position we’ve been in for years.

In the words of both Ange Postecoglou AND David Brent (that’s also a fact btw) nothing changes by staying the same..

What out of that lot is difficult for ANYONE to understand!?

Sure, alternatively:

Fact is we're in a cup semi with a half-time lead.
Fact is we're still in every other cup.
Fact is we're nursing more injuries than any other club, save maybe Southampton.
Fact is four of our five defenders/GK have been injured for months.

I don't disagree with those who think the evidence suggests he should go, but there are 'facts' that matter on both sides of the Ange In / Ange Out debate, and when they are used in his defence, or against him, there are always more excuses. "Injuries are because of him", "once he gets his players, it'll all be better".

Feel like we have a lot more pages of this to go...
 

kremlyn

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2004
1,932
3,339
Yeah, fair points.

Tbh my post is aimed at number of posters on here that are extremely vocal in their support for Ange and find an excuse for every single criticism.

I've been told god knows how many times on here, "I hate Ange", when it's actually the opposite. I like the guy, I just think he's the wrong man for the job.
Fair enough. Who do you think is the right guy and why?
 

jakuba

Well-Known Member
Aug 20, 2013
779
2,499
When he has a squad to choose from we've been fantastic. I honestly love the style and philosophy of this team in full flow.
I don’t see where this narrative has come from?

With a full squad we’ve been inconsistent making us absolutely bang average outside of his opening 10 games. Furthermore we’ve had outrageous injuries basically the whole time he’s been here and I don’t think that’s coincidence. Even if it were the case that with a full squad we’re world beaters 9 games out of 10 no team consistently has a full squad season round as injuries and suspensions are part of the game. But it seems to be the case that injuries are even more prevalent playing Ange’s system which is going to make the injury issue persist much more and shoot himself in the foot to continue to lose players to injury. If the only way to sustain Ange’s football is having 25 top quality players that’s never going to happen as no squad has that because you can’t keep that many stars match-sharp and happy.

Ange’s football only works in an ideal world where everything is optimal and teams only want to win fair and square playing the purest football. That’s not the case, nobody ever has an entire squad of top players, players get injured, suspended, blow hot and cold for form and teams will play in the way that gives them the best chance of winning not play in a way that is the most attractive football. Because of that his football falls miles short of success and seemingly closer to disaster if allowed to persist over a long period of time against top quality opposition.
 

spursfan77

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2005
48,040
109,630
When the players are back they'll find another excuse and then another.

I think everyone(well almost) are under no illusions now that it's Enic that are the main problem, and those still behind Ange are just that sick of changing managers that they've hung their hat on this particular post because he's a nice guy and mostly says the right things.

The owners thing goes without saying, everyone knows that now.

Is he a nice guy? I don’t know where that comes from. He’s not Conte or mourinho but I wouldn’t call him nice exactly. Seems quite rude to tv interviewers and journalists.
 

Thenewcat

Well-Known Member
Aug 8, 2019
3,866
13,215
for that IMHO we need crica 20 first teamers in the squad to allow for no / minimal drop off in quality
That’s just totally unrealistic though. The only teams who have even remotely approached it are city and Chelsea and they did it by spending money like water, but even then look at the drop off for city when Rodri and KDB are out. We aren’t going to have a backup for Romero who is as good as Romero and if we did they would want to leave. So you’ve looked at Dragusin over 10 games in an absolute patchwork defence and decided he isn’t good enough and we should spend 60m on a replacement. The first bit hasty and the second is fanciful. If we bought two elite players at your prices (a 6 and a forward) plus two more quality signings at more like the Dragusin/Gray level for a versatile defender and another forward I’d be absolutely over the moon
 

Silky Skills

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2013
785
2,332
You can scream this from the roof tops and the same people will keep talking about the injuries as if they're the sole reason for our struggles with no acknowledgement of the inconsistency that's plagued us for well over a year with a healthier squad.
Agree, plus the "Porro has been run into the ground", "Kulu is knackered" - Ange just hasn't used the squad or the youth (as I am sure was promised when he was appointed), for evidence please refere to the use of Spence (until forced), Reggie and Lankshear; this is not Enic or Levy, this is the manager
 

Bluto Blutarsky

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2021
21,370
95,855
Honest question, how long do we give it before deciding he is not the one to back?

Multi-part answer.

First, I said we should sack him back in December - for similar reasons you suggest here. I don't think he can coach, and have not seen improvements in the squad. It was not a popular opinion in December, but I still think its true today.

Second, having stuck with Ange until now, I think the best course of action is to see through the end of the season, and then have a wider choice of replacement managers to pick from - and I don't really see any benefit to an interim manager to finish out the season (I think the coaches we have share in the blame). We know there has been an injury crisis, so, let's see how the squad reacts as we get healthy - and judge Ange on the evidence at the end of the season. Do you see progress?

Third, backing the manager, is less about the manager, and more about the football director and the squad. No matter who the manager is - we NEED several positions. We need an adequate LB to compete with Udogie. We need a CB. We need a winger/forward, and I think we need CM competition/replacement for Bissouma/Bentancur.

The current squad is being run into the ground and needs help - even if you sack Ange tomorrow.

So, I think the final answer is you back Lange/Munn now so that any manager has the players needed to get back to the top of the table - and/or win some silverware this season.
 

Trix

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2004
22,578
372,191
we won't. we had been 90% shit and 10% good for more than a year even when most players are fit
I agree. Those 10% games to be fair though were very very good.

I've said it throughout tbh, on our day we are capable of beating anyone in the world. That day is just too few and too far between though unfortunately, and as time has gone on they've become less and less and less.

I said in the first few games of last season, despite getting results, that the way we played was not sustainable and that when teams worked it out there would be a blue print of how to play against us because of how predictable it all was. That is very much the case now, and I don't think we will ever get enough players with the right ability and skillset, in every position to stop this from being the case.
 

Thenewcat

Well-Known Member
Aug 8, 2019
3,866
13,215
You can scream this from the roof tops and the same people will keep talking about the injuries as if they're the sole reason for our struggles with no acknowledgement of the inconsistency that's plagued us for well over a year with a healthier squad.
And you can make things to all you want but I have not talked about injuries as the sole reason for our struggles at any point. The reality is the opposite - the majority of Ange out posters refuse to acknowledge injuries have any bearing on our current form
 

tommo84

Proud to be loud
Aug 15, 2005
7,016
13,414
Just a little reminder to those who want to attribute this wretched form to injuries, this was our starting XI vs Crystal Palace when they earned their first win of the season against us:

Vicario, Porro, Romero, VdV, Udogie, Maddison, Bissouma, Kulusevski, Johnson, Solanke, Moore.

This was our starting XI vs Ipswich when they earned their first win of the season against us:

Vicario, Porro, Romero, Dragusin, Udogie, Kulusevski, Bentancur, Sarr, Johnson, Solanke, Son.

Only Son and Spence were unavailable for the Palace game. And of our usual starters only Van de Ven was unavailable for the Ipswich game. We had a strong bench for both games.
 

coy-spurs1882

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
4,545
12,162
Fact: We have an average of around 10 first teamers out since the beginning of November.
Fact: We are competing in European competition and would be higher up the league if we weren’t.
Fact: We’re in the semi-finals of the League Cup
Fact: We’ve succeeded in integrating three potentially world class teenagers into our starting lineup who are set to be key players for us for the next decade.
Fact: When we are good (which is not often enough) we’re excellent.
Fact: When we had a more or less complete squad we were still losing more than winning
Fact: We haven't won neither Europa or League Cup yet
Fact: You are not excellent if you can't do it consistently
 

kremlyn

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2004
1,932
3,339
To me,‘if you say the squad will be complete in the summer it implies we only need to sign a few players. If we only need to sign a few players why the fuck are we in 14th? I’d understand the position more if it was we need another 2 or 3 windows and at least 6 or 7 more players but if we only need 1 more window why do we look so shit now?
I'm not alone in thinking a RW and a LB would be transformative.

There are other bits too which we might do like replacing Romero if he leaves, replacing Davis if he's done, replacing Maddison who I'm not sure has the mettle, replacing Richy if it makes sense to Ange.

The top 2 are essential and easily done in the summer.
 

CowInAComa

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
7,407
18,679
I think if we hadn’t had europa you would be spot on. I also think you’re in the minority (along with the club) in thinking fans would accept this as a rebuild season. That was last and this was the time to build on that fifth place finish , not step back.

it may not bother you, I don’t know but the metrics of telling people for years about this game changing stadium and then acting the exact same way as you did in the old one are terrible. People are out of patience.

Well i said it was an error of judgement so im not necessarily saying anyone would be happy with a rebuild season of such lows, but at the same time I dont think we could reasonable account for the injury situation and being in the bottom half - do you objectively feel that Poch's team short of Lloris, Verts, Toby and Walker for a large chunk of the season is ripping it up - you can only absorb so much attrition before it gets too much.

And I dont think objectively the rebuild necessarily meant a backwards step from the season before where we got 5th - we certainly werent weaker starting this season so I dont think it was hugely naïve to think we couldnt at least match last season and blood a good group of youngsters in the meantime.

If you cant see any positive if our current squad then that is your prerogative, personally i dont think i am being blindly optimistic to look at the young squad we are assembling to think there is some light at the end of the tunnel once we get some injuries back.
 

Trix

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2004
22,578
372,191
Multi-part answer.

First, I said we should sack him back in December - for similar reasons you suggest here. I don't think he can coach, and have not seen improvements in the squad. It was not a popular opinion in December, but I still think its true today.

Second, having stuck with Ange until now, I think the best course of action is to see through the end of the season, and then have a wider choice of replacement managers to pick from - and I don't really see any benefit to an interim manager to finish out the season (I think the coaches we have share in the blame). We know there has been an injury crisis, so, let's see how the squad reacts as we get healthy - and judge Ange on the evidence at the end of the season. Do you see progress?

Third, backing the manager, is less about the manager, and more about the football director and the squad. No matter who the manager is - we NEED several positions. We need an adequate LB to compete with Udogie. We need a CB. We need a winger/forward, and I think we need CM competition/replacement for Bissouma/Bentancur.

The current squad is being run into the ground and needs help - even if you sack Ange tomorrow.

So, I think the final answer is you back Lange/Munn now so that any manager has the players needed to get back to the top of the table - and/or win some silverware this season.
As for the coaches something I've heard and posted bts is that they aren't overly happy with things. They are basically told what they have to achieve, ie, this is what the end result must be, and then Ange walks off and they are left to get on with it. They believe they've had to abandon the fundamentals to a large degree, and are very uncertain how to get to the point Ange wants because he's not telling them how to.
 
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