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Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

Ange In or Ange Out?

  • Ange In

  • Ange Out


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For the love of Spurs

Well-Known Member
Mar 28, 2015
4,224
14,496
It’s quite ironic that we’ve all asked for a ‘project’ and for the club to give a manager time and right now we are doing that but we are 100% make no doubt about it, heading for a relegation battle the form we are in.

So do we stick or twist…

If Ange wasn’t so ‘likeable’ and fresh with his style of play compared to the previous managers as well as so good in the press and still in all the cups, he’d have been sacked ages ago.

This is really on a knife edge right now.

On one hand we have some players coming back and are still in all the cups including 1 toe in a final of the league cup, on the other hand in the league we are heading for a relegation dog fight if we carry on like this, lose to Everton and there might be a decision to make :(

Id like to think Ange needs a Poch or Fergie cup moment but our league form is seriously seriously concerning.

its hard to know. So many of our senior players have been useless but some kids have been outstanding. It’s hard to know how much Ange is holding back certain players because the likes of Gray and Bergvall are thriving which makes me question whether or not our squad is basically a bit crap.
 

Barmby Army

Well-Known Member
Jul 21, 2020
192
917
All managers live or die by their results ultimately, but I really think this is a situation where we have to acknowledge how huge the impact of the injuries has been, and that they completely change the context of how the season has gone so far, and how we should be planning for the future. It's not just the number of injuries we've had, but the specific players that have been out and, more importantly, the players that have come in.

It's one thing having an injury crisis, but we've had an extreme injury crisis at the worst possible time, when we're halfway through a rebuild. Ange has reshaped the team to his requirements but the job isn't complete and the backups in key defensive positions, while good players, are completely unsuited to the new setup. On top of that, the few first teamers who have remained fit have, by necessity, been playing way too much and are completely exhausted and so playing below their level. It would be basically impossible for any manager to succeed in this situation. The high defensive line relies on Van de Ven's pace - obviously whoever comes in won't be as quick, but his backup is Ben Davies who, for all his qualities, is not at all quick. The line also relies on Vicario's speed off his line, which most keepers have now. Again our backup, Forster, is completely unsuited to that.

The easy answer is 'change the system', and there is some merit to that. Playing much deeper would obviously help a goalkeeper and centre backs that don't have the ability to protect that gap in behind. But I don't think it's that simple, because the parts of the squad that have already been rebuilt aren't designed for that sort of play. Porro, Udogie, Bissouma, Sarr, Bentancur and Maddison are all front foot players who will be at best wasted (Bentancur, Maddison, Sarr) and at worst horribly exposed (Porro, Udogie) by playing the sort of system that would better protect the goalkeeper and centre backs. That's before you even get into the detail of suddenly having a complete change of system, fronted by a manager who is not an expert in that system.

We're caught between two worlds at the moment and this ridiculously specific injury crisis, taking out the three most important elements (Vicario, Van de Ven and Romero) before we've been able to find alternatives, has completely killed us. The league season is a write-off. It's a shit situation. But I think it would be nuts to sack Postecoglou at the moment, personally.

I don't even necessarily think he will succeed long term - maybe his intransigence will get the better of him in the end, his ideals don't quite play out as he imagined they might and we continue to get exposed defensively by better, cleverer teams. There is a question mark over him, for sure. But, unlike previous managers we've had that hit poor runs, there is every reason to believe that this situation is specific to these circumstances, and that things will improve significantly both in the short term (once Van de Ven and Romero are back) and the long term (when the squad rebuild gets closer to completion and we have replacements who are comfortable in our system).

We've already taken a huge step forward in signing Kinsky, who immediately looks much better suited to the system than Forster and possibly Vicario as well. The injury crisis has also forced us to give extra game time to Spence, Bergvall and Gray, all of whom have quickly shown themselves to be good players who are suited to our system and should be even better in the future. Bergvall and Gray both look like superstars, Spence is developing very quickly too. Even without injuries, those four are providing serious competition for starting places now.

If we were to sack Postecoglou any time soon - I'd at least give him the summer and the first half next season to complete the rebuild and see how the team gets on under less difficult circumstances - it would begin another rebuild. If we cut and run at the first sign of trouble, we will never get to where we want to be. I appreciate this season has been worse than just 'first sign of trouble' on paper, but given the context I honestly believe it would be unwise to judge Ange based on the past few months, and even less wise to assume it won't be much, much better in the near future.
 

shoggy33

Well-Known Member
Feb 25, 2007
1,399
4,729
It blows my mind that people are still using injuries as an excuse for him turning us into relegation candidates. Firstly, we were absolutely shite before the injuries kicked in, and for 2/3 of last season. Secondly, his methods may well be causing the injuries, why the hell does anyone think all these players are just going to all come back and the injury crisis will end?
 

therealGlenn

loves sausage baps
Sep 14, 2020
518
2,429
What makes this even worse is that what kind of strategy do we have in this transfer window if Levy is like minded in his opinion of Ange?
 

gerishep

Connected to the Spurs.
Aug 2, 2004
1,318
2,189
This time due to the profile of players recruited I wouldn’t say that it’s been 18 months wasted as we have a lot of good young technical players who most modern coaches could work with.
This being the Ange thread I meant the manager in my post, but I get your point.
 

Rout-Ledge

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2005
10,750
26,072
Chat yes, Ange out chat based on yesterday's game - no.

As much as I hate to admit it that game yesterday was always very likely to go the way it did in terms of result.

In terms of Ange - sure he could have started with a more attacking line-up than he did, but on paper the only change from the start that most of us would have considered was Maddison for Sarr.

We had a knackered Porro, Dragusin who has been overplayed and clearly still not great as a ball playing CB, Gray who is young and will always be fallible in a position that's new to him against top opposition and Spence, who actually had a very solid game. All of them sitting in front of a keeper who's playing the biggest game of his young life. We then had Bissouma looking well off form in midfield, Sarr getting an early yellow and therefore nullifying his intensity early on and Bergvall who was trying to make things happen but playing against some very good opposition. Ahead of that was Deki, who had a poor game by his standards, Solanke who looks knackered too, which is no surprise and Son, who looks poor on and especially off the ball.

But again from a starting line-up perspective the only player I would have considered changing from the above was Sarr.

Then at half time Ange bring on two attacking players for two defensive ones.

Johnson was his usual self - unable to use his abilities to impact the game and Maddison was, at best, ok.

Beyond those two subs, who else did we have that could make an impact from the bench?

I think calling that a limp dick display is too harsh, and laying into Ange, who had very limited scope do to much is also harsh.

Arsenal are, simply put, a better team than us at the moment and playing at home in need of a league win to stay in the PL race.

We went there knackered and with half our first 11 out injured still. A first 11 that probably would have struggled away against this Arsenal side if all fully fit.
It’s a cumulative thing. Yesterday was just another brick in the wall. There’s always an excuse ready for Ange every time we lose yet another game (which is actually bordering on gaslighting - ‘can’t believe people are calling for Ange to go after just one loss against a better side’ - yeah, right).

He got some desperately needed credit in the bank with the win against Liverpool but that’s now used up. Tamworth was an embarrassment. Being taken to extra time by a non league side is absolutely ridiculous, and they could’ve actually won it late on. If they had, it would’ve been the most shameful result in the history of the club. He’s shown time and time again that he’s absolutely incapable of finding a way to put anything even resembling a run of form together.
 

SpursSince1980

Well-Known Member
Jan 23, 2011
5,348
16,830
It's taken people a long time to see the writing on the wall. A small group of us have seen it since last season.

I stopped watching Ange pressers months ago, but I hear he called out Biss and Sarr last night. If he loses the players we're gonna get tonked soon. It's a sure sign that his days are numbered.

A miracle vs 'Pool and he stays til season end at least.
Is this really necessary? The “I told ya so?”. Just to make a point?

With all due respect, none of us are right or wrong. We all are fans. We all have differing opinions on why we are suffering and what can cure us. But I don’t think there is a need to have a subtle dig at those who have a different perspective on the overall situation. Like you and others were somehow more prescient or evolved on the topic than us laggards. As the truth is, probably most who have wanted to “wait and see”, are just fed up with all of the constant change. As that has been our club’s strategy for years… if it ain’t working, start again every 18 to 24 months. No harm in seeking a different approach to one that has bore no fruit and has delivered us a squad that is barely good enough to challenge for the top 7 places in the PL. That is what I see. And in starting again, we will once more have square pegs and round holes.

You, and others who saw this coming is hardly Druid divination. Just look at our last 6 years. This wasn’t “foreseen”. It was par for chuffing course.
 

HildoSpur

Likes Erik Lamela, deal with it.
Oct 1, 2005
11,199
37,071
I still see no point in replacing him now. We should give him till the end of the season, regroup and make a decision then.
 

Metalhead

But that's a debate for another thread.....
Nov 24, 2013
27,508
42,945
It blows my mind that people are still using injuries as an excuse for him turning us into relegation candidates. Firstly, we were absolutely shite before the injuries kicked in, and for 2/3 of last season. Secondly, his methods may well be causing the injuries, why the hell does anyone think all these players are just going to all come back and the injury crisis will end?
Aren't we recruiting a new physio team? That may just be a coincidence obviously.
 

E17yid

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2013
19,621
39,590
It blows my mind that people are still using injuries as an excuse for him turning us into relegation candidates. Firstly, we were absolutely shite before the injuries kicked in, and for 2/3 of last season. Secondly, his methods may well be causing the injuries, why the hell does anyone think all these players are just going to all come back and the injury crisis will end?
To be fair, and I’m not saying Ange has played no role in our injury issues, but we’ve sacked most of the medical team so hopefully that was a large part of the reason why we have the injuries we have.
 

gerishep

Connected to the Spurs.
Aug 2, 2004
1,318
2,189
Wow, can’t believe people in here today. We just played Arsenal away and lost 2-1 despite A) having a massively weakened team and B) having a team with players who are all overplayed right now and in need of a rest.

Last night should have been a fee hit game for Ange, we never win there under the current circumstances.

Furthermore he has been asking for forward reinforcements and clearly we need either a new CB to allow Gray to move into 6 or a player that can come in at 6.

Of course he’s still under pressure, and I agree he really needs a win against Everton, but for me nothing has changed with last nights game.
Something changed...our league position.
 

ginola99

Well-Known Member
Sep 4, 2005
743
1,835
October: 5 Games
November: 6 Games
December: 9 Games
January: 8 Games

In and around Christmas the club will have played 17 games in two months! All this during an extreme injury crisis. The previous two months we played 11 games, albeit with the international breaks.

Why no one is talking about this is beyond me.
 

brasil_spur

SC Supporter
Aug 25, 2006
13,396
18,873
It’s a cumulative thing. Yesterday was just another brick in the wall. There’s always an excuse ready for Ange every time we lose yet another game (which is actually bordering on gaslighting - ‘can’t believe people are calling for Ange to go after just one loss against a better side’ - yeah, right).

He got some credit in the bank with the win against Liverpool but that’s now used up. Tamworth was an embarrassment. Being taken to extra time by a non league side is absolutely ridiculous, and they could’ve actually won it late on. If they had, it would’ve been the most shameful result in the history of the club.
The excuse is the same as it has been for the last couple of months - we have a massive injury crisis and a team of players who are overplayed and knackered. It's not even close to bordering on gaslighting, it's the reality of the situation. Unfortunately we have far too many "soft" fans that think that we should just win regardless of the circumstances. Yes we also have some soft players, but some of our fans are just as soft, if not worse.

As for Tamworth - they didn't win it, we did, o there's little value in "what ifs" because if we start down that road then we can "what if" a load of other things, like the Newcastle game, the corner that wasn't a corner last night etc... etc...
 

mattspur1986

Well-Known Member
Jan 27, 2007
1,484
7,345
It’s quite ironic that we’ve all asked for a ‘project’ and for the club to give a manager time and right now we are doing that but we are 100% make no doubt about it, heading for a relegation battle the form we are in.

So do we stick or twist…

If Ange wasn’t so ‘likeable’ and fresh with his style of play compared to the previous managers as well as so good in the press and still in all the cups, he’d have been sacked ages ago.

This is really on a knife edge right now.

On one hand we have some players coming back and are still in all the cups including 1 toe in a final of the league cup, on the other hand in the league we are heading for a relegation dog fight if we carry on like this, lose to Everton and there might be a decision to make :(

Id like to think Ange needs a Poch or Fergie cup moment but our league form is seriously seriously concerning.
His is what we’ve all asked for, but there has to be progression year on year, and aside from the 1st 10 games and a couple of great results in between, we’ve regressed if anything.

like others I like ange, but I now more out than in, he simply won’t change his mentality which is suicidal with the players we have available ( even when fully fit squad) he won’t adapt, he won’t tinker, he’s been found out rather quickly and this is why were just free falling.

it’s not good, the buck lies firmly at levy’s door, but ange is playing a MASSIVE part of this.
 

tototoner

Staying Alert
Mar 21, 2004
29,787
35,683
Well Levy not going to sack before him end of this window, otherwise he'd have to back the new manager.

Think Liverpool loss in the 2nd leg of the semi will be fatal for Ange. Then Managerial Merry-go-Round starts again.
 

Metalhead

But that's a debate for another thread.....
Nov 24, 2013
27,508
42,945
Is this really necessary? The “I told ya so?”. Just to make a point?

With all due respect, none of us are right or wrong. We all are fans. We all have differing opinions on why we are suffering and what can cure us. But I don’t think there is a need to have a subtle dig at those who have a different perspective on the overall situation. Like you and others were somehow more prescient or evolved on the topic than us laggards. As the truth is, probably most who have wanted to “wait and see”, are just fed up with all of the constant change. As that has been our club’s strategy for years… if it ain’t working, start again every 18 to 24 months. No harm in seeking a different approach to one that has bore no fruit and has delivered us a squad that is barely good enough to challenge for the top 7 places in the PL. That is what I see. And in starting again, we will once more have square pegs and round holes.

You, and others who saw this coming is hardly Druid divination. Just look at our last 6 years. This wasn’t “foreseen”. It was par for chuffing course.
I just think that it's f***ing selfish that a small group of people knew this all along and didn't think to share their findings with Daniel and save us a lot of time and money and it could have literally saved tens of pages on this thread.
 

Rout-Ledge

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2005
10,750
26,072
The excuse is the same as it has been for the last couple of months - we have a massive injury crisis and a team of players who are overplayed and knackered. It's not even close to bordering on gaslighting, it's the reality of the situation. Unfortunately we have far too many "soft" fans that think that we should just win regardless of the circumstances. Yes we also have some soft players, but some of our fans are just as soft, if not worse.

As for Tamworth - they didn't win it, we did, o there's little value in "what ifs" because if we start down that road then we can "what if" a load of other things, like the Newcastle game, the corner that wasn't a corner last night etc... etc...
We’ve been shit even without the injuries I’m afraid. Plenty of examples this season and last. It’s not washing.

Tamworth took us to extra time and that really wouldn’t have helped our preparation for the Arsenal game. I am waiting for your excuse for this side being taken to extra time by a NON LEAGUE side?
 

Dundalk_Spur

The only Spur in the village
Jul 17, 2008
5,029
7,872
We were poor last night but ultimately undone by errors. One by the officials (who seemed to let Arsenal wrestle at every opportunity, but gave a free every time they fell down) and then Bissoumas, compounded by Dragusin for the second goal.

Last night a chat group im in saying Ange hasn't a clue how to handle it, but couldn't come up with a way of changing it to give us a chance of an equaliser. Give him time, give him the players he wants. We won't be relegated, there are far worse teams in the league. Lets take a breath and move on.
 

gerishep

Connected to the Spurs.
Aug 2, 2004
1,318
2,189
Chat yes, Ange out chat based on yesterday's game - no.

As much as I hate to admit it that game yesterday was always very likely to go the way it did in terms of result.

In terms of Ange - sure he could have started with a more attacking line-up than he did, but on paper the only change from the start that most of us would have considered was Maddison for Sarr.

We had a knackered Porro, Dragusin who has been overplayed and clearly still not great as a ball playing CB, Gray who is young and will always be fallible in a position that's new to him against top opposition and Spence, who actually had a very solid game. All of them sitting in front of a keeper who's playing the biggest game of his young life. We then had Bissouma looking well off form in midfield, Sarr getting an early yellow and therefore nullifying his intensity early on and Bergvall who was trying to make things happen but playing against some very good opposition. Ahead of that was Deki, who had a poor game by his standards, Solanke who looks knackered too, which is no surprise and Son, who looks poor on and especially off the ball.

But again from a starting line-up perspective the only player I would have considered changing from the above was Sarr.

Then at half time Ange bring on two attacking players for two defensive ones.

Johnson was his usual self - unable to use his abilities to impact the game and Maddison was, at best, ok.

Beyond those two subs, who else did we have that could make an impact from the bench?

I think calling that a limp dick display is too harsh, and laying into Ange, who had very limited scope do to much is also harsh.

Arsenal are, simply put, a better team than us at the moment and playing at home in need of a league win to stay in the PL race.

We went there knackered and with half our first 11 out injured still. A first 11 that probably would have struggled away against this Arsenal side if all fully fit.
Say what you like, but we are where we are, and it's not a good place to be.
 
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