What's new

Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

Ange In or Ange Out?

  • Ange In

  • Ange Out


Results are only viewable after voting.

Ossie85

Rio de la Plata
Aug 2, 2008
4,233
14,684
If you park the bus and play counter attacking football... you have to do a lot of sprints as well... it's just the other way around 🤷‍♂️
Difference is that in that tactic, the ones sprinting are the forwards, who are more used to sprinting and usually don’t play the full 90 minutes. While CB are not used to sprinting all the time, they are heavier, and they usually play the full game
 

Ossie85

Rio de la Plata
Aug 2, 2008
4,233
14,684
We are the only club in the league to lose their entire defence at the same time. I would call that exceptional bad luck personally.
Maybe the first time. But returning Romero and VDV earlier than expected to play against Chelsea and them getting injured again is surely not bad luck.
 

Ray Ray

Well-Known Member
Jan 15, 2018
816
2,946
Maybe we change the recovery work, some aspect of training, tweak some tactics?
I don't know, I'm not a sports injury expert, I'm just saying that there's not always someone or one thing to blame, there could be multiple factors that are causing the problem.

I'm not saying that the review isn't to find the causation but your post seemed to imply that it was looking to blame either Ange or the medical team, then tell whichever to leave.

There's definitely an element of bad luck, but also the tactics don't help either.

As with everything it's not fully to blame on one particular area, but surely 2/3 areas you mentioned in changing training loads, and tweaking tactics is something Ange could have implemented by now?

I think most of us have been calling for slight tactical tweaks for so long now, but it's just getting stubborn at this point from Ange to keep wedded to the exact same style of play, and then double down on it.

I think that's why I've probably lost faith in how this all turns round, as even prior to squad injuries we still had the same huge flaws in the system. It's the lack of learning and growth in a brand new league with better players that just suggests it doesn't matter what players we have, it's not going to change the fundamental flaws.
 

EastUpperDK82

Well-Known Member
Jan 16, 2022
4,029
8,376
Difference is that in that tactic, the ones sprinting are the forwards, who are more used to sprinting and usually don’t play the full 90 minutes. While CB are not used to sprinting all the time, they are heavier, and they usually play the full game
Fair points... let's just close it here 👍😏
 

Ossie85

Rio de la Plata
Aug 2, 2008
4,233
14,684
Ok and how does that compare to other teams then? Lets take a look, we all will of course assume we have much more than other teams.


Arsenal - 6
Brighton - 4
City - 5
Utd - 4

Nope actually, again, we are well in line with other teams in the league (we have 2 which seems fairly average).

What's next to hit him with?

Again, as I keep pointing out, the problem is not really the number of injuries (although that is obviously a problem) it is that we have so many out at the same time.
How many of those are defenders?
The argument about tactics being the cause of our hamstring injuries is with defenders. The rest are not so stretched as them.
 

mr ashley

Well-Known Member
Jan 27, 2011
3,576
9,667
I honestly wouldn’t be overly surprised if Frank and Silva would ether turn us down or be out of our budget. Same probably goes for Iraola tbh. I think the club would consider them tho, alongside names I’ve already mentioned im sure they would also look at Xavi, Potter (although I believe there is a history there), Bosz, Terzic (I really hope they don’t go down this path), Rose, Hütter etc.

Essentially I don’t think Levy and the club will have a clear idea or plan in mind and will do their usual scattergun search through every possible option before settling on one that ticks as many boxes as possible including the financial ones.
Seen others hype up Edin terzic, and obviously their CL run last season was hugely impressive. What puts you off about him?
 

HildoSpur

Likes Erik Lamela, deal with it.
Oct 1, 2005
11,193
37,057
Maybe the first time. But returning Romero and VDV earlier than expected to play against Chelsea and them getting injured again is surely not bad luck.
I'd say it is bad luck. Ange will have been guided by his medical team as to whether they were ready to play. Either the medical team got it wrong or it was bad luck. Neither reason is down to Ange .
 

rossdapep

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2011
24,980
93,827
I don't think it's just Ange, I think it might be time for football as a whole to look at this obsession with fitness and being fitter than the other teams. This "they run once a day so we'll run twice", "they run twice a day so we'll run three times" etc trend that seems to have come in over the last decade. It's such overkill now, there's never been so many injuries.

I couldn't give a shit about the multi-millionaire footballers being worked hard but I do care about the best players consistently missing games, the constant made up international tournaments and the generally abysmal quality of football where two extremely fit teams play eachother and we see zero technical quality.
The topic is broader and for another thread to get deep into it but you are absolutely on the money.

It does grate me when people like Simon Jordan say "They are paid to and should just get on with it" whilst ignoring that players train every day and we are all missing out cause we don't get to see as much flair and players at their very best
 

Ghost Hardware

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
21,772
86,506
Yeah as you mention it I did read somewhere that he has looked to evolve things and I was actually gonna ask you about the Liverpool game and see if he did leave 2 at the back.

I think it's something he does risk when the time is right but it's good to know he is flexible with it.

If Ange does go, it's utterly pointless going with someone the same or just as wedded to their main principle.

However, I absolutely don't want any pragmatic coach.

It does not suit us at all and never has.

Maybe if that coach shows some pragmatism in certain moments and it did work but not as any form of foundation.

What do you think to Iraola.

I've been really impressed with him and what he's doing at Bournemouth is similar to what Poch did at Southampton.

I know he likes wingers that are big for take ons and direct runs and he uses a double pivot. Think our back 4 would suit his approach too.

The only concern is that he does struggle more against low blocks and did so in Spain too. They'd get big scalps but then lose to a struggling team cause they couldn't break them down.

He's had a few draws and defeats against poor teams in the PL too - they lost to Leicester and Brentford.

They battered West Ham but couldnt get in front and were a free kick away to losing.

But then again, Poch had a terrible record at Southampton for losing games when going behind.

So perhaps it's the club he's a Mt and not necessarily his style.

Still, he'd be up against much more teams adopting a low block so I'd definitely see frustrating games.

Saw an interview with Fabregas who was raving about Iraola's training sessions.
I like Iraola a lot. I am very skeptical if we’d be able to get him, but he’s probably the best choice of those currently in the PL.

A big issue we will face with many attacking managers is our poor wingers. As you say Iraola likes his wide players to carry the ball into the box and put op FB/CB on the back foot. Where as Míchel likes his WF’s to invert Iraola prefers them to hold the width. Sometimes the FB’s will overlap but also sometimes they invert.
Point being I think we will suffer in a similar way as we are currently with our wingers being who they are. I really struggle to see Johnson working in his system and that goes for many attacking managers we would be looking at.

I think my biggest concern re Iraola is the lack of control. His teams seem to play very high intensity, they are very frenetic and rely on a varied approach to destabilise their opponents. That works when pushing for a goal but from what I’ve seen they struggle when more control and restraint is needed both when attacking and when In front.

This is partially why Iroala struggles against teams that park the bus as they are less inclined to allow themselves to be pulled around. They aren’t a methodical team and sometimes that is needed.

He has all the makings of a top class manager but I think he still needs to develop a bit more. He has a lot of good ideas but needs refining. I think his tactics would suit us but in an ideal world he’d still develop for another 2 or 3 years before making a move up. But beggars can’t be choosers.
 

Silky Skills

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2013
797
2,359
Guess what Wolves under their new guy look really efficient at... Diagonal out wide.
Biggest issue for me is that everyone knows how to play against us - other managers, the press, any random football fan you pass in the street, even those two individuals stuck up in the space station .................... yet our manager doesn't believe he needs to adapt the system
 

bobbof

Well-Known Member
Jan 31, 2011
968
1,946
Agree with everything.
I just want to add that he's not changing his full back tactic because it's what makes his attacking strategy work (sometimes). The full backs going forward from the inside creates more options for pass and the rival defenders can't cope. It's also the reason we struggle against the teams that park the bus. Our whole attacking strategy is to overload the attack. If the other team closes up the defense, compensating those extra players (full backs), our strategy becomes useless, and we don't know what to do. Which is what happened yesterday.
If he changes his full back strategy we will be shit in defense and offense. That is why he's not changing or adapting.
And this is exactly why wingers who could actually beat a man would do wonders for Ange and his tactics. And why I would give him time and a transfer window to fix things.
 

Oh Teddy Teddy

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2017
6,716
16,947
I'd say it is bad luck. Ange will have been guided by his medical team as to whether they were ready to play. Either the medical team got it wrong or it was bad luck. Neither reason is down to Ange .

Exactly this. When the agenda against Ange is intense enough, we can boil every issue we want down to the guy (injuries, tactics, individual performances and decisions), but the reality is always more nuanced — even if there is probably partial truth to the training/injury theory.

Perhaps the medical team begged him not to play VDV and Romero and he overruled, but we don’t know that. The likelihood is they were ruled to play, both had been training for a little while if I recall Ange’s press conferences around that time.
 
Last edited:

tevezito

In the cup for Tottingham
Jun 8, 2004
1,298
2,608
Exactly this. When the agenda against Ange is intense enough, we can boil every issue we want down to the guy (injuries, tactics, individual performances and decisions), but the reality is always more nuanced.

Perhaps the medical team begged him not to play VDV and Romero and he overruled, but we don’t know that. The likelihood is they were ruled to play, both had been training for a little while if I recall Ange’s press conferences around that time.
And Romero's was a freak injury caused by him deciding to do a back heel in his own penalty area - if you want to lay that at Ange's door, you clearly have an agenda. And then of course, the temptation was to play VDV a little longer than planned since Romero had gone off, and low and behold, 5 minutes later he goes down - that's pretty bad luck where I'm sitting.
 

MightySpurs

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2012
372
1,360
Indeed. It's not even got to be an accurate pass, it just has to be played into an area. It's a joke in all honesty.
Almost think it’s better if we concede a corner rather than a goal kick, with our “play out from the back at all costs” with the likes of forster, dragushin.
 

RuskyM

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2011
8,806
31,441
I like Iraola a lot. I am very skeptical if we’d be able to get him, but he’s probably the best choice of those currently in the PL.

A big issue we will face with many attacking managers is our poor wingers. As you say Iraola likes his wide players to carry the ball into the box and put op FB/CB on the back foot. Where as Míchel likes his WF’s to invert Iraola prefers them to hold the width. Sometimes the FB’s will overlap but also sometimes they invert.
Point being I think we will suffer in a similar way as we are currently with our wingers being who they are. I really struggle to see Johnson working in his system and that goes for many attacking managers we would be looking at.

I think my biggest concern re Iraola is the lack of control. His teams seem to play very high intensity, they are very frenetic and rely on a varied approach to destabilise their opponents. That works when pushing for a goal but from what I’ve seen they struggle when more control and restraint is needed both when attacking and when In front.

This is partially why Iroala struggles against teams that park the bus as they are less inclined to allow themselves to be pulled around. They aren’t a methodical team and sometimes that is needed.

He has all the makings of a top class manager but I think he still needs to develop a bit more. He has a lot of good ideas but needs refining. I think his tactics would suit us but in an ideal world he’d still develop for another 2 or 3 years before making a move up. But beggars can’t be choosers.
I think our wide players look worse right now cause they’ve got no rotation. Ideally, with our current squad Moore and Odobert would be offering alternatives - but a) having that much relying on teenagers and expecting to compete at the top is madness, and b) that only leaves us with Timo who’s obviously flawed. I think Johnson and Son can still be good players but you’d ideally have some alternatives than playing them over and over and over.
 

jezz

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2013
5,818
9,089
And Romero's was a freak injury caused by him deciding to do a back heel in his own penalty area - if you want to lay that at Ange's door, you clearly have an agenda. And then of course, the temptation was to play VDV a little longer than planned since Romero had gone off, and low and behold, 5 minutes later he goes down - that's pretty bad luck where I'm sitting.
Or maybe they weren't ready to play in that game and shouldn't have.
Who knows
 

E17yid

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2013
19,599
39,517
I'd say it is bad luck. Ange will have been guided by his medical team as to whether they were ready to play. Either the medical team got it wrong or it was bad luck. Neither reason is down to Ange .
So Ange is wrong when he says it’s mainly not bad luck?

Is there any chance in your mind he could even be just partly responsible? Especially considering he’s told us it’s not bad luck?
 

McFlash

Without doubt the dumbest & most clueless member.
Oct 19, 2005
15,512
59,416
A more mature and measured response this time :happy: - again apols for the last one!

- Agree on Spence. Must be attitude. This came up at Norwich I think. Hopefully he’s knuckled down now but should have been given a chance to swap with (or at least come on for) Porro when he could.

- while I agree dragu was the 3rd CB, he could have been given the odd game (not EL) to ease the workload on VdV and Romero. How can he adjust to the EPL if he’s not given a chance. Although now, he’s thrust in and can’t get a rest himself (and surprise has broken down).

- Moore, understood he’s 17 - so was Rooney. Shame he saw minutes a bit too late in this season as it was clear in pre season he was a gem. He’s only started one game, away at a tough Selhurst Park.

- Bergvall no maybe not expecting to get many minutes, but I was with Grey. He had a full season in the championship, looked capable of the step up and cost £40m!

- again understood that Dorrington is unproven but surely he could have made a fee more mins on the pitch in the EL or the end of EPL games that were sown up (Villa, Wet Spam). How can he ever cover if we hardly see him.

- re: Veliz, he did need a loan, I agree BUT it was clear last season Richy can’t be relied on. And he even had injury issues in the summer. I worry about Solanke breaking down with the work he puts in, and Son isn’t the answer as cover.

I don’t generally disagree with you, however when you’re faced with starting a season with a squad already a bit thin, our injury record last season with Ange’s tactics and our current crisis, these players could and should have seen more minutes in my opinion

cheers
Spence was the stand out omission for me really because we know he's got talent, he's the right age and we were crying out to rest either Udogie or Porro.

But none of his loans were that great, apart from maybe his final one.
Iirc he even got sent back early from Leeds after an impressive start.
In fact, I think he started well at most of them but then something happened and it petered out.

I do think that maybe a switch has finally clicked and his maturity has kicked in, that's probably why Ange praised both the player and coaches recently.

Dorrington was just really unlucky with his injury and it's taken a while for him to get back up to speed.
He did get some minutes the other day and he'll be in the bench at least tomorrow but he's only got a handful of games in the past years or so, so it's a big ask for him to step up now.
 

RuskyM

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2011
8,806
31,441
Seen others hype up Edin terzic, and obviously their CL run last season was hugely impressive. What puts you off about him?
He’s really not very good. Nice bloke, nice story with him being a Dortmund fan, but Dortmund were underwhelming last season and he was publicly questioned by Hummels a week or so before the final for his nous. His main redeeming quality to some will be that he’s not Ange, but that kind of thinking will just have us here again in 12 months.
 
Top