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Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

Ange In or Ange Out?

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D

Deleted member 13663

I'd be surprised if Levy isn't getting twitchy if we lose to forest.

The loss to Liverpool was AVB sacking bad.
 

carpediem1906

COYS singapore spurs
Sep 3, 2011
953
3,108
I really don't think fans can be blamed for losing faith tbh.
Most of us were prepared to be patient and for a rebuild.
What we weren't prepared for is being a fucking laughing stock.
It's not just other fans, the media are going with it now also.
This is enlightening, cos going by the vocabulary chosen, one of the big reasons why there’s so much reacting going on even after an expected big loss is becos people hate experiencing shame

Doesn’t help that
1) the football team you support conceding 6 goals at home which leads to
2) being mocked by friends and strangers alike and also
3) being ridiculed in public and online

perhaps more should learn to disassociate

“Soul, if you want to learn secrets,
 your heart must forget about shame
 and dignity. You are God’s lover,
 yet you worry what people are saying.”
 

carpediem1906

COYS singapore spurs
Sep 3, 2011
953
3,108
He had Davies and Dragusin at CB v City?

And if he only has to play who is fit then why not try and give them something to work with rather than leaving them to get exposed every time the ball comes forward.

Use what you have at your disposal and make the best or try to make the best of what is a tough situation, rather than being stubborn and getting battered.

Again, this isn't just true to football, it's true to a manager of any team in any job.
You are so upset at a man you don’t know personally not making the changes you want and expect.

instead of listening and paying attention to what he had, has and will keep saying about him not changing.

expectations vs reality.

You, and many others, seem very very unwilling to change your own expectations and demand reality to meet and suit yours.

isn’t this a very tiring way to live?
 

spurs mental

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2007
28,328
60,432
You are so upset at a man you don’t know personally not making the changes you want and expect.

instead of listening and paying attention to what he had, has and will keep saying about him not changing.

expectations vs reality.

You, and many others, seem very very unwilling to change your own expectations and demand reality to meet and suit yours.

isn’t this a very tiring way to live?
I'm not upset. I'm giving my opinion.

Despite what he might say, it doesn't mean I have to listen and agree with him.

What a weird post.

Suggest maybe reading the rest of the thread and my other comments to see what I mean by adapting.
 
Last edited:

fishhhandaricecake

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2018
23,389
58,908
But that was the fab 5 season, after signing Dumitrescu and Klinsmann.
Ah yes fair well in that season he lasted until November 1st, won 5, drew 2, lost 5.

20 August 1994Sheffield WednesdayA4–334,051Sheringham, Anderton, Barmby, Klinsmann
24 August 1994EvertonH2–124,553Klinsmann(2)
27 August 1994Manchester UnitedH0–124,502
30 August 1994Ipswich TownA3–122,559Klinsmann(2), Dumitrescu
12 September 1994SouthamptonH1–222,387Klinsmann
17 September 1994Leicester CityA1–321,300Klinsmann
24 September 1994Nottingham ForestH1–424,558Dumitrescu
1 October 1994WimbledonA2–116,802Sheringham, Popescu
8 October 1994Queens Park RangersH1–125,799Barmby
15 October 1994Leeds UnitedA1–139,362Sheringham
22 October 1994Manchester CityA2–525,473Dumitrescu(2, 1 pen)
29 October 1994West Ham UnitedH3–126,271Klinsmann, Sheringham, Barmby

 

carpediem1906

COYS singapore spurs
Sep 3, 2011
953
3,108
Same old pointless argument again though of going to extremes to make a point no one is arguing. We aren't asking for a seismic shift in philosophy or formation. For example just hold one of the fullbacks from playing on the opponents 18 yard line or sit the CB's 5-10 yards deeper is the type of changes we are asking for, just not be so bloody open. To just sit on the game for 5 minutes after a turning point or when the opposition is putting us under the cosh would make a huge difference in some games. Nobody and I mean NOBODY is asking him to go back to the drawing board here.
Your post here on surface makes so much sense (and that’s why it’s gotten so many positive reactions) but is actually prejudiced

The way you put it, it’s as if Ange intentionally tells the players to do the stupid things and that players have no power or control or decision making process to assess the situation and respond accordingly.

You are probably very old school in the sense that coaches must bark out instructions from the touchline constantly - like playing fifa - do this, do that, change this change that

2 case studies and Ange explained both
1) against Man U, we conceded 2 because of Forster and journalists grilled Ange that it’s because of his principles, and actually it was countered. Biss should have passed forward, Archie took responsibility, it’s decisions that caused the problems, not tactics or principles.
2) this is a lesser cited example but cos I was there live I remember this well, when Cuti took it upon himself to press high and forced the mistake off Raya and scored against Arsenal at home.

I remember Ange praising the initiative and proactiveness, and that it wasn’t an instruction but Cuti acting out of instinct

Managers set the principle and intention, but players execute the game plan

And yes, before I get slaughtered, great coaches and managers tweak in game changes that make a difference. We all know that. No one is disputing that.

but to always demand or question or over analyse why no tweaks in those specific 2-3 min segments?

should it be understood by all players and coaching staff who has ever played or watched the game?

to claim that its instructions by our coaches to be “naive” in that 2 mins before half time is just weird

someone posted pages back, djed probably saw a bad touch and Trent facing his own goal as cue to press. also probably driven by over eagerness to impress or counter.

did he need to be so high up at that point in time? Probably not.

Who’s to blame for him being there?
himself?
Sonny?
rest of team mates esp centre backs or centre mids who didn’t hold him back to positional discipline?
there’s so many fingers that can be pointed but you keep insisting that this is on Ange

why?
 

jolsnogross

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2005
4,213
6,612
This is enlightening, cos going by the vocabulary chosen, one of the big reasons why there’s so much reacting going on even after an expected big loss is becos people hate experiencing shame

Doesn’t help that
1) the football team you support conceding 6 goals at home which leads to
2) being mocked by friends and strangers alike and also
3) being ridiculed in public and online

perhaps more should learn to disassociate

“Soul, if you want to learn secrets,
 your heart must forget about shame
 and dignity. You are God’s lover,
 yet you worry what people are saying.”
You're spot on about this. It's very petty to feel shame and loathing in relation to banter and tv/online analysis of a footy team you have no control over. It's pitiful actually. Those folks should please grow up.

But, it's also enlightening for you to say "even after an expected big loss". That's a major fobbing off of something that should never happen to a footy team as well established and wealthy as ours. Showing up pre-beaten to games is unacceptable for a top footy team. Showing up to be expectedly heavily beaten even more so.

Things are going drastically wrong. There's a growing lack of control on and off the pitch. Whether injuries and luck have anything to do with it, the manager will be the first to pay for it if he doesn't turn it around soon.
 

greaves

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2006
7,188
11,385
FWIW, there’s a nicely coruscating mail (about the treatment of Postecoglou) by someone called Matt on the football 365 website. Worth a read if only for the indignation at media/pundit-heads… Happy Christmas/season’s greetings and here’s to a better year ahead.
 

-Afri-Coy-

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2012
6,329
20,616
Your post here on surface makes so much sense (and that’s why it’s gotten so many positive reactions) but is actually prejudiced

The way you put it, it’s as if Ange intentionally tells the players to do the stupid things and that players have no power or control or decision making process to assess the situation and respond accordingly.

You are probably very old school in the sense that coaches must bark out instructions from the touchline constantly - like playing fifa - do this, do that, change this change that

2 case studies and Ange explained both
1) against Man U, we conceded 2 because of Forster and journalists grilled Ange that it’s because of his principles, and actually it was countered. Biss should have passed forward, Archie took responsibility, it’s decisions that caused the problems, not tactics or principles.
2) this is a lesser cited example but cos I was there live I remember this well, when Cuti took it upon himself to press high and forced the mistake off Raya and scored against Arsenal at home.

I remember Ange praising the initiative and proactiveness, and that it wasn’t an instruction but Cuti acting out of instinct

Managers set the principle and intention, but players execute the game plan

And yes, before I get slaughtered, great coaches and managers tweak in game changes that make a difference. We all know that. No one is disputing that.

but to always demand or question or over analyse why no tweaks in those specific 2-3 min segments?

should it be understood by all players and coaching staff who has ever played or watched the game?

to claim that its instructions by our coaches to be “naive” in that 2 mins before half time is just weird

someone posted pages back, djed probably saw a bad touch and Trent facing his own goal as cue to press. also probably driven by over eagerness to impress or counter.

did he need to be so high up at that point in time? Probably not.

Who’s to blame for him being there?
himself?
Sonny?
rest of team mates esp centre backs or centre mids who didn’t hold him back to positional discipline?
there’s so many fingers that can be pointed but you keep insisting that this is on Ange

why?

The system, in itself, is flawed.

Forster, against United, showed a tactical flaw in playing out from the back. His decision making is influenced by the tactics and philosophy instilled in him during training. It’s a personal mistake, caused by instruction. Playing out from the back under an intense press, with players who aren’t naturally good on the ball, invites mistakes.

Cuti’s decision making was instinctual, the influence in this scenario can be attributed to the tactics instilled or his own decision making, but it’s more likely his own accord. It’s a rare occurrence, no manager tells their centres back’s to make decisions like that.

Djed’s scenario would be a mix of both of the above. He was in the position due to tactics, but the decision isn’t tactical. It’s a personal decision.

whether it’s a mistake or happy coincidence, the philosophy has an impact on it.

The same problem arose under Conte with the pragmatic approach/philosophy. You can’t expect players to defend perfectly for 90 minutes. There will be mistakes. A lapse in concentration will cost you goals, and ultimately the game.
 

carpediem1906

COYS singapore spurs
Sep 3, 2011
953
3,108
FWIW, there’s a nicely coruscating mail (about the treatment of Postecoglou) by someone called Matt on the football 365 website. Worth a read if only for the indignation at media/pundit-heads… Happy Christmas/season’s greetings and here’s to a better year ahead.
Copy and pasted 👇🏻

I’m loving Big Ange instead
You know, reading all this dross from the other side of the world about Ange’s need for a “Plan B”, playing kamikaze football, being out of his depth, I had to bite. I’ve read about Ange’s shortcomings for well over a decade now. He proves you all wrong time and time again.

Ange had trouble in the 2000s as the coach of the Joeys, Australia’s national team youth side. And at the end of that dark tunnel, he made a promise to a close friend and colleague: enough compromise, I’m sticking to my principles. This lead to success at ‘Roarcelona’, the Socceroos, Yokohama and Celtic. Mickey Mouse you say? I’d love to see the credentials of Sir Alex and Arsene pre-EPL. I’d also love to see the “winning” English managers have achieved. So why should he listen to you or your pundits? You can’t even win your own league.

It is from sticking to his principles that he has made it to Tottenham. For all those Spurs fans that have short memories (*cough* the regulars of certain youtube channels *cough*), the Spurs’ motto is “Audere est Facere”. To dare is to do. We lost this under Poch’s final season, Mourinho, Nuno and Conte. Turgid, dire football, relying on Kane and Son to pull us through it all. I really enjoyed waking up at 3am on a Monday to watch that utter garbage.

Now no Kane, an older Son. Here is a manager willing to commit to breaking a mental fragility at a club so unwilling to change. To do so with significant contraints in his squad depth. A man who has an identity of attacking football, something Spurs fans (again, very short memories) have begged for for years. Danny Blanchflower would be disgusted by these “fans”. Quick reminder to those that have forgotten: “The great fallacy is that the game is first and last about winning. It is nothing of the kind. The game is about glory, it is about doing things in style and with a flourish, about going out and beating the other lot, not waiting for them to die of boredom.” Take that from someone who was actually successful at Tottenham. Sounds like Danny was almost exactly describing Ange…

Argue to a brick wall about Plan Bs and being pragmatic, it’s a loser mentality. The THST were a joke, ready to ‘explain’ to Ange about the importance of Arsenal losing the league. Like he hadn’t just come from the Old Firm derby, a rivalry beyond the football pitch. Again, the English thinking they know best. Lsoer mentality. But what Ange can do right now, is build the right mindset. Make the impossible happen, and transform the club’s relationship with success.

A Plan B like a low block does nothing for the club’s future. Nothing for the players like Bergvall and Gray who will be there for years to come. To play on the front foot even when the going gets tough, means these players won’t retreat, they won’t hide, when the games matter. When success is within reach. They will take the game to anyone. Don’t lie to me: you all saw the score from 1-5 to 3-5 and thought “no way, but maybe?”

On the game: Liverpool have no injuries, insane depth everywhere on the pitch, an extra day of rest, and are the clear best in England and Europe. What did you expect? Just defend for your lives? Sorry, the manager doesn’t believe in you guys. Give up before the first whistle and know your place. Be losers before the game even begins. Seems like the message from the pundits and some Spurs fans (those at the ground were brilliant).

The moment Ange strays from his principles, it’s over. That’s not what the club needs in this revolution. It needs the strongest will in the darkest night. No matter the difficulty, the injury toll, the lack of squad depth, Tottenham Hotspur have to believe they can still beat anyone, anytime, anywhere. Once the team is ready to compete with personnel, the mentality will already be there, ready to take this club to another level. Ange is trying to eradicate the English from Tottenham, and build an unwavering belief that the team can win no matter the circumstance.

Oh, and F365. Utter gutter journalism. The constant use of derogatory terms for a team with about 10 injuries, a (correct) ban for racism, signings that reflect more a child labour camp than a football club, and only now rebuilding when a rebuild was required 5 years ago. You yearn for personalities, for points of difference in this league. Bemoan likeness amongst teams. Yet write utter dross time and time again about a guy who won’t waiver over his beliefs in how to lead a team. I can’t imagine the rubbish you would have written about Gasperini at Atalanta when his attacking football resulted in crazy scorelines. That would be if I can even read beyond the 40 pop-ups and ads on your website.

Do better.
Matt
 

carpediem1906

COYS singapore spurs
Sep 3, 2011
953
3,108
You're spot on about this. It's very petty to feel shame and loathing in relation to banter and tv/online analysis of a footy team you have no control over. It's pitiful actually. Those folks should please grow up.

But, it's also enlightening for you to say "even after an expected big loss". That's a major fobbing off of something that should never happen to a footy team as well established and wealthy as ours. Showing up pre-beaten to games is unacceptable for a top footy team. Showing up to be expectedly heavily beaten even more so.

Things are going drastically wrong. There's a growing lack of control on and off the pitch. Whether injuries and luck have anything to do with it, the manager will be the first to pay for it if he doesn't turn it around soon.
Precisely as Matt posted in football 365 (post above)

Ange’s message to the players was probably “we go for it. We can do them”

but as fans we knew that if we have to get pummelled, as we r wont to do, then this is probably the game - them better n fresher, fixture congestion, squad situation, would rather beat Man U in quarters etc etc - I believe this was the “off pass” the coaching staff and players get

Ange kept talking about growth during this period and when smoother water returns and it will, we will all benefit, he even joked that the next manager will really really benefit from Archie (and that the coaching staff didn’t plan for the young ones to play this much).

this period is our canon event

#coyfs
 

carpediem1906

COYS singapore spurs
Sep 3, 2011
953
3,108
The system, in itself, is flawed.

Forster, against United, showed a tactical flaw in playing out from the back. His decision making is influenced by the tactics and philosophy instilled in him during training. It’s a personal mistake, caused by instruction. Playing out from the back under an intense press, with players who aren’t naturally good on the ball, invites mistakes.

Cuti’s decision making was instinctual, the influence in this scenario can be attributed to the tactics instilled or his own decision making, but it’s more likely his own accord. It’s a rare occurrence, no manager tells their centres back’s to make decisions like that.

Djed’s scenario would be a mix of both of the above. He was in the position due to tactics, but the decision isn’t tactical. It’s a personal decision.

whether it’s a mistake or happy coincidence, the philosophy has an impact on it.

The same problem arose under Conte with the pragmatic approach/philosophy. You can’t expect players to defend perfectly for 90 minutes. There will be mistakes. A lapse in concentration will cost you goals, and ultimately the game.
Love a balanced perspective, tis rare in here.

And love that u ended with the conte eg - because somehow, pundits, commentators, fans (I’m guilty of it live during matches myself) all expect players to be flawless, make and execute the best options - but like Ange said, we are all humans, and we will make mistakes

but his growth period point is that we will learn, we will grow, and given time, we will master and weed out poor decisions and improve. His job is to give the players the platform to do so.

so yes the system is flawed as all systems are, they all require players to play their part

I’d much rather (personally) watch us lose 3-6 at home than to have to watch PEH play backwards for the 100th time even when we are chasing games and then because we are chasing games, defenders push up leaving holes for counters and then going on to concede late goals

so many on here, trix included, will counter that they are not calling ange to become conte but just to tweak the defensive aspect.

how many times did ange bring peh on to close out games last season when available? While also substituting the wingers or striker or full backs or centre mids so as to still be able to score goals as opponents seek to come back.

this period of time, he never had that luxury!

and people kept using inconsistent form, stats like 20th defensively in Dec, esp the pain and embarrassment (self inflicted) of conceding 6 and possibly more at home last game before Christmas (and hence becoming the Christmas joke of the epl - which btw, should really be conferred on either Manchester clubs but media bias hey ho)

We forget that prior to 3-6 gate, we have never lost a match THIS season by more than a single goal.

but people don’t seem to want context, don’t seem to want to understand, don’t seem to know that coaches and footballers are not robots that will do no wrong.

Culture is hardest to change, and system may be flawed, but if it changes culture, the future is going to be better and stronger
 

jolsnogross

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2005
4,213
6,612
Love a balanced perspective, tis rare in here.

And love that u ended with the conte eg - because somehow, pundits, commentators, fans (I’m guilty of it live during matches myself) all expect players to be flawless, make and execute the best options - but like Ange said, we are all humans, and we will make mistakes

but his growth period point is that we will learn, we will grow, and given time, we will master and weed out poor decisions and improve. His job is to give the players the platform to do so.

so yes the system is flawed as all systems are, they all require players to play their part

I’d much rather (personally) watch us lose 3-6 at home than to have to watch PEH play backwards for the 100th time even when we are chasing games and then because we are chasing games, defenders push up leaving holes for counters and then going on to concede late goals

so many on here, trix included, will counter that they are not calling ange to become conte but just to tweak the defensive aspect.

how many times did ange bring peh on to close out games last season when available? While also substituting the wingers or striker or full backs or centre mids so as to still be able to score goals as opponents seek to come back.

this period of time, he never had that luxury!

and people kept using inconsistent form, stats like 20th defensively in Dec, esp the pain and embarrassment (self inflicted) of conceding 6 and possibly more at home last game before Christmas (and hence becoming the Christmas joke of the epl - which btw, should really be conferred on either Manchester clubs but media bias hey ho)

We forget that prior to 3-6 gate, we have never lost a match THIS season by more than a single goal.

but people don’t seem to want context, don’t seem to want to understand, don’t seem to know that coaches and footballers are not robots that will do no wrong.

Culture is hardest to change, and system may be flawed, but if it changes culture, the future is going to be better and stronger
The culture doesn't look like it's changing though. We look more soft centered than ever. Not less. If it wasn't for Ange's talk during press conferences, you'd not be buying it either.

Glad to hear the optimistic point of view. Hopefully we hit those calmer waters. But he's well into his tenure now and I'm concerned he backs too many soft players; he's not very dynamic within a game; and the players look to be doing manic and stupid things rather than displaying new strong and good habits.

Be interesting to see who he/they bring in in January and whether those calm waters arrive.
 

DaiT

Well-Known Member
Jan 29, 2011
434
871
Love a balanced perspective, tis rare in here.

And love that u ended with the conte eg - because somehow, pundits, commentators, fans (I’m guilty of it live during matches myself) all expect players to be flawless, make and execute the best options - but like Ange said, we are all humans, and we will make mistakes

but his growth period point is that we will learn, we will grow, and given time, we will master and weed out poor decisions and improve. His job is to give the players the platform to do so.

so yes the system is flawed as all systems are, they all require players to play their part

I’d much rather (personally) watch us lose 3-6 at home than to have to watch PEH play backwards for the 100th time even when we are chasing games and then because we are chasing games, defenders push up leaving holes for counters and then going on to concede late goals

so many on here, trix included, will counter that they are not calling ange to become conte but just to tweak the defensive aspect.

how many times did ange bring peh on to close out games last season when available? While also substituting the wingers or striker or full backs or centre mids so as to still be able to score goals as opponents seek to come back.

this period of time, he never had that luxury!

and people kept using inconsistent form, stats like 20th defensively in Dec, esp the pain and embarrassment (self inflicted) of conceding 6 and possibly more at home last game before Christmas (and hence becoming the Christmas joke of the epl - which btw, should really be conferred on either Manchester clubs but media bias hey ho)

We forget that prior to 3-6 gate, we have never lost a match THIS season by more than a single goal.

but people don’t seem to want context, don’t seem to want to understand, don’t seem to know that coaches and footballers are not robots that will do no wrong.

Culture is hardest to change, and system may be flawed, but if it changes culture, the future is going to be better and stronger
I wish I had written that.
I just dont want to go back to AVB, Jose or Conte.
Give Ange another 18 months.
 

Gassin's finest

C'est diabolique
May 12, 2010
41,064
99,917
Lost it under Pochs final season? That season was the very definition of audere est facere.

And of course gung ho football against leagues where defences are barely existent and goalkeepers can be beaten if you aim roughly anywhere to either side of them is going to work. Celtic?? Brendan Rogers and Martin O'Neil can be legendary managers there ffs.

This isn't premiership arrogance, this "football" wouldn't work in most European leagues... try it in La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga... wouldn't last 5 minutes.

Just admit that there are levels, and Ange ain't at this one.
 

Trix

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2004
22,679
373,283
Lost it under Pochs final season? That season was the very definition of audere est facere.

And of course gung ho football against leagues where defences are barely existent and goalkeepers can be beaten if you aim roughly anywhere to either side of them is going to work. Celtic?? Brendan Rogers and Martin O'Neil can be legendary managers there ffs.

This isn't premiership arrogance, this "football" wouldn't work in most European leagues... try it in La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga... wouldn't last 5 minutes.

Just admit that there are levels, and Ange ain't at this one.
I can understand why there are many on here saying he needs time and are quoting Klopp, Pep and even Arteta as examples of how a philosophy manager can build a successful team in their image given time.

I'm very much with you though in that this particular philosophy will never be as successful as those managers quoted as it's just too open, and at this level the opposition will exploit that too much. I am also firmly of the belief he will never get that purpose built squad anyway, so getting better than we currently are is about as far as we will get under Ange. Capable of incredible results, both good and bad.
 

Gassin's finest

C'est diabolique
May 12, 2010
41,064
99,917
Love a balanced perspective, tis rare in here.

And love that u ended with the conte eg - because somehow, pundits, commentators, fans (I’m guilty of it live during matches myself) all expect players to be flawless, make and execute the best options - but like Ange said, we are all humans, and we will make mistakes

but his growth period point is that we will learn, we will grow, and given time, we will master and weed out poor decisions and improve. His job is to give the players the platform to do so.

so yes the system is flawed as all systems are, they all require players to play their part

I’d much rather (personally) watch us lose 3-6 at home than to have to watch PEH play backwards for the 100th time even when we are chasing games and then because we are chasing games, defenders push up leaving holes for counters and then going on to concede late goals

so many on here, trix included, will counter that they are not calling ange to become conte but just to tweak the defensive aspect.

how many times did ange bring peh on to close out games last season when available? While also substituting the wingers or striker or full backs or centre mids so as to still be able to score goals as opponents seek to come back.

this period of time, he never had that luxury!

and people kept using inconsistent form, stats like 20th defensively in Dec, esp the pain and embarrassment (self inflicted) of conceding 6 and possibly more at home last game before Christmas (and hence becoming the Christmas joke of the epl - which btw, should really be conferred on either Manchester clubs but media bias hey ho)

We forget that prior to 3-6 gate, we have never lost a match THIS season by more than a single goal.

but people don’t seem to want context, don’t seem to want to understand, don’t seem to know that coaches and footballers are not robots that will do no wrong.

Culture is hardest to change, and system may be flawed, but if it changes culture, the future is going to be better and stronger
But now we do that all the time...
 
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