- Aug 25, 2010
- 58,701
- 114,392
Yeah, I agree. I think 0-1 points from our next 3 could well see him gone but I really don’t think that we’ll do that bad from the next 3 games.
Think we'll take 4-6 points from those three.
Yeah, I agree. I think 0-1 points from our next 3 could well see him gone but I really don’t think that we’ll do that bad from the next 3 games.
This is enlightening, cos going by the vocabulary chosen, one of the big reasons why there’s so much reacting going on even after an expected big loss is becos people hate experiencing shameI really don't think fans can be blamed for losing faith tbh.
Most of us were prepared to be patient and for a rebuild.
What we weren't prepared for is being a fucking laughing stock.
It's not just other fans, the media are going with it now also.
You are so upset at a man you don’t know personally not making the changes you want and expect.He had Davies and Dragusin at CB v City?
And if he only has to play who is fit then why not try and give them something to work with rather than leaving them to get exposed every time the ball comes forward.
Use what you have at your disposal and make the best or try to make the best of what is a tough situation, rather than being stubborn and getting battered.
Again, this isn't just true to football, it's true to a manager of any team in any job.
I think we will, but let’s see.Think we'll take 4-6 points from those three.
I'm not upset. I'm giving my opinion.You are so upset at a man you don’t know personally not making the changes you want and expect.
instead of listening and paying attention to what he had, has and will keep saying about him not changing.
expectations vs reality.
You, and many others, seem very very unwilling to change your own expectations and demand reality to meet and suit yours.
isn’t this a very tiring way to live?
But that was the fab 5 season, after signing Dumitrescu and Klinsmann.In his 2nd season yes.
Ah yes fair well in that season he lasted until November 1st, won 5, drew 2, lost 5.But that was the fab 5 season, after signing Dumitrescu and Klinsmann.
20 August 1994 | Sheffield Wednesday | A | 4–3 | 34,051 | Sheringham, Anderton, Barmby, Klinsmann |
24 August 1994 | Everton | H | 2–1 | 24,553 | Klinsmann(2) |
27 August 1994 | Manchester United | H | 0–1 | 24,502 | |
30 August 1994 | Ipswich Town | A | 3–1 | 22,559 | Klinsmann(2), Dumitrescu |
12 September 1994 | Southampton | H | 1–2 | 22,387 | Klinsmann |
17 September 1994 | Leicester City | A | 1–3 | 21,300 | Klinsmann |
24 September 1994 | Nottingham Forest | H | 1–4 | 24,558 | Dumitrescu |
1 October 1994 | Wimbledon | A | 2–1 | 16,802 | Sheringham, Popescu |
8 October 1994 | Queens Park Rangers | H | 1–1 | 25,799 | Barmby |
15 October 1994 | Leeds United | A | 1–1 | 39,362 | Sheringham |
22 October 1994 | Manchester City | A | 2–5 | 25,473 | Dumitrescu(2, 1 pen) |
29 October 1994 | West Ham United | H | 3–1 | 26,271 | Klinsmann, Sheringham, Barmby |
Your post here on surface makes so much sense (and that’s why it’s gotten so many positive reactions) but is actually prejudicedSame old pointless argument again though of going to extremes to make a point no one is arguing. We aren't asking for a seismic shift in philosophy or formation. For example just hold one of the fullbacks from playing on the opponents 18 yard line or sit the CB's 5-10 yards deeper is the type of changes we are asking for, just not be so bloody open. To just sit on the game for 5 minutes after a turning point or when the opposition is putting us under the cosh would make a huge difference in some games. Nobody and I mean NOBODY is asking him to go back to the drawing board here.
You're spot on about this. It's very petty to feel shame and loathing in relation to banter and tv/online analysis of a footy team you have no control over. It's pitiful actually. Those folks should please grow up.This is enlightening, cos going by the vocabulary chosen, one of the big reasons why there’s so much reacting going on even after an expected big loss is becos people hate experiencing shame
Doesn’t help that
1) the football team you support conceding 6 goals at home which leads to
2) being mocked by friends and strangers alike and also
3) being ridiculed in public and online
perhaps more should learn to disassociate
“Soul, if you want to learn secrets, your heart must forget about shame and dignity. You are God’s lover, yet you worry what people are saying.”
Your post here on surface makes so much sense (and that’s why it’s gotten so many positive reactions) but is actually prejudiced
The way you put it, it’s as if Ange intentionally tells the players to do the stupid things and that players have no power or control or decision making process to assess the situation and respond accordingly.
You are probably very old school in the sense that coaches must bark out instructions from the touchline constantly - like playing fifa - do this, do that, change this change that
2 case studies and Ange explained both
1) against Man U, we conceded 2 because of Forster and journalists grilled Ange that it’s because of his principles, and actually it was countered. Biss should have passed forward, Archie took responsibility, it’s decisions that caused the problems, not tactics or principles.
2) this is a lesser cited example but cos I was there live I remember this well, when Cuti took it upon himself to press high and forced the mistake off Raya and scored against Arsenal at home.
I remember Ange praising the initiative and proactiveness, and that it wasn’t an instruction but Cuti acting out of instinct
Managers set the principle and intention, but players execute the game plan
And yes, before I get slaughtered, great coaches and managers tweak in game changes that make a difference. We all know that. No one is disputing that.
but to always demand or question or over analyse why no tweaks in those specific 2-3 min segments?
should it be understood by all players and coaching staff who has ever played or watched the game?
to claim that its instructions by our coaches to be “naive” in that 2 mins before half time is just weird
someone posted pages back, djed probably saw a bad touch and Trent facing his own goal as cue to press. also probably driven by over eagerness to impress or counter.
did he need to be so high up at that point in time? Probably not.
Who’s to blame for him being there?
himself?
Sonny?
rest of team mates esp centre backs or centre mids who didn’t hold him back to positional discipline?
there’s so many fingers that can be pointed but you keep insisting that this is on Ange
why?
Copy and pastedFWIW, there’s a nicely coruscating mail (about the treatment of Postecoglou) by someone called Matt on the football 365 website. Worth a read if only for the indignation at media/pundit-heads… Happy Christmas/season’s greetings and here’s to a better year ahead.
Precisely as Matt posted in football 365 (post above)You're spot on about this. It's very petty to feel shame and loathing in relation to banter and tv/online analysis of a footy team you have no control over. It's pitiful actually. Those folks should please grow up.
But, it's also enlightening for you to say "even after an expected big loss". That's a major fobbing off of something that should never happen to a footy team as well established and wealthy as ours. Showing up pre-beaten to games is unacceptable for a top footy team. Showing up to be expectedly heavily beaten even more so.
Things are going drastically wrong. There's a growing lack of control on and off the pitch. Whether injuries and luck have anything to do with it, the manager will be the first to pay for it if he doesn't turn it around soon.
Love a balanced perspective, tis rare in here.The system, in itself, is flawed.
Forster, against United, showed a tactical flaw in playing out from the back. His decision making is influenced by the tactics and philosophy instilled in him during training. It’s a personal mistake, caused by instruction. Playing out from the back under an intense press, with players who aren’t naturally good on the ball, invites mistakes.
Cuti’s decision making was instinctual, the influence in this scenario can be attributed to the tactics instilled or his own decision making, but it’s more likely his own accord. It’s a rare occurrence, no manager tells their centres back’s to make decisions like that.
Djed’s scenario would be a mix of both of the above. He was in the position due to tactics, but the decision isn’t tactical. It’s a personal decision.
whether it’s a mistake or happy coincidence, the philosophy has an impact on it.
The same problem arose under Conte with the pragmatic approach/philosophy. You can’t expect players to defend perfectly for 90 minutes. There will be mistakes. A lapse in concentration will cost you goals, and ultimately the game.
The culture doesn't look like it's changing though. We look more soft centered than ever. Not less. If it wasn't for Ange's talk during press conferences, you'd not be buying it either.Love a balanced perspective, tis rare in here.
And love that u ended with the conte eg - because somehow, pundits, commentators, fans (I’m guilty of it live during matches myself) all expect players to be flawless, make and execute the best options - but like Ange said, we are all humans, and we will make mistakes
but his growth period point is that we will learn, we will grow, and given time, we will master and weed out poor decisions and improve. His job is to give the players the platform to do so.
so yes the system is flawed as all systems are, they all require players to play their part
I’d much rather (personally) watch us lose 3-6 at home than to have to watch PEH play backwards for the 100th time even when we are chasing games and then because we are chasing games, defenders push up leaving holes for counters and then going on to concede late goals
so many on here, trix included, will counter that they are not calling ange to become conte but just to tweak the defensive aspect.
how many times did ange bring peh on to close out games last season when available? While also substituting the wingers or striker or full backs or centre mids so as to still be able to score goals as opponents seek to come back.
this period of time, he never had that luxury!
and people kept using inconsistent form, stats like 20th defensively in Dec, esp the pain and embarrassment (self inflicted) of conceding 6 and possibly more at home last game before Christmas (and hence becoming the Christmas joke of the epl - which btw, should really be conferred on either Manchester clubs but media bias hey ho)
We forget that prior to 3-6 gate, we have never lost a match THIS season by more than a single goal.
but people don’t seem to want context, don’t seem to want to understand, don’t seem to know that coaches and footballers are not robots that will do no wrong.
Culture is hardest to change, and system may be flawed, but if it changes culture, the future is going to be better and stronger
I wish I had written that.Love a balanced perspective, tis rare in here.
And love that u ended with the conte eg - because somehow, pundits, commentators, fans (I’m guilty of it live during matches myself) all expect players to be flawless, make and execute the best options - but like Ange said, we are all humans, and we will make mistakes
but his growth period point is that we will learn, we will grow, and given time, we will master and weed out poor decisions and improve. His job is to give the players the platform to do so.
so yes the system is flawed as all systems are, they all require players to play their part
I’d much rather (personally) watch us lose 3-6 at home than to have to watch PEH play backwards for the 100th time even when we are chasing games and then because we are chasing games, defenders push up leaving holes for counters and then going on to concede late goals
so many on here, trix included, will counter that they are not calling ange to become conte but just to tweak the defensive aspect.
how many times did ange bring peh on to close out games last season when available? While also substituting the wingers or striker or full backs or centre mids so as to still be able to score goals as opponents seek to come back.
this period of time, he never had that luxury!
and people kept using inconsistent form, stats like 20th defensively in Dec, esp the pain and embarrassment (self inflicted) of conceding 6 and possibly more at home last game before Christmas (and hence becoming the Christmas joke of the epl - which btw, should really be conferred on either Manchester clubs but media bias hey ho)
We forget that prior to 3-6 gate, we have never lost a match THIS season by more than a single goal.
but people don’t seem to want context, don’t seem to want to understand, don’t seem to know that coaches and footballers are not robots that will do no wrong.
Culture is hardest to change, and system may be flawed, but if it changes culture, the future is going to be better and stronger
I can understand why there are many on here saying he needs time and are quoting Klopp, Pep and even Arteta as examples of how a philosophy manager can build a successful team in their image given time.Lost it under Pochs final season? That season was the very definition of audere est facere.
And of course gung ho football against leagues where defences are barely existent and goalkeepers can be beaten if you aim roughly anywhere to either side of them is going to work. Celtic?? Brendan Rogers and Martin O'Neil can be legendary managers there ffs.
This isn't premiership arrogance, this "football" wouldn't work in most European leagues... try it in La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga... wouldn't last 5 minutes.
Just admit that there are levels, and Ange ain't at this one.
But now we do that all the time...Love a balanced perspective, tis rare in here.
And love that u ended with the conte eg - because somehow, pundits, commentators, fans (I’m guilty of it live during matches myself) all expect players to be flawless, make and execute the best options - but like Ange said, we are all humans, and we will make mistakes
but his growth period point is that we will learn, we will grow, and given time, we will master and weed out poor decisions and improve. His job is to give the players the platform to do so.
so yes the system is flawed as all systems are, they all require players to play their part
I’d much rather (personally) watch us lose 3-6 at home than to have to watch PEH play backwards for the 100th time even when we are chasing games and then because we are chasing games, defenders push up leaving holes for counters and then going on to concede late goals
so many on here, trix included, will counter that they are not calling ange to become conte but just to tweak the defensive aspect.
how many times did ange bring peh on to close out games last season when available? While also substituting the wingers or striker or full backs or centre mids so as to still be able to score goals as opponents seek to come back.
this period of time, he never had that luxury!
and people kept using inconsistent form, stats like 20th defensively in Dec, esp the pain and embarrassment (self inflicted) of conceding 6 and possibly more at home last game before Christmas (and hence becoming the Christmas joke of the epl - which btw, should really be conferred on either Manchester clubs but media bias hey ho)
We forget that prior to 3-6 gate, we have never lost a match THIS season by more than a single goal.
but people don’t seem to want context, don’t seem to want to understand, don’t seem to know that coaches and footballers are not robots that will do no wrong.
Culture is hardest to change, and system may be flawed, but if it changes culture, the future is going to be better and stronger