Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

[okc1992]

My sentiments are that yesterday had the air of desperation about it.

Desperate in rushing back the two centre backs. When neither finishes the game, you can’t say that worked out.

Desperate in that we came out fast and furious - trying to zip the ball around, tearing around the pitch trying to press and get at them. It worked, briefly. After like half hour we had basically shot our load.

Just seemed to me that there was a concerted effort to come out and do something, and give us a shot in the arm. It didn’t work, and it now remains to be seen how the react and pick themselves up after that.

In general, I have to again disagree with fans bemoaning that Ange will never change. I get why they say that – the overplaying, lack of smarts and sensibility at time – but, as I’ve said before, I think him changing the approach has led to a lot of this.

The last few months we are now basically playing 4-2-4. Let’s get it right, Kulusevski plays as an extra forward. He’s no midfielder in any universe. We’ve also started employing the approach that leaves the wingers up top more when we haven’t got the ball, often having four forward waiting to break.

Last year was mainly an approach based around high possession and high territory. Still playing directly when we could, but we mainly tried to dominate and play our way through teams.

Now with the aforementioned changes we’re playing much transitional/counter style, and have opened games out even more. They’re even more end-to-end, more chaotic, and more of a lottery seeing who can out-gun who.

We’ve gone from an approach mimicking Pep, to some extent, to one that is basically Redknapp on steroids.

When it works, oh boy it works. But all the other times, it’s a mess. By and large it’s not getting performances. It’s not getting results. We go life and death with even Farmers League teams. Because it’s so chaotic and wide open, our players run up and down constantly like lunatics, and it’s no wonder they’re looking exhausted and injuries are piling up every week. It's not bad luck, it's self inflicted.

No serious team aims to play like this. You have to control the football match.

I’d actually much rather Ange did just stick to Plan A/how we operated when he first came in - high possession, high line, high territory, control ball and try to intricately play through teams – and work on refining that and get better players to play that style, rather than this shift to the wide open utter bollocks-ball that has been served up in the last few months. That can only end in tears.

Has he done this though because plan A isn't going to work with these wingers. We saw in the end half of last season that we couldn't have control with high possession as they would constantly lose the ball and we would get hit on the counter.

Maybe he would go back to it with a couple of signings in January. I would rather give him the chance instead of having to let Levy try and bring in a manager mid season. Which we know he'll make a mess of.

 

[southlondonyiddo]

The same Bentancur who got suspended for club and then country for 2 separate incidents? Not sure he is to be honest.

….much more dependable week in, week out, on the pitch

 

[NEVILLEB]

Typical of our recruitment really as both would probably have thrived under Conte’s system lol.

Yeah I do think they are both really good wingbacks.

With 3 central defenders they would be more protected from some of their defensive weaknesses.

 

[mil1lion]

….much more dependable week in, week out, on the pitch

Yeah but it's also what you do off the pitch that can influence players in the dressing room. I just don't see many great mentors at the club.

 

[C-oops]

….much more dependable week in, week out, on the pitch

Except these 7 games when he can't be depended on at all

 

[fecka]

Sorry but this simply is not true. There have been ups as well as downs. Too many downs which is the main concern. But to say it's been consistently downward is far off. I think start of this season we looked on an upward again. It then got more inconsistent in terms of performance where before results were inconsistent but we were playing well in the league games. Only recently we've seen a consistent run of poor performances to match the poor results.

We've played well and gotten results in short stints, yes. But as you say, more downs than ups which means we've been on a downward trajectory. Wins against United and City have been great, but they've honestly meant f all in the scheme of things as we can't seem to win against half the teams in the league.

 

[G Ron]

This is picking and choosing the games to suit your agenda. Before this shite run (which unsurprisingly has coincided with more injuries), I'm sure we'd won like 10 of our 12 games. Would that suggest that we were fairly consistent with some occasional (very) poor results?

I get all the arguments levelled against Ange, though I think it's lazy to call him incompetent or that his system doesn't work. It very clearly works, but it does require a level of commitment, fitness and talent that I don't think we quite have at the moment.

And therein lies the problem. The best managers will pivot their approach based upon the players they have available and the opposition they are faced with - we clearly don’t have the players available right now to succeed playing all out Ange's style of football and so you find another way to compete and win games. I also strongly believe that teams should set up to counter the strengths of their opponents and attempt to exploit their weaknesses, but again I see pretty much the same approach week in week out and that’s a major reason our results are so inconsistent.

Managers should not have a single style of play, they can have a preferred style, but they must adapt to the situation they are faced with in terms of available personnel and the opposition faced. I’m not seeing that tactical flexibility at all from us.

 

[The Scarecrow]

If we fail to beat Southampton, the pressure will start to mount for sure. I don't see any point in sacking him mid season unless we have a capable replacement lined up immediately, but I'm beginning to worry that we wont't ever find consistency under him.

What still gives me some hope, though, is that we had spells under Mourinho and Conte where we looked great, but when things went bad, they went consistently bad. We haven't reached that point with Ange yet, which tells me that he's some way off loosing the dressing room still. I really want him to succeed, so for the time being, as long as the players have fight in them, I'm Ange in.

 

[jakuba]

We've played well and gotten results in short stints, yes. But as you say, more downs than ups which means we've been on a downward trajectory. Wins against United and City have been great, but they've honestly meant f all in the scheme of things as we can't seem to win against half the teams in the league.

It’s not just that we can’t win against half of the league it’s that we can’t show up against half the league. Most of the games we’ve lost have been narrow but aside from the Newcastle game I can’t think of any we even turned up in.

 

[PLTuck]

I like the guy and like his philosophy which has produced some fantastic football in patches.

But ateotd it's a results business, and a fickle business and 7 losses from your first 15 games would see all but 1 or 2 managers see the axe starting to swing above them, newly promoted clubs aside.

Ideally I want him to stay and for the board to spend big on a couple of ready to go players in Jan, but we all know that isn't how this club works and Ange will be the fall guy.

 

[Ribble]

At this moment I would take Potter .

I don't understand why anyone wants Potter, his tactics are toothless and he seems pretty arrogant. Also every team he leaves seems to improve afterward - De Zerbi showed what mostly the same squad at Brighton was capable of & Poch did far better at implementing a long-term style at Chelsea. Even Steve Cooper who took over after him at Swansea did much better than he did.

 

[Dg9204]

I recently read the Vince Rugari book about Ange and while lots of it left me feeling extremely positive, the one major red flag was his last season in Yokohama. The season was condensed because of covid and they played 3 times a week and the team just couldn't keep up the intense style and finished lower mid table I think. Feels a lot like what we are going through right now.

With regards to us , Whether you want to blame Ange for not adapting or the club for not providing him with a suitable squad, is up for debate I guess.

 

[Bluto Blutarsky]

And therein lies the problem. The best managers will pivot their approach based upon the players they have available and the opposition they are faced with - we clearly don’t have the players available right now to succeed playing all out Ange's style of football and so you find another way to compete and win games. I also strongly believe that teams should set up to counter the strengths of their opponents and attempt to exploit their weaknesses, but again I see pretty much the same approach week in week out and that’s a major reason our results are so inconsistent.

Managers should not have a single style of play, they can have a preferred style, but they must adapt to the situation they are faced with in terms of available personnel and the opposition faced. I’m not seeing that tactical flexibility at all from us.

Our most successful recent manager was Poch - who had a very rigid 4231 set up, and played the same against nearly every opponent. And you look at successful managers like Pep and Klopp, and they play their style of football regardless of who they have available.

The issue is not about having a specific style of play - the issue is whether that style of play is suitable for consistent results in the premier league.

 

[Now it's Spursonal]

Edin Terzić - ex Dortmund coach who had them playing fantastic football and took them to the Champions League final. He resigned last summer and is still without a job.

Might be already said by someone, but a massive no to Terzic imo.

It was pretty widely accepted in Dortmund circles that Terzic was found out to be quite inept during the season they got to the final, so much so that Nuri Sahin as assistant basically took over the reigns mid-season and that’s why they turned a corner and got to the final.

Terzic resigning was purely down to the fact that he knew he wasn’t the manager there anymore anyway, and obviously Sahin immediately took the official reigns post Terzic.

 

[mil1lion]

And therein lies the problem. The best managers will pivot their approach based upon the players they have available and the opposition they are faced with - we clearly don’t have the players available right now to succeed playing all out Ange's style of football and so you find another way to compete and win games. I also strongly believe that teams should set up to counter the strengths of their opponents and attempt to exploit their weaknesses, but again I see pretty much the same approach week in week out and that’s a major reason our results are so inconsistent.

Managers should not have a single style of play, they can have a preferred style, but they must adapt to the situation they are faced with in terms of available personnel and the opposition faced. I’m not seeing that tactical flexibility at all from us.

Thing is it was OK last season because I could see sticking to the principles will embed the style into the players. But then you need the squad to be pretty much completed in the summer so the weaknesses get addressed. To only sign 1 first team player was negligent. Now we still have weaknesses to address and I'm not sure we can stick it out for a 2nd season. Not least because we will likely yet again not address the weaknesses next year. Nothing wrong with a manager with a set way of playing when they manage clubs who deliver in the window. We just make opportunistic signings or players from Base agency. That requires a manager who will ride the waves and adapt to what he has. We basically operate like Wolves but with Base instead of Mendes. Maybe O'Neil is the answer

 

[Dakes]

Might be already said by someone, but a massive no to Terzic imo.

It was pretty widely accepted in Dortmund circles that Terzic was found out to be quite inept during the season they got to the final, so much so that Nuri Sahin as assistant basically took over the reigns mid-season and that’s why they turned a corner and got to the final.

Terzic resigning was purely down to the fact that he knew he wasn’t the manager there anymore anyway, and obviously Sahin immediately took the official reigns post Terzic.

Sounds like a Gerrard type situation

 

[Now it's Spursonal]

I'd imagine a lot of fans would throw a fit but he's a very adaptable coach tactically and likes to bring younger players through.

Another massive no in my opinion, the football he had Juve playing last year was honestly the worst I’ve ever seen.

Absolutely putrid stuff and it’s not like they were getting results either.

Now if Motta was somehow let go by Juve, which wouldn’t surprise me with how badly they’ve been run recently, then he would be a superb pickup.

 

[mil1lion]

We've played well and gotten results in short stints, yes. But as you say, more downs than ups which means we've been on a downward trajectory. Wins against United and City have been great, but they've honestly meant f all in the scheme of things as we can't seem to win against half the teams in the league.

Not a constant downward trajectory though

 

[Mr Pink]

Anyway its pretty obvious we arent going to achieve consistency playing this way.

Pretty obvious the squad cant cope with the physical demands of this style either, hence the injuries.

So if Ange isnt for changing really ...whats the answer....

 

[mattspur1]

If we fail to beat Southampton, the pressure will start to mount for sure. I don't see any point in sacking him mid season unless we have a capable replacement lined up immediately, but I'm beginning to worry that we wont't ever find consistency under him.

What still gives me some hope, though, is that we had spells under Mourinho and Conte where we looked great, but when things went bad, they went consistently bad. We haven't reached that point with Ange yet, which tells me that he's some way off loosing the dressing room still. I really want him to succeed, so for the time being, as long as the players have fight in them, I'm Ange in.

He might not get to Southampton if we lose to Rangers on Thursday.