Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

[-Afri-Coy-]

UTD are shit and it’s early days with Chelsea but aside from Palmer I’m not seeing any truly world class players in their team. The table at the moment backs this up too, so far. Its wide open and clubs like Brighton and Forrest, who I’d say we have beater squads than, are right in the mix. You’d have thought that will look different come March time but everyone is having a go at the minute.

I can see what you’re saying about us to some degree but I’d say VdV and Romero and there or thereabouts and we have a lot of very good players who could potentially get to that level in a couple of years.

VDV has the potential, and so do a few of the younger players, but that’s all it is. Potential.

Romero is half way to Madrid already and his performances this season show that. Their summer interest has turned his head, and I’d be shocked if he signs an extension.

I’ll give you the United Argument as they don’t have any true world class players besides one season wonder Bruno who MIGHT be in the conversation, but they have a ton of potential too. Difference is if they wanted a world class player they would go out and spend the money necessary provided the player wanted to join the club. We wouldn’t pay the wages or the fee required. Chelsea have Palmer, and you could argue their squad as a whole has better potential than ours. Both these teams have won trophies in the last 5 seasons, we haven’t. That’s the difference.

Competing for top 6 isn’t what we should be doing anyway, we should be competing for titles and cups consistently given the size of our club financially.

 

[SA_Spurs]

on a microcosm yes. Not his fault.

But the bigger picture and this is Tottenham. Flaky. Fail to win at crucial moments.

That's because the culture of the club that is set by him.

Its strange how we can disassociate from Levy when its errors on the pitch, but associate with him when we win best stadium, best training facilities awards, etc. It shows the absolute CON job Levy has pulled on most spurs fans. DL has been Spurs chairman since 2001 - 23, almost 24 years! By his own account, he has already won simply because we are now a self-sustaining financial sporting giant. On the other hand, by most spurs fans standards, he has failed miserably (which has made all of us very unhappy fans!).

He ain't selling or leaving or going anywhere. He's rinsed & repeated this trick for 23 years and sees no reason to change it. His denial about how great he is feeds into the delusion of most of this fanbase & he knows it & exploits it. Until fans boycott the stadium, boo him incessantly, drop of memorandums every match day (not through the FAB please, as those are on his payroll) & make it known he needs to invest properly or leave - he is seriously a happy camper cos he's making crazy amounts of money.

To be fair, which of us wouldn't do the same in his position? Why should he sell? His investment is performing better tha even he might have anticipated! Unfortunately, as fans, we've opted to believe he is a fan of spurs and will do anything to see us succeed (the stadium is a game changer to help us compete with the top teams - remember that one?) when we should have seen through his lies and forced him out a long time ago.

So yes, he may not be the guy who actually concedes an own goal, but he is surely the guy who is smug knowing that he does not have to pay extra for big name players or pay bonuses when the team exceeds it targets. He's happy for the club to stay in this sorry state as it enables him to repeat the CON year after year.

For all the Daniel lovers, go ahead & disagree, mark my post as off topic etc. We know there are a ton of you here who are also equally happy for it to stay in this state as it keeps you on dear daniel's good books (must mean you get a a whopping & generous 1% discount on your season ticket - all courtesy of danny boy's generosity)

 

[-Afri-Coy-]

Man Utd have 2 world class players …really? Fernandez is their best player but certainly not world class. Son is nowhere near it either. Chelsea have a lot of very good players but you couldn’t say their best, Palmer, is world class. One great season doesn’t equate to that .

Okay let’s say you’re right, is our squad stronger than theirs as a whole? Definitely not. That’s the point I was making, maybe world class was the wrong word seems as it’s the only part of my entire post anyone is commenting on.

 

[NickHSpurs]

Ange still has some big shadows looming over him from former broken projects as far back as Poch.

The impact of Kane leaving and Son coming to the final years at this level was always going to have massive implications that will take years to fix, they carried us so much in recent years and we didn't plan for life without them sufficiently. Now we're left heavily reliant on players to win us games who are nowhere near that level, not even close.

You could even argue we didn't plan for life after Hugo. He was a winner and we never had that understudy waiting in the wings to come straight in the day he left and Vic just isn't ever going to be as good as prime Lloris.

Look at the direction our squad has taken in the last 5 years since the CL final and look at Liverpool. Not only have they retained most of their top talent since they've replaced the ones that left with players just as good, in fact their squad is probably even better now. We certainly can't say the same.

Prime Lloris, Toby, Jan, Rose, Dele, Eriksen, Son and Kane would have walked into most teams in the world. Who can we say that about now? VDV maybe?

 

[Mr Pink]

I'm reading the last few pages, and it's getting away from the main issue and letting the manager escape.

The major problem for us is the "classic" defending stuff - what we're doing to defend our goal when the ball gets near it. In some aspects it's rank bad, and totally unacceptable. There is a lack of shape, structure, responsibility to track runners, individuals do whatever the hell they want and wander wherever they see fit at random, you'll get two or three going to do the same job, other times no one does/the area is vacant, we see repeat stuff like the backline getting so narrow that they inexplicably leave the man at the back post open, and in general a lack of cohesion and working together as a unit.

You can't just say "well that's not the way we want to play mate". Every single football team in existence has had to defend their third of the pitch, you can't just be in such disarray whenever the ball gets near your goal and have it be such a blind spot. The ball gets in our half and we're more Sunday League than Premier League.

I mean there's no getting away from this defensive analysis.

Its literally like we flat out ignore this part of the game and unless we decide to improve this side of the game we',ll continue to see these topsy turvey results.

 

[Westmorlandspur]

Spursy.

It's a term I hate, as it oversimplifies and gives a basic stereotype of how we always let ourselves down or throw things away.

However, over time, it becomes hard to disagree with doesn't it? And this is what it comes to... for us to be labelled in such a manner is because long-term we have built a mentality, a culture, of being soft push-overs, with no consistent fight in our belly, no fucking stamina to last the full season.

And this is where I feel sorry for Ange and some of his predecessors. These guys have been elsewhere and won a lot. Been at multiple clubs where winning is part of the culture. Now they're at Spurs they can go from winning against Man City to not showing up against winless Ipswich.

It's funny because after supporting the club for almost 40 years I've not seen a lot of trophies in that time, especially in recent years, so who am I to be all entitled that we should now be in a different position. My problem is that this long stretch without success is defining the club... it's a culture so ingrained that the players and club are happy to just look like they're competing, to try and push for a top 4 position, with no absolute determination to never stop until you reach the very top.

I always live in hope we can change our course. To give one positive light about Ange's Spurs, I have liked how many times we have managed to rescue wins from losing positions, which shows some strength in character. But it's never consistent enough and we're a long way off being able to redefine what being Spursy is all about.

You have nothing to lose when one nil down so it’s arguable whether it shows character. Take the game by the scruff of the neck from start and make sure you win it.
We made the mistake of being 2-0 down which is a bit more difficult.
In Anges first 6 months we used to set off like a house on fire, not any more. It’s been the same since the new year.

 

[Gb160]

Then I'm looking at the board for once again half-arseing another window and only getting the Temu Timo versions of what the manager asked for.

FYP

 

[Westmorlandspur]

There are a few players that I'm pointing the blame at, rather than the manager.

Some of them just aren't as good as we thought they were, and they think they are.

Then I'm looking at the board for once again half-arseing another window and only getting the Temu versions of what the manager asked for.

Don't get me wrong, I think the youngsters we've got will all be very good (even great) players but none of them are going to help challenge this season.
It's the senior players who are letting us down, Madders, Romero, Sonny, Bentancur, Bissouma should all be dragging us through games like yesterday.

It was always going to be a painful rebuild but Levy is going to drag out that pain for as long as he can, all the while he can get away with not spending big amounts to speed up the process.

So I'm fully behind Ange still as he's fighting with one hand tied behind his back.
Sacking him will do nothing other than set us further back, again.

Let’s give Archie Gray a midfield role in the Europa . It’s his true position .

 

[EastUpperDK82]

But we didn’t win, every time we get into these positions we resort to type.

Yes... but that's not a new thing... it's "normal" for Spurs and has happened to many managers here before... I believe it will only change if we trust Ange... and that he will make some tweaks to his approach as well... his quotes from yesterday certainly made me feel a little bit better. He knows he has to do something new/different to support his main style of play. He took responsibilty.

 

[King of the Lane]

Imo it will all come down to a simple thing - will Ange change his style slightly and focus on improving us defensively (which is our biggest issue). If the answer is no then he will be sacked in the near future. If he is willing to adjust somewhat then maybe he can turn it around. Being stubborn and just saying to himself "my way will work eventually" will be what costs him his job.

 

[Westmorlandspur]

Ange still has some big shadows looming over him from former broken projects as far back as Poch.

The impact of Kane leaving and Son coming to the final years at this level was always going to have massive implications that will take years to fix, they carried us so much in recent years and we didn't plan for life without them sufficiently. Now we're left heavily reliant on players to win us games who are nowhere near that level, not even close.

You could even argue we didn't plan for life after Hugo. He was a winner and we never had that understudy waiting in the wings to come straight in the day he left and Vic just isn't ever going to be as good as prime Lloris.

Look at the direction our squad has taken in the last 5 years since the CL final and look at Liverpool. Not only have they retained most of their top talent since they've replaced the ones that left with players just as good, in fact their squad is probably even better now. We certainly can't say the same.

Prime Lloris, Toby, Jan, Rose, Dele, Eriksen, Son and Kane would have walked into most teams in the world. Who can we say that about now? VDV maybe?

Fair point about Liverpool but they are now in a position where they might lose their 3 best players for nothing in the summer. Not very organised is it. I think Trent is gone to Real Madrid .
VDV is 34 in the summer so it depends what length of contract he wants or what they are prepared to offer.
Prob worth 2 or 3 yr contract as not often injured . Salah will probably go. Will be 33 in the summer. Lure of Saudi might be too much.

 

[Impspur1]

Yes... but that's not a new thing... it's "normal" for Spurs and has happened to many managers here before... I believe it will only change if we trust Ange and that he will make some tweaks to his approach as well... his quotes from yesterday certainly made me feel a little bit better. He knows he has to do something new/different to support his main style of play. He took responsibilty.

I really hope so, l really want his brand of football to be successful

 

[EastUpperDK82]

Imo it will all come down to a simple thing - will Ange change his style slightly and focus on improving us defensively (which is our biggest issue). If the answer is no then he will be sacked in the near future. If he is willing to adjust somewhat then maybe he can turn it around. Being stubborn and just saying to himself "my way will work eventually" will be what costs him his job.

It will cost him if he doesn't make a few minor adjustments... because we don't have the quality players yet defensively to cope.... and he can't wait for that to happen... we can't wait for 2-3 more Micky van de Ven's to come in ... or a Van Dijk type of player... or a midfielder like Kantè... and our youngsters will take time to develop into quality PL-players... we have big, big talents... and Vuskovic to come in as well.

If Ange can manage it and learn, we will turn the corner.

So he has to do something... maybe it's only small things... because Ange's style... when it clicks.. is awesome

And let me just add... I'm so tired of our so called leaders and proven players..... come on !!! ... wake up and show some winners mentality... Romero should be bossing that defence... he can do it for Argentina all the time... but not at Spurs

 

[felmani26]

Imo it will all come down to a simple thing - will Ange change his style slightly and focus on improving us defensively (which is our biggest issue). If the answer is no then he will be sacked in the near future. If he is willing to adjust somewhat then maybe he can turn it around. Being stubborn and just saying to himself "my way will work eventually" will be what costs him his job.

It will come down to something even simpler - results

It's proved that in general people and fans ultimately don't care about underlying stats, XG, points gained from losing positions etc. and it comes down to where you are in the table come Sunday evening and either go into the week off the back of a victory with a positive outlook or glass half empty post defeat looking for blame.

We can kid ourselves that playing attractive football will compensate and mask other deficiencies but it's just not the case.

It's a results business and always will be - this is why I fear for Ange with this cut throat board.

 

[NickHSpurs]

Fair point about Liverpool but they are now in a position where they might lose their 3 best players for nothing in the summer. Not very organised is it. I think Trent is gone to Real Madrid .
VDV is 34 in the summer so it depends what length of contract he wants or what they are prepared to offer.
Prob worth 2 or 3 yr contract as not often injured . Salah will probably go. Will be 33 in the summer. Lure of Saudi might be too much.

Conor Bradley is already getting minutes at RB and Jarell Quansah at CB, granted they might not reach that same level as Trent & VVD but they have a plan in place and are already trying to blood kids to fill some of that playing time. Not to mention the money they'll reinvest better than we ever do.

 

[SA_Spurs]

Yes... but that's not a new thing... it's "normal" for Spurs and has happened to many managers here before... I believe it will only change if we trust Ange and that he will make some tweaks to his approach as well... his quotes from yesterday certainly made me feel a little bit better. He knows he has to do something new/different to support his main style of play. He took responsibilty.

thats what I don't get with so many fans wanting him out. He's never dug out the team, a player or even the club's hierarchy above him. He consistently takes responsibility as a way to show the players they can trust him & he has their backs but these players have been letting him down badly. Compare that with Jose or Conte who always sought scapegoats.

I think we're all frustrated by the horrendous inconsistency but there are enough green shoots to give Ange until the end of this season (at least) with the hope that we at least try to bring in some 1st team ready players in Jan window.

 

[Bluto Blutarsky]

and focus on improving us defensively (which is our biggest issue).

I actually don't think "defense" is our biggest issue.

If I were to prioritize things to fix:

1. Consistency in attack. We tend to have lots of possession, but we are really poor in the attacking end. If we can't hit on a counter, then our players seem lost for ideas. We don't move the ball around with intent, nor do we try to take players on, nor do we have players who will consistently put balls across or on target from outside the box. Yes, we are scoring goals - but not consistently enough to dominate teams from the front.

2. Transition defense - we get cut open on a regular basis, and its nothing to do with our central defenders, though they often take the blame. We end up caught out of position - and CMs and FBs are not there to cover runners leaving our central defenders exposed.

3. Corner/free kick defense - nobody has any confidence out there - we have been moderately successful, but I fear that is more luck than skill.

4. Passing. Seems rather simple, but we are not a very good passing team - which is important if we want to be in possession. We have difficulty playing out from the back, we have difficulty in transition, we have difficulty in the attacking third. Most of our players struggle to even properly weight a pass - often making soft passes when we need a crisp pass, or firing it in, when we need a bit of touch.


When it comes to actually defending - when we get bodies behind the ball, we are not bad - like most teams we can limit shots, block shots, and intercept passes. Maybe we could use a bit of work closing down on crosses - but, again, I think we have much higher priorities to work on.

 

[mattstev2000]

I'm surprised by how much leeway Ange is given by some of our fans and the faith that some have in him being able to be adaptive enough to manage the rebuild we need. I assume it's because they like his attitude, the way he talks and the fact that he's the opposite of Conte and Mourinho in terms of playing style.

Ignoring any discussions about who we should and shouldn't have signed, he should be doing better with the squad we have and he's had long enough to implement his style and change attitudes.

Also, the constant 'no-one else could ever do better so why change' is nonsense. We've had managers during Enic's tenure that have done better. Sometimes with less.

He should be given the rest of the season but if things don't pick up then I wouldn't be in favour of keeping him after that.

 

[WiganSpur]

I'm reading the last few pages, and it's getting away from the main issue and letting the manager escape.

The major problem for us is the "classic" defending stuff - what we're doing to defend our goal when the ball gets near it. In some aspects it's rank bad, and totally unacceptable. There is a lack of shape, structure, responsibility to track runners, individuals do whatever the hell they want and wander wherever they see fit at random, you'll get two or three going to do the same job, other times no one does/the area is vacant, we see repeat stuff like the backline getting so narrow that they inexplicably leave the man at the back post open, and in general a lack of cohesion and working together as a unit.

You can't just say "well that's not the way we want to play mate". Every single football team in existence has had to defend their third of the pitch, you can't just be in such disarray whenever the ball gets near your goal and have it be such a blind spot. The ball gets in our half and we're more Sunday League than Premier League.

Can’t disagree with this at all. The defenders themselves do have to take some responsibility but Romero’s positioning for example was simply not this haphazard under Conte. It feels like the defenders sometimes do good individual defensive actions (And that’s why most of us think they’re top defenders) but they don’t appear to be working to defend as a unit. Totally agree that Ange can’t wash his hands of that.

It’s another what I call “free pass” for Ange along with set pieces. Something you can improve to get marginal gains without compromising on your philosophy one bit. It’s one thing being a bit out of shape on an opposition counter but it doesn’t just happen on counters, it happens when the defence should be set too.

 

[WiganSpur]

I actually don't think "defense" is our biggest issue.

If I were to prioritize things to fix:

1. Consistency in attack. We tend to have lots of possession, but we are really poor in the attacking end. If we can't hit on a counter, then our players seem lost for ideas. We don't move the ball around with intent, nor do we try to take players on, nor do we have players who will consistently put balls across or on target from outside the box. Yes, we are scoring goals - but not consistently enough to dominate teams from the front.

2. Transition defense - we get cut open on a regular basis, and its nothing to do with our central defenders, though they often take the blame. We end up caught out of position - and CMs and FBs are not there to cover runners leaving our central defenders exposed.

3. Corner/free kick defense - nobody has any confidence out there - we have been moderately successful, but I fear that is more luck than skill.

4. Passing. Seems rather simple, but we are not a very good passing team - which is important if we want to be in possession. We have difficulty playing out from the back, we have difficulty in transition, we have difficulty in the attacking third. Most of our players struggle to even properly weight a pass - often making soft passes when we need a crisp pass, or firing it in, when we need a bit of touch.


When it comes to actually defending - when we get bodies behind the ball, we are not bad - like most teams we can limit shots, block shots, and intercept passes. Maybe we could use a bit of work closing down on crosses - but, again, I think we have much higher priorities to work on.

The passing really isn’t as simple as it sounds there. Without making excuses for the players there’s always going to be a natural variation in the consistency of passing in any given game due to opposition pressure, state of a pitch and weather conditions. Part of the passing stuff is recognising when the plan isn’t working and trying something different like more forward and direct passes in behind, or more chipped balls to Solanke. An example of this is the Galatasaray game. It was early in the game so they weren’t tired, the pitch looked quite dry, their manager had organised a decent press, we’d had trouble playing out 2-3 times and had conceded dangerous chances from it. It should have been tweaked 15-20 mins in but we kept doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.