Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

[McFlash]

It's like some don't realise that apart from maybe the top two or three teams and the bottom two or three, the PL is a very competitive league.

We're nowhere near the stage in our rebuild that we should be expecting to win every game, losses will happen and yes, they hurt but we've just got to ride them out.

Let's give Ange, the players and the club a bit of time and patience to see if and how they can figure out the problems and fix them.

I also think our midfield is still too weak, Sarr is still young and Madders, Biss and Bentancur can all be flaky and inconsistent.
We need a top player in there, someone who can regularly put in a solid and dependable performance, not swing between great and anonymous.
Maybe Bergvall and Gray can become that but again, we're going to have to show some patience.

 

[Trix]

We have been missing out on this position for a long time, and the specialists in these positions come in at top dollar, right behind the goalscorers - look at every top team and they have quality in this position.

We don't... its absolutely the most important position (I call it the no.6 position if I was numbering)... so, so important.

When did we have our last no6 enforcer type player?

I'm not sure an enforcer is as important as someone who can take the ball under pressure and play out. Someone thoroughly aware of his surroundings and comfortable passing either left or right, able to turn off both shoulders and generally being an always option on the half turn as far as an outlet. I'd much much prefer Dembele to peak Wanyama for instance.

 

[Mr Pink]

So what, TBH I don't care what he is, does or doesn't do, what possible difference would it make, it's all gone beyond that now. We'll churn through this manager, spit and chew out the next one and none of the previous ones have managed much either, we've complained about, wanted them out, change this, he doesn't do that............

The only difference in any of them, absolutely any of them, are the nature of the complaints and often times, they've actually been the same thing. I'm not sure when the penny will drop, we can criticise, we can want him out and to what end? To repeat the cycle and that's all. We'll want Ange out so we can begin the proicess of wanting the next patsy out.

This club won't be any different until the philosophy changes and that won't happen under the current lot.

So for me, right now and until that happens, a manager who'll try to play the right way will do because the evidence is clear.

Agreed.

But you Know Levy will grind his axe the minute our financial aims our not met ie European football and all that loss of revenue.

And yes rinse and repeat under this ownership.

The penny has dropped for most.

Its ok to want Ange to stay and feel thoroughly deflated

Thats where I am at because I know we'll never be real players under this ownership.

 

[Mr Pink]

That is a good reference point. City even do that under Pep sometimes away from home where they grind out a tight 0-1 or 1-2.

Under Ferguson, Utd would blow teams away at Old Trafford in a very attacking 4-4-2 and then away from home in the PL and especially in Europe they’d switch to a 4-5-1 and sit in and counter more when they needed to.

I love Ange but I’m not sure any manager has been truly successful by simply only having a Plan A and not even having a slightly tweaked version of plan A, never mind a plan B or C.

But tbh this is a bigger issue than Ange, it stems from the top, our squad is yet again not good enough in many areas and the culture at the club remains the same under ENIC and the same cycle will just keep repeating itself except now it’s not just a strong top4 teams we are dropping away from there is a good 8-10 teams who we could drop behind so our rinse and repeat strategy will no longer be good enough for even 5/6th on a bad season but we’ll often be out of Europe all together possibly even upper 2nd half of the table!

Spot on.

 

[Trix]

It's like some don't realise that apart from maybe the top two or three teams and the bottom two or three, the PL is a very competitive league.

We're nowhere near the stage in our rebuild that we should be expecting to win every game, losses will happen and yes, they hurt but we've just got to ride them out.

Let's give Ange, the players and the club a bit of time and patience to see if and how they can figure out the problems and fix them.

I also think our midfield is still too weak, Sarr is still young and Madders, Biss and Bentancur can all be flaky and inconsistent.
We need a top player in there, someone who can regularly put in a solid and dependable performance, not swing between great and anonymous.
Maybe Bergvall and Gray can become that but again, we're going to have to show some patience.

For me it's not so much about winning and losing as it is the manner of performance, and by that I don't just mean having a higher xG or whatever. I mean yes winning is the most important thing to me but I have no doubt Ange wants to win. During a rebuild I expected losses, but as I said in another post, just like his philosophy of how to play our performances have too been all or nothing. Either brilliant where we control the game and look like we have a real solid plan, or an utter mess, disjointed, lethargic and at times clueless. When a new manager is building something good, you'd like to see steady progression. Obviously there will blips and stutter's along the way but that's not really what we are seeing imo. We are either brilliant or awful right now, which is really confusing as to why. Numerous possibilities as to why I guess, but it is happening too often for it to just be "a bad day at the office".

 

[E17yid]

It's like some don't realise that apart from maybe the top two or three teams and the bottom two or three, the PL is a very competitive league.

We're nowhere near the stage in our rebuild that we should be expecting to win every game, losses will happen and yes, they hurt but we've just got to ride them out.

Let's give Ange, the players and the club a bit of time and patience to see if and how they can figure out the problems and fix them.

I also think our midfield is still too weak, Sarr is still young and Madders, Biss and Bentancur can all be flaky and inconsistent.
We need a top player in there, someone who can regularly put in a solid and dependable performance, not swing between great and anonymous.
Maybe Bergvall and Gray can become that but again, we're going to have to show some patience.

For me it’s just the downgrading expectations from the start of the season. I was happy to put last years league form from Nov last year behind me but it appears it’s still very much rolling into this season as well which is fine, I guess, just going to take longer than me, or even Ange, probably thought.

For the record, I wasn’t expecting top 4 and a trophy but I was expecting us to be very close to it, and maybe we still will be, but at the moment it looks like we’re a solid mid table side and given Ange is a short term manager specialist who comes into clubs needing rebuilds and turns them around quickly, it doesn’t bode well that we are imo, at best, hitting a plateau and at worst, regressing.

 

[Mr Pink]

Putting yesterday's absolutely abysmal performance aside I do think we're improving as a team if you look at us over the course of the season so far. Despite an awful defensive performance it's still worth remembering that only 3 teams have conceded fewer than us this season. I would fucking well hope we'll never see another game where our entire back-4 seemingly can't make a single 10 yard pass.

Our away form is a huge concern, and there is no getting away from that, but I think this is where Ange has to learn to become a bit more flexible. He just doesn't seem to be able to adapt in away games when we're up against it like he is able to in home games.

I don't believe we're suddenly going to shoot back up the table, but I also don't think there are that many "great" teams this season who will pull away from us. This weekend felt fucking rough, but with Villa, Brighton, United and Newcastle all dropping points I'm happy to put yesterday's performance down as "one of those days", and hope we get a response in the cup against City and again against Villa.

Of course we'll see a response, theyre both at home.

Not counting City away, as thats a free hit, but Im already looking at Bournemouth away early December and wondering will it be our typical away performance again.

Thats where we need to see the flexibility you mention.

 

[Goobers]

Of course we'll see a response, theyre both at home.

Not counting City away, as thats a free hit, but Im already looking at Bournemouth away early December and wondering will be our typical away performance again.

Thats where we need to see the flexibility you mention.

That's a very fair point.

 

[Monkey boy]

It's like some don't realise that apart from maybe the top two or three teams and the bottom two or three, the PL is a very competitive league.

We're nowhere near the stage in our rebuild that we should be expecting to win every game, losses will happen and yes, they hurt but we've just got to ride them out.

Let's give Ange, the players and the club a bit of time and patience to see if and how they can figure out the problems and fix them.

I also think our midfield is still too weak, Sarr is still young and Madders, Biss and Bentancur can all be flaky and inconsistent.
We need a top player in there, someone who can regularly put in a solid and dependable performance, not swing between great and anonymous.
Maybe Bergvall and Gray can become that but again, we're going to have to show some patience.

Maybe we should try telling our players this as they keep turning up to games and putting in performances like that.

Its not the getting beat that hurts, christ we're spurs fans who are more than used to that by now but its the manner of defeat that stings and when we routinely get beaten by far inferior teams than us just because they show some fight and hussle then thats when the knives come out (for me at least).

Ive noticed a real tone in here this season which is people referring back to the Poch days. Loads of us said at the time that he should have been the man to have been brought in. Like what possible reason was there to overlook him? He bleeds the club, he oversaw the last painful rebuild, he plays brilliant front foot football whilst having a solid spine that can go away from home and mix it with anyone when required. The decision to pick Ange over Poch was disastrous and one that has to be the final straw for Levy. He simply HAS to go and be replaced with someone with some form of ambition to be the very best FOOTBALL team.

 

[DiVaio]

He spent 40 million on Gray in the summer and plays in at right back. Ange is clearly out of his depth. Get rid before the season cant be saved!

Gray is big talent but he’s clearly not good enough to play as a midfielder yet. He wasn’t good there for Leeds last season or even in preseason he was the worst as a 6 from all of the positions he played

 

[BC11]

Of course we'll see a response, theyre both at home.

Not counting City away, as thats a free hit, but Im already looking at Bournemouth away early December and wondering will it be our typical away performance again.

Thats where we need to see the flexibility you mention.

100%. I think we'll get 4/6 points out of Villa and Ipswich but Bournemouth is the test.

These types of away performances need to stop. If we continue to get outfought every away game this project isn't going anywhere. The worrying thing is this manager and group of players haven't shown they're able to win away games, barring the first 10 games of last season.

 

[McFlash]

It's impossible to know for sure whether flippant comments like this are serious or not.

I'd say ignorant at best.

 

[Monkey boy]

Of course we'll see a response, theyre both at home.

Not counting City away, as thats a free hit, but Im already looking at Bournemouth away early December and wondering will it be our typical away performance again.

Thats where we need to see the flexibility you mention.

No doubt we'd hear the inevitable, they beat Arsenal so are no push over yadda yadda yadda to excuse another lacklustre performance.

 

[mil1lion]

Being a cup team won't be enough unless we actually win one. I'm sure back when we were referred too as a cup team there was a real sense of belief as we had a record of winning some. Now we haven't won one since 2008 I don't think we will really enjoy cups that much. Even if we get to a final it's going to feel tense. If we win then the feeling will be great for a little while after but we will still not enjoy a large part of the season.

You want to enjoy the whole season more than this. Cup wins only happen on one day. I want to enjoy most weeks and that comes from league form. Not to mention that really helps build momentum towards a final. Did people enjoy us under Jose for example? We got to a final but the mood wasn't great. Even the CL final felt more surreal than anything. I never had belief in the team at that point and that comes from our bad form in the league.

I'm really not enjoying us this season. It's far too up and down not knowing what we're going to get. For all those that said they just want good football I think this had got to be challenging now. Results are first and foremost the most important thing. I feel better when we play bad but win than play great and lose.

 

[McFlash]

For me it's not so much about winning and losing as it is the manner of performance, and by that I don't just mean having a higher xG or whatever. I mean yes winning is the most important thing to me but I have no doubt Ange wants to win. During a rebuild I expected losses, but as I said in another post, just like his philosophy of how to play our performances have too been all or nothing. Either brilliant where we control the game and look like we have a real solid plan, or an utter mess, disjointed, lethargic and at times clueless. When a new manager is building something good, you'd like to see steady progression. Obviously there will blips and stutter's along the way but that's not really what we are seeing imo. We are either brilliant or awful right now, which is really confusing as to why. Numerous possibilities as to why I guess, but it is happening too often for it to just be "a bad day at the office".

Yeah, it's baffling how we can lurch from so good and cohesive, to looking like a team who've never met each other before.
I agree with what you say in being prepared to let Biss and Bents go for a proper solid player there and having Gray as rotation, and I do think that would help but I just cannot fathom how when we are bad, it's the entire team that are woeful, not just one or two.

I'm still optimistic that we will improve as the season goes on, possibly by introducing the kids more but these abject performances are too frequent and that's a big concern.

I think a lot of blame has to fall on Levy again because while it's great to be nabbing young talents, it has to be supplemented with real quality if we want to progress and in the last window, Solanke aside, we didn't really improve the first team at all.

If that's not addressed in January (in the midfield area especially), I'm not going to be pointing my finger of blame at Ange.

 

[McFlash]

For me it’s just the downgrading expectations from the start of the season. I was happy to put last years league form from Nov last year behind me but it appears it’s still very much rolling into this season as well which is fine, I guess, just going to take longer than me, or even Ange, probably thought.

For the record, I wasn’t expecting top 4 and a trophy but I was expecting us to be very close to it, and maybe we still will be, but at the moment it looks like we’re a solid mid table side and given Ange is a short term manager specialist who comes into clubs needing rebuilds and turns them around quickly, it doesn’t bode well that we are imo, at best, hitting a plateau and at worst, regressing.

Yup, my main hope for this season was not really based on league position, more that we closed the points gap to the top boys.
It's a competitive league and the difference from 4th to say, 8th is looking to be tight so just keeping the top two closer would be progression whatever our final position ends up (along with a decent cup run or three!).

The problem is the wild swings between looking great and looking shite but again, I'm not sure any manager would be capable of doing much better with the current squad.

 

[Goobers]

Gray is big talent but he’s clearly not good enough to play as a midfielder yet. He wasn’t good there for Leeds last season or even in preseason he was the worst as a 6 from all of the positions he played

Ok but how do we know he is not good enough to play in midfield at the moment

 

[McFlash]

Maybe we should try telling our players this as they keep turning up to games and putting in performances like that.

Its not the getting beat that hurts, christ we're spurs fans who are more than used to that by now but its the manner of defeat that stings and when we routinely get beaten by far inferior teams than us just because they show some fight and hussle then thats when the knives come out (for me at least).

Ive noticed a real tone in here this season which is people referring back to the Poch days. Loads of us said at the time that he should have been the man to have been brought in. Like what possible reason was there to overlook him? He bleeds the club, he oversaw the last painful rebuild, he plays brilliant front foot football whilst having a solid spine that can go away from home and mix it with anyone when required. The decision to pick Ange over Poch was disastrous and one that has to be the final straw for Levy. He simply HAS to go and be replaced with someone with some form of ambition to be the very best FOOTBALL team.

I agree with the first part but not the second because I'm not convinced that bringing Poch back was the right thing to do at all.
I don't think the manager is the issue, it's the philosophy and recruitment from the top that's the issue.

We've leapt into buying youngsters which is fine but the senior players we have in several areas aren't good enough and youth will always be inconsistent.
We needed to invest in youth while improving the first team and we failed in doing that.

 

[Monkey boy]

I agree with the first part but not the second because I'm not convinced that bringing Poch back was the right thing to do at all.
I don't think the manager is the issue, it's the philosophy and recruitment from the top that's the issue.

We've leapt into buying youngsters which is fine but the senior players we have in several areas aren't good enough and youth will always be inconsistent.
We needed to invest in youth while improving the first team and we failed in doing that.

Is there not an argument to be had that Poch maybe would have insisted on doing just that and had enough clout to make it happen over Ange who is on a third of the salary and happy to be given what he gets as this is going to be the pinnacle of his career?

**Edit - I also think that Poch would have been far more adaptable in finding ways to win than what Ange is. Its feast or famine football which is no way to build a successful team. He regularly gets out coached and has no answers to slight changes in opposition tactics.

 

[mpickard2087]

It is what it is, this team will win games and look good some weeks, and others look a shambles as we lose pathetically. It’s why I’ve largely stopped posting this season to be honest, it’s just boring going round and round in circles having the same discussion and I’ve just resigned myself to this team being as it is.

Too many of them are inconsistent, flaky players who lack reliability week in week out. Too many of them are “moments” players, and fleeting moments at that. Too many – fans, and, worse, people at the club including the manager – are prepared to accept that.

Whisper it, but Ange is actually a bit self-indulgent and borderline cringe in interviews, frequently veering into the territory of saying he does things differently to other managers, and framing it that he believes in attacking football more than anyone else. Well alright, but prove it. If you are different and radical, be it. We’re half-arsing it in my opinion. We talk about adapting but it would be nice to commit to Plan A fully first.

If you want to at least attempt to be vintage Spain/Barca, or Brazil 1970, some free-wheeling maverick attacking team that plays the ball always and from everywhere and anywhere, build a team that reflects this. Let’s start at the back, seeing as that’s where our play starts from – get a goalkeeper who can spray passes at will, get some maverick centre backs who can dribble or laser passes out, and so on going up the team. I’m not expecting the best players, but as I’ve said time and again there needed to be much more emphasis on reliable technical footballing ability than what we have done in composing this squad.

I just think we’re in limbo really. Of course there are things that Ange could do differently in amongst his approach to the game. But the crux of the problem is that for these players tasked to pull of this style of play, too many of them can’t do it. We’re writing cheques that their ability can’t reliably cash.