Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

[npearl4spurs]

Agree Mr. Pink. I enjoy the conversation because it is fun to see the arguments as to why it isn't working as well as we want.

I still believe in Ange because he does convey confidence in us going forward in what he says and he has a track record that shows adaptability (to some degree at the levels he has been at), perseverance through challenges, and eventual success.

The question really boils down to: does he have what it takes to do it at the very highest level with one hand tied behind his back in a club/board/chairman that won't do what it takes to attract the very best players possible? If he succeeds, for me it is up there with Leicester as one of the greatest PL success stories ever. If he fails, I won't lay the entire blame at his feet because I don't believe you can when you compare our squad across the league.

As someone who has been so resistant to admit this, I believe it is undeniable at this point that he needs to adapt/compromise/tweak/be pragmatic *insert whatever word you want here* to opponents and different game states, especially with the squad he has. When we start showing that side of being able to "grind out results" and show that side of a winning mentality or a cannot lose mentality, then my faith in him will take an even farther step.

 

[DJS]

I didn’t see anything wrong with what he said after the match as was saying was on him to resolved and indicated the players had perhaps gotten a bit carried away, which is true.

He has also been adjusting his tactics lately that has led to Kulusevski and Johnson flourishing.

As a club we do seem to have a culture of defeats like this where we show weakness mentality and it will take Ange a bit more time if he is to stand that out - since supporting spurs seriously since early nineties I only rember Poch’s tenure minus the start of his last season in charge where we haven’t had a soft underbelly that we had no idea when it would show.

And if Ange doesn’t work out, bring back Poch…

 

[Trix]

Why are some people a bit dim lol

Nobody is suggesting Ange should be or is likely to be sacked.

What they are discussing - is the current style of football sustainable enough to get us to where we want to be as a Club in the future, specifically if Ange doesnt adapt more.

Thats an entirely reasonable discussion and the only hyperbole comments are coming from those jumping to the conclusion that people want him sacked because they're discussing it.

This ^^^^

I came to the conclusion ages ago that those who just like to jump in with words like "Hyperbole" when referring to Spurs stuff on here(as was on the previous page) are literally just folk who haven't properly read, or in fact understood what is actually being said. It's usually the same posters who throw around words like "Kneejerk" after someone criticises a loss, whilst ignoring the fact they have been saying the same things for months. It's just a buzzword that means very little on a forum like this because it's 99 times out of a 100, total bollocks based on no evidence whatsoever.

 

[Neon_Knight_]

I think it's still a bit early to say whether the defensive numbers we're seeing (goals and XG conceded) are indicative of a positive trend or just natural deviation from the mean. I think we will have a better idea over the next 2-3 games as to how we are defending.

So you're saying it's not reactionary for people to criticise the manager/system/team for conceding too many goals, after every single game that we don't win, even while it's the second leanest defence in the league?

 

[talkshowhost86]

We've seen him sort the set piece issue out this season.
We've seen the fullbacks sit back and invert less recently making it less congested.
We've seen Johnson playing inside a lot more.
We've seen a bit more of a dedicated 6 Infront of the back four.

All things people wanted to see a bit more of.

So he's shown he can problem solve and adapt, but I firmly believe these game management conversations wouldn't be as prominent if Romero had been doing his job properly.

Essentially, you're asking if he's prepared to die on the hill of his philosophy and throw this opportunity away, an opportunity he's most likely dreamt about for 30 years, or with time adapt.

Time might not be as strong as necessity is as the season goes on.
All we can do is guess and watch it play out.

Fair points on the first four. I think he's also adapted our approach to ensure more is going through the middle than just relying on the wide-players which has made a significant difference.

I do disagree on the game management based on what we've seen in the last 12 months though.

Yes individual errors are to blame and there is only so much a manager can do about that other than dropping the players, but it's more about how we react when those things happen...and by and large we, and Ange in particular, don't react very well.

It's why we are poor at closing out matches because we don't shift our way of playing if we're winning, with Sunday being the absolute example of that.

Is it a philosophy thing? Maybe. If so I suppose that could change over time, but it hasn't really over the time he's been here so far.

 

[Trix]

So you're saying it's not reactionary for people to criticise the manager/system/team for conceding too many goals, after every single game that we don't win, even while it's the second leanest defence in the league?

I criticised in exactly the same way after Qarabag, Coventry and Leicester and we didn't lose any of those. It was the same last season also in games we won lost and drew. It's quite simple really. I ignore stats and I base my opinions on what I see. We have been fortunate in a few games this season and a good number last season in that the opposition wasn't clinical whilst we were. It's just not sustainable to keep giving up the type of chances we do in a league of this quality and expect not to get punished.

So this post just proves my last post entirely.

 

[easley91]

This thread has gotten very weird. Reading the last few pages it feels like Ange is a dead man walking, but we've been on a good run of results other than a pretty shitty second half against a good team.

Am I missing something?

International beak innit.

 

[ajspurs]

Fair points on the first four. I think he's also adapted our approach to ensure more is going through the middle than just relying on the wide-players which has made a significant difference.

I do disagree on the game management based on what we've seen in the last 12 months though.

Yes individual errors are to blame and there is only so much a manager can do about that other than dropping the players, but it's more about how we react when those things happen...and by and large we, and Ange in particular, don't react very well.

It's why we are poor at closing out matches because we don't shift our way of playing if we're winning, with Sunday being the absolute example of that.

Is it a philosophy thing? Maybe. If so I suppose that could change over time, but it hasn't really over the time he's been here so far.

Yeah that's one thing I'd like to see adopted too with the game management. For instance I think if we were 2-1 up in a tight game in the 90th minute, we'd still see Udogie and Porro both high up in the opposition half along with almost everyone else and I don't think it would need to be as such. I certainly don't want it to be our primary way of playing because that's not Ange's way of playing and I think the way we currently set up and approach games can be very successful, but I don't think momentarily plugging gaps and not making us one mistake away from the opposition being one on one should all of a sudden negate all of our positive and attacking capabilities.

I do think we're doing so well with a lot of the other aspects to our football though and like I've said before, if we could sort out the soft centre and somewhat mitigate the massive gaps that sometimes present themselves then there's a really, really promising football side there.

 

[HildoSpur]

This ^^^^

I came to the conclusion ages ago that those who just like to jump in with words like "Hyperbole" when referring to Spurs stuff on here(as was on the previous page) are literally just folk who haven't properly read, or in fact understood what is actually being said. It's usually the same posters who throw around words like "Kneejerk" after someone criticises a loss, whilst ignoring the fact they have been saying the same things for months. It's just a buzzword that means very little on a forum like this because it's 99 times out of a 100, total bollocks based on no evidence whatsoever.

Oh no I understood just fine - it wasnt directed at you by the way in case you think it was - it was however firmly directed at those in the thread that have called for Ange's head (there are a few of them). For the record I know full well what hyperbole means and it was correctly used within the context I meant it.

 

[Misfit]

I view these three years or so as the long overdue rebuild/reset so have moderated my expectations of success and year to year progress as a result.

Others have not.

So we all have conflicting ideas of what is acceptable in the meantime.

It's what the club high ups feel/expect that matters ultimately.

 

[Thenewcat]

I criticised in exactly the same way after Qarabag, Coventry and Leicester and we didn't lose any of those. It was the same last season also in games we won lost and drew. It's quite simple really. I ignore stats and I base my opinions on what I see. We have been fortunate in a few games this season and a good number last season in that the opposition wasn't clinical whilst we were. It's just not sustainable to keep giving up the type of chances we do in a league of this quality and expect not to get punished.

So this post just proves my last post entirely.

I agree with you re last season but actually don’t agree at all this year. We haven’t given up that many high quality chances this year, either by the eye test or by stats. I know you hate xG but over large samples it’s directionally useful, and all the different systems have us top 3 in chances conceded this year, and I think the eye test backs that up. Brighton is really the only game where we have given up a lot of clear cut chances. Arsenal created very little (neither did we of course), Newcastle scored 2 from 3 meaningful attacks, Leicester were outplayed and all our wins have been utterly comprehensive.

I think we’ve been pretty unlucky this year, which isn’t to say there isn’t alot to work on. But we have pretty much the minimum number of points we possibly could have given the games we’ve played to date

 

[ultimateloner]

s

The problem is every time we are on a managerial search we speak to quite a few. Some of them Levy(the board) doesn't like, then there are others that just won't work under him because of his history. You say he did well getting Ange but like a huge number of staff at the club now he is repped by Base. Had he not been I'm not sure he'd have even been on the radar.

This isn't me having a pop at Ange or saying he's not the right guy, this is me saying what I have always said.....Are we picking up all these Base represented players and staff members because they are the best people we could bring in, or is it because they are repped by Base and it's an easy to facilitate fix. I do find it incredibly difficult to believe due to the numbers that it is the former to be quite honest.

sorry but what does repped by Base mean? What/who is Base?

 

[jakuba]

s

sorry but what does repped by Base mean? What/who is Base?

A sports agency that a vast number of our squad use for representation. We do a huge amount of business with them so have a strong relationship - which will presumably have opened a door or two to help Ange get in front of the board for the manager’s position (though won’t have been the determinative reason).

 

[only1waddle]

Fair points on the first four. I think he's also adapted our approach to ensure more is going through the middle than just relying on the wide-players which has made a significant difference.

I do disagree on the game management based on what we've seen in the last 12 months though.

Yes individual errors are to blame and there is only so much a manager can do about that other than dropping the players, but it's more about how we react when those things happen...and by and large we, and Ange in particular, don't react very well.

It's why we are poor at closing out matches because we don't shift our way of playing if we're winning, with Sunday being the absolute example of that.

Is it a philosophy thing? Maybe. If so I suppose that could change over time, but it hasn't really over the time he's been here so far.

I'm all in favour of playing some boring possession football if we're up in games just to shut the opposition out, and certainly we need to bring something like this into our play at away grounds when the crowd is up and we're winning.
I'm on board with that type of game management, and Ange should be too as it's still the same philosophy of keep the ball.

I've mentally wiped the slate clean from last season and will judge him on performance this season, purely because transition seasons are a nightmare for even proven coaches, and last season was pretty messy.

Realistically though, I agree we'll never maintain a consistent top 4 position without some pragmatism, unless of course we get really bloody good at what we're currently doing and seriously upgrade some positions, which I think Ange probably favours.

I'm here for the ride now tbh, and I think it'll be quite a bumpy season.

 

[funkycoldmedina]

Whilst I don't agree, I don't disagree either. It'll be down to both imo. Levy for employing yet another one way or the highway manager and not getting the players necessary. Also Ange for refusing to adapt to his surroundings and for taking a job knowing how we operate.

Best case scenario is of course is Ange accepting he might need to make a few tactical allowances and adjust his team to suit what we have until the young players mature a bit into his system. At the same time Levy gets in the right players required to fit this philosophy. That however will only happen over time, and it will surely be sprinkled with other kids of high potential.

Without compromise though it will no doubt follow the same path as the last few stubborn in their process managers.

Be under no illusion the only difference between Ange and Conte is how far forward they want to play, and how important possession is to them. Apart from that they are very very alike.

Conte generally wanted ready made, older players, Bastoni for example. Ange wants to work with younger which fits our strategy better.

 

[Gb160]

Conte generally wanted ready made, older players, Bastoni for example. Ange wants to work with younger which fits our strategy better.

Has he actually said this ?

 

[Bluto Blutarsky]

I have been trying to stay away from the board for a few days - just to avoid some of the conversations - too depressing sometimes.

My thoughts are this: Ange, and his style of football, can absolutely win in this league - we saw that at Old Trafford. He is still the same manager that delivered that result.

Earlier this year, I was concerned by what I saw as a lack of improvement. But, if I am being honest - I did see improvement in that Coventry - Brentford - Qarabag - United stretch. Players looked like they knew what they were doing, the patterns of play looked organized, and well-drilled.

We had a set-back against Brighton - no question.

Thats an opportunity for Ange to learn, and for the players to learn. But, I think that is still to be expected - consistency is the last thing to arrive.

I remain hopeful that we can continue to show progress. I look forward to seeing players like Richi and Odobert get back into the picture - if nothing else we have missed the chance to rotate some attacking players in.

I'd like to see us make a few moves in January - DM and LB in particular.

I'd like to see us continue to give starts and minutes to Gray, Bergvall and Moore, in particular.

Like everyone, that Brighton result left me feeling down - but there are still reasons for optimism, and I am still 100% behind Ange, his tactics, and the path the club is on.

 

[funkycoldmedina]

Has he actually said this ?

He's said he prefers coaching players with less tactical baggage

 

[Neon_Knight_]

I criticised in exactly the same way after Qarabag, Coventry and Leicester and we didn't lose any of those. It was the same last season also in games we won lost and drew. It's quite simple really. I ignore stats and I base my opinions on what I see. We have been fortunate in a few games this season and a good number last season in that the opposition wasn't clinical whilst we were. It's just not sustainable to keep giving up the type of chances we do in a league of this quality and expect not to get punished.

So this post just proves my last post entirely.

We have also been "unfortunate" (or not good enough) in some games this season, where we failed to convert multiple chances but our opponents were very clinical with the odd chance they created.

I agree that we'd benefit from switching to a more pragmatic approach at times, but like someone else suggested earlier in this thread, Ange may well be prioritising the team getting better at his 'Plan A', before routinely introducing his 'Plan B' or 'Plan C'.

 

[Joshua shepherd]

I’ll get mocked etc because of their terrible start but West Ham aren’t far away quality wise either. Paqueta (incoming ban aside) is top quality as is kudus, Bowen would fly under Ange and they have two decent strikers. Not going to go through the squads but just saying they aren’t a million miles away.

We look at these clubs and laugh at the thought but in reality with the money going around a lot of clubs have very very good squads and we can’t afford to stand still.

I feel like we put all our eggs in the building for the future basket. Now long term people that like levy may call it a master stroke if bergvall and or gray go onto be 100 million plus players but right now it could well cost Ange his job and could mean another season written off.

As I said before i think the squad is currently performing to where it should. Of course it’s inconsistent as it’s so young and if we have any sort of injuries we were going to struggle and sure enough we are.

Another issue with building to the future is presuming that everything else will stay the same. The rumours about Romero won’t stop, now Porto is making noises and then you have an ageing and declining sonny.

That summer window has frustrated me so much

Pull the other one.