Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

[Trix]

Feel this is somewhat generous - they weren't showing consistent improvement when they had 14 points after 14 games in 19/20, or when they didn't qualify for Europe for the first time in decades, or when they opened 21/22 with three defeats and zero goals.

If you twist and turn it enough you can manipulate any "footballing stats" to fit your narrative.......................


See now I've said that, I'll have to point out that is isn't true. DId you outscore the opposition(doesn't matter how you do it)?.....and how many points/trophies did you end the season with. They are the only stats I really give a monkey's about because they are the only ones that really matter, and they can't be manipulated in any way. They litterally are what they are. Yes I love to see good football but who cares if Arsenal lost 3 games in a row at the start of 21/22,? Like genuinely why are you posting such an irrelevant piece of information, like to prove what point? Yeah so what he lost 3 games in a row.

Christ I remember Fergie's first season and it was a miracle he survived it. He then went on to do miraculous things so by that logic every team that is thinking they should sack their manager because they are stinking the place out, should in fact keep them because there is a really great chance they have the next Alex Fergusson on their hands because of the similarities? No........ Why is that? I'll tell you why because hundreds of clubs all over the world since then have done that and got themselves relegated.


Look if you like Ange great, praise him up, If you don't then that's fine too. I like him but am still on the fence as to whether I want him here long term because pretty football(at times) isn't enough for me. One thing that needs to stop though is the constant comparison with Arteta because it is pointless due to dozens upon dozens of different variables. Yes he could come good like Arteta appears to have, but he could equally not, and actually go on to achieve fuck all. How Arteta has done isn't a blueprint for anything without everything else being the same too.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

Why do people keep saying it doesn't matter where we finish this season? It 100% bloody matters. It makes a difference to who wants to stay, on the quality of player we can bring in, how much we can pay for them and wages, and whether or not we can give a competitive squad meaningful game time. Completely ridiculous notion that league position is irrelevant as long as there is nice football.

There's not a cat in hells chance Ange is still here next year if we finish 8th-9th/out of Europe, and you can quote me on that.

Surely it depends how he does in the cups?

If we finish 8th and win a treble I’d say there would be a dog in Ibiza’s chance he stays.

 

[DiscoD1882]

If you twist and turn it enough you can manipulate any "footballing stats" to fit your narrative.......................


See now I've said that, I'll have to point out that is isn't true. DId you outscore the opposition(doesn't matter how you do it)?.....and how many points/trophies did you end the season with. They are the only stats I really give a monkey's about because they are the only ones that really matter, and they can't be manipulated in any way. They litterally are what they are. Yes I love to see good football but who cares if Arsenal lost 3 games in a row at the start of 21/22,? Like genuinely why are you posting such an irrelevant piece of information, like to prove what point? Yeah so what he lost 3 games in a row.

Christ I remember Fergie's first season and it was a miracle he survived it. He then went on to do miraculous things so by that logic every team that is thinking they should sack their manager because they are stinking the place out, should in fact keep them because there is a really great chance they have the next Alex Fergusson on their hands because of the similarities? No........ Why is that? I'll tell you why because hundreds of clubs all over the world since then have done that and got themselves relegated.


Look if you like Ange great, praise him up, If you don't then that's fine too. I like him but am still on the fence as to whether I want him here long term because pretty football(at times) isn't enough for me. One thing that needs to stop though is the constant comparison with Arteta because it is pointless due to dozens upon dozens of different variables. Yes he could come good like Arteta appears to have, but he could equally not, and actually go on to achieve fuck all. How Arteta has done isn't a blueprint for anything without everything else being the same too.

Continuity with a manager brings success. Spending on players that suit a system you wish to play. Brings success. But it doesn’t in one or two windows. That is the comparison with Arteta. Whether you like it or not. There wasn’t a great deal of improvement for years under Arteta. But they did stick with him. And now they are all of a sudden challenging for the league. Over multiple seasons. Theres not any form of luck I. That. They have got rid of players who didn’t fit the system. And bought players who have. Where as our constant change over the last 5/6 years has seen us replaced by them? And other teams. Ange may not be that person. But let’s be honest every other manager (apart from. Espiritu) was the next saviour.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

Not the same thing at all though. The only genuine like for like equivalence I can see between the two are that there is a chunk of fans unhappy with parts of how they played early on, and another chunk saying "trust the process". Only time will tell if things are indeed similar in their trajectories.

I know people keep using Arteta as some sort of yardstick equivalence, but it's not like they stuck with him without seeing constant consistent improvement. 56 points first season, 61 in his second followed by 69, 84 and 89. This also equates to 8th plus FA cup, consolidation of 8th but with more points in his first full season, jump from 8th to 5th, jump from 5th to second, then consolidation again but with more points.

If Ange finishes outside of the European places it will have meant we have gone backwards where as Arteta has only ever improved.

I feel you’re looking at this a little too simplistically, Ange got 66pts last season and came 5th, so if he gets say 60pts this season and we finish 8th in a really tight league but get to semi finals of say EL and FA Cup and our performances on the whole are quite good just not entirely consistent enough then he’ll be gone.

I don’t agree as overall improvements would’ve been shown overall and we might be just say 2-3 big missing pieces away from it really clicking and going up a major level.

Anyway let’s see how it all plays out.

 

[Styopa]

Ange may not be that person. But let’s be honest every other manager (apart from. Espiritu) was the next saviour.

That's for sure, especially with Mourinho and Conte, but to a lesser extent with Ramos, AVB, and Pochettino. All were meant to lead us into a bright future, yet Pochettino was the only one who truly delivered that.

That doesn’t mean we should automatically stick with a coach when things are going wrong, but the odds of the next manager being the one to finally get it right aren’t great. If we sack Ange, he’d just be the latest in a string of disappointments, Pochettino being a rare outlier.

 

[RuskyM]

See now I've said that, I'll have to point out that is isn't true. DId you outscore the opposition(doesn't matter how you do it)?.....and how many points/trophies did you end the season with. They are the only stats I really give a monkey's about because they are the only ones that really matter, and they can't be manipulated in any way. They litterally are what they are. Yes I love to see good football but who cares if Arsenal lost 3 games in a row at the start of 21/22,? Like genuinely why are you posting such an irrelevant piece of information, like to prove what point? Yeah so what he lost 3 games in a row.

Cos you were saying he was showing continuous improvement. It certainly didn't feel like that to Arsenal fans, which is why so many wanted him gone.

 

[Mr Pink]

Cos you were saying he was showing continuous improvement. It certainly didn't feel like that to Arsenal fans, which is why so many wanted him gone.

Nearly all fans wanted Arteta gone in his second/third season.

And Im pretty sure, if it hadnt been for Covid and empty stadiums, they may well of got their wish.

 

[mil1lion]

Surely it depends how he does in the cups?

If we finish 8th and win a treble I’d say there would be a dog in Ibiza’s chance he stays.

I think it will be similar to Ramos in that he would stay but will need to start the following season well

 

[Guntz]

I’m sure with the amount of money spent, Levy will be expecting for us to finish in the European places at a minimum.

Although you could definitely argue that we should have signed a few more senior players to slot into the starting 11.

So I do feel for Ange in that regard.

 

[ajspurs]

I feel you’re looking at this a little too simplistically, Ange got 66pts last season and came 5th, so if he gets say 60pts this season and we finish 8th in a really tight league but get to semi finals of say EL and FA Cup and our performances on the whole are quite good just not entirely consistent enough then he’ll be gone.

I don’t agree as overall improvements would’ve been shown overall and we might be just say 2-3 big missing pieces away from it really clicking and going up a major level.

Anyway let’s see how it all plays out.

Yeah that's the thing, I would much rather us add the 2 or 3 big missing pieces and finally finish the jigsaw which we never seem to do, than to start all over again with someone else. The fact of the matter is that we're still severely short of the required quality in a few areas. There are certainly variables that can dictate whether this would be the best course of action or not, and I do think certain elements of the football currently being played has to improve, but it would also take a steep decline of our football for me to not want to go down this route.

The only problem I see with this is that with those that we have in charge, it's probably more likely that those 2 or 3 big missing pieces never arrive.

 

[mil1lion]

The reality is that we've signed players to peak in a few years time. Will he get that few years time? I still have the funny feeling he will last until some point next season and a new manager will do better but partly because the players are more developed.

 

[Trix]

Cos you were saying he was showing continuous improvement. It certainly didn't feel like that to Arsenal fans, which is why so many wanted him gone.

But we aren't talking about the fans, we are talking about the Board reaction.

You are now using small sample sizes to emphasise points that you and others desperate to defend Ange at every turn are telling everyone they definitely shouldn't do.......aren't you? I'm the one saying that Arsenal have looked at it from an overall season POV when deciding to keep him because season upon season he 100% did improve as a points total.

So throwing that up is again pointless when the discussion's original point was me saying "If we finish the season 8th-9th and win no trophies I would expect him to go because we'll have gone backwards".

 

[mattstev2000]

Personally I think we have a squad of players that shouldn't be lower than sixth come the end of the season. So anything less than that and I'll find it another disappointing performance from Ange.

 

[mabolsa_ritchey]

Ange will be here until it starts to hit Levy in the pockets. We lose out on European funds due to league placement, or we start seeing regular games where the stadium isn’t selling out, then he’ll be gone.

 

[Teegart]

I think a big issue in our discussions is the definition of just what “progress” is. Everyone views it differently.

Me personally, I want Ange to succeed and was willing to allow a lot of grace last season as it was his first. He was trying to bed in the system and style above all else. Totally accept that and know there was going to be a fair few bumps in the road.

So going into this season I had 3 main objectives I wanted to see

- Show we can win with this style away to top half teams. So my yardstick was City, Arsenal, Liverpool, utd, Chelsea, Villa, Brighton and West Ham. Last season we had a record of P9 W1 D4 L4, for a total of 7 points from 27.
- Show we can be tactically astute within games, ensuring when we are up we don’t continue to be too open and instead playing smarter (not defensive) football to see out games. This is what all the top teams are able to do, take the sting out of games. Essentially, if needs be, win ugly when we have to. No team blows away every opponent for 90 mins every game, not unless you have Peps Barca team.
- Rotate effectively and ensure we don’t have an A team and a B team type scenario.

For me, this is the year two improvements I wanted to see. Essentially I view these as the “tweaks” that we assumed year 2 would bring. The ability to be more specific game by game.

If we see clear signs of the above 3 objectives happening, I’m still be very happy giving him as much time as he needs, even if we don’t win a cup this year or end up 4-6th, as it would give me the comfort to know that with more time and recruitment Ange would get us to where we want to be.

 

[Hercules]

But we aren't talking about the fans, we are talking about the Board reaction.

You are now using small sample sizes to emphasise points that you and others desperate to defend Ange at every turn are telling everyone they definitely shouldn't do.......aren't you? I'm the one saying that Arsenal have looked at it from an overall season POV when deciding to keep him because season upon season he 100% did improve as a points total.

So throwing that up is again pointless when the discussion's original point was me saying "If we finish the season 8th-9th and win no trophies I would expect him to go because we'll have gone backwards".

If he gets that long

 

[ClonedFromSandrosBeard]

Imo he should get the end of the season. Based on how we've been playing I would expect things to even out and we'd be in a better position than last season.

I really think we've played well more than we haven't.

 

[mil1lion]

Most of the time it comes down to the players. If he loses the players then it won't last but the players seem to love him so I don't see it happening.

 

[McFlash]

I hate playing West Ham, always raise the game for us, it’s the early kick off too. LIVE ON SKY….. I fear it tbh.

Where do you find a kangaroo at shot notice?

I can't help with kangaroos but there are some wallabies just down from the road from me.
It's probably best off the start small and build up @riggi

 

[RuskyM]

But we aren't talking about the fans, we are talking about the Board reaction.

You are now using small sample sizes to emphasise points that you and others desperate to defend Ange at every turn are telling everyone they definitely shouldn't do.......aren't you?

Got to be honest: I'm not sure.