Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

[PaulM]

You can do the mental gymnastics on it till the cows come home, but he improved his league points total year on year, and I'm saying that's why their board stuck by him despite the fans reaction. If they had the same fan reaction and also watched the team drop 3 places he'd definitely have been sacked imo. That's the point here. If Ange finishes outside of Europe and doesn't win a cup he will have gone backwards, it's that simple.

Not really mental gymnastics. Arsenal expect much higher than 8th so they won't have sat there thinking "he's gotten us 5 points more than last year, great". They made the decision to stick with him regardless of a really poor finish for their club.

If Ange "goes backwards", in terms of tangible results or points totals, that's still not an open and shut case on sacking him in my view.

 

[Donki]

We can't compete by doing things the same way as some of the other clubs(yet but that may not be too far off) but I mean it was literally 5 years ago we were competing seriously for the Premier league. We can't compete by doing things the same way as some of the other clubs

Doesn't matter what you or I accept, not that we'd accept the same thing. Mediocrity tied up with a nice bow won't be enough for me, and definitely won't be for Levy after what we've spent. We can debate all day long whether we have spent enough or how it has been spent, but again that is irrelevant. Levy doesn't believe we have the 8th/9th best squad, and that's all that will really matter when push comes to shove.

We were competing for the PL cause other teams/clubs were in transition. The only way u win or even compete in the PL is by money. Yes arsenal are doing well but we hey are doing it way ahead of our stadium rebuild. We are playing catch up.

 

[Donki]

Not really mental gymnastics. Arsenal expect much higher than 8th so they won't have sat there thinking "he's gotten us 5 points more than last year, great". They made the decision to stick with him regardless of a really poor finish for their club.

If Ange "goes backwards", in terms of tangible results or points totals, that's still not an open and shut case on sacking him in my view.

We cannot continue to sack and employ.

 

[RuskyM]

I know people keep using Arteta as some sort of yardstick equivalence, but it's not like they stuck with him without seeing constant consistent improvement. 56 points first season, 61 in his second followed by 69, 84 and 89. This also equates to 8th plus FA cup, consolidation of 8th but with more points in his first full season, jump from 8th to 5th, jump from 5th to second, then consolidation again but with more points.

Feel this is somewhat generous - they weren't showing consistent improvement when they had 14 points after 14 games in 19/20, or when they didn't qualify for Europe for the first time in decades, or when they opened 21/22 with three defeats and zero goals.

 

[Donki]

Feel this is somewhat generous - they weren't showing consistent improvement when they had 14 points after 14 games in 19/20, or when they didn't qualify for Europe for the first time in decades, or when they opened 21/22 with three defeats and zero goals.

I’m as bad as the rest, scum fans 2-4 seasons ago wanted him gone, the bored gone. Football fans are fickle as fuck, now they are the challengers, funny old game.

 

[Mr Pink]

I disagree slightly in that I think we’ve got a really good squad. Not perfect by any means and obviously still work to do but Solanke was a great buy and I think Gray should be playing more regularly than he is plus we had the foundations of a very good squad anyway that all should’ve been getting better/more used to how Ange wants them to play.

I’m not so sure the board/Levy will see it like that in terms of the difference between is this style/manager going to take us forward and league position, I think they’ll see it as pretty similar but I think you’re right, the question you want to ask is, is this manager and brand of football going to get us to where we want to be in another year or 2 and we shouldn’t focus to much on league position, but that obviously has limits which is why I said it’s easier to do that with a 5th/6th place finish than it is with a 9th/10th place finish.

Yeah there's a few ways to view this.

But from the boards perspective I think theyll give Ange more lattitude if they feel there is discernible progress in what he's trying to do even if we're encoutering more bumps than they would like at this stage.

So looking at the bigger picture is crucial.

So even if we dont beat last years finish, it will be the 'feel' of it all in terms of reviewing progress and where we're heading.

I mean if we continue to lose against the better teams its not going to look good.

 

[E17yid]

Yeah there's a view ways to view this.

But from the boards perspective I think theyll give Ange more lattitude if they feel there is discernible progress in what he's trying to do even if we're encoutering more bumps than they would like at this stage.

So looking at the bigger picture is crucial.

So even if we dont beat last years finish, it will be the 'feel' of it all in terms of reviewing progress and where we're heading.

I mean if we continue to lose against the better teams its not going to look good.

Yeah, we’ll just have to wait and see how the land lies in the summer.

Sadly, though, having a poor start puts the pressure on early doors whereas last season our unbelievable start brought him a lot of time when our league form from nov onwards became pretty shit.

I can’t see our league form being so bad that they have to start asking questions before Christmas but he is in the situation now where, as I said earlier, losses against West Ham and Villa with draws against Ipswich and Palace would probably make Levy start getting the Rolodex out.

 

[RuskyM]

I’m as bad as the rest, scum fans 2-4 seasons ago wanted him gone, the bored gone. Football fans are fickle as fuck, now they are the challengers, funny old game.

And honestly you couldn't have blamed them: they were truly atrocious for a lot of 20/21. I firmly believe he kept his job because of the Kroenke's apathy rather than a conscious decision. (I'd also argue fans would've hounded Arteta out over 20/21, but maybe their home record wouldn't have been so bad if fans were there in the first place).

I think it also kind of shows that winning a trophy isn't necessarily a silver bullet that gives you a lot of grace with fans, much as we want it to be: Ten Hag suggests that, Moyes too.

 

[Styopa]

Not really mental gymnastics. Arsenal expect much higher than 8th so they won't have sat there thinking "he's gotten us 5 points more than last year, great". They made the decision to stick with him regardless of a really poor finish for their club.

If Ange "goes backwards", in terms of tangible results or points totals, that's still not an open and shut case on sacking him in my view.

I agree. These things need to be looked at in context.

Last season, we finished with 66 points, which is an improvement of 6 points from the previous season, despite having sold our key player. In fact, we've only surpassed 66 points once in the last five seasons:

• 60 points (22/23)
• 71 points (21/22)
• 62 points (20/21)
• 59 points (19/20)

Arsenal on the other hand, finished 5th with 70 points the season before Arteta and finished 8th with 56 points during Arteta's first partial season. Because Arsenal’s points total was so low during Arteta's first partial season, there was more room for improvement in the following year.

Incidentally, Arsenal had already accumulated 18 points from 13 matches when they sacked Emery, putting them on pace to finish with around 53 points that season. Things have worked out well for them in the end, but Emery might have gotten them back on track anyway. He led the club to 70 points in his only full season there, which was an improvement of 7 points compared to the season before.

 

[E17yid]

And honestly you couldn't have blamed them: they were truly atrocious for a lot of 20/21. I firmly believe he kept his job because of the Kroenke's apathy rather than a conscious decision. (I'd also argue fans would've hounded Arteta out over 20/21, but maybe their home record wouldn't have been so bad if fans were there in the first place).

I think it also kind of shows that winning a trophy isn't necessarily a silver bullet that gives you a lot of grace with fans, much as we want it to be: Ten Hag suggests that, Moyes too.

It isn’t a silver bullet for fans who have won loads of FA cups in recent years but for Spurs fans? Nah. If we won the FA cup last year or do it this year Ange is automatically promoted to legend status at this club whereas at clubs like UTD and Arsenal, who have won them a lot more recently, it’s not such a big deal.

 

[Mr Pink]

Yeah, we’ll just have to wait and see how the land lies in the summer.

Sadly, though, having a poor start puts the pressure on early doors whereas last season our unbelievable start brought him a lot of time when our league form from nov onwards became pretty shit.

I can’t see our league form being so bad that they have to start asking questions before Christmas but he is in the situation now where, as I said earlier, losses against West Ham and Villa with draws against Ipswich and Palace would probably make Levy start getting the Rolodex out.

Yes there is no doubt results over the next few weeks could really shape where this season is heading.

West Ham and Villa at home look very, very big games now.

For me we do need to start to see some real consistency now.

 

[RuskyM]

Incidentally, Arsenal had already accumulated 18 points from 13 matches when they sacked Emery, putting them on pace to finish with around 53 points that season. Things have worked out well for them in the end, but Emery might have gotten them back on track anyway. He led the club to 70 points in his only full season there, which was an improvement of 7 points compared to the season before.

Interestingly, AVB's season is our third best PL season when it comes to points. Doesn't have a lot of relevance to your point but I find that amazing.

 

[E17yid]

Yes there is no doubt results over the next few weeks could really shape where this season is heading.

West Ham and Villa at home look very, very big games now.

For me we do need to start to see some real consistency now.

I look at all those games and think we shouldn’t lose any of them but being a Spurs fan I also think we could easily win none of them. (So 4 draws incoming)

 

[YB123]

Interestingly, AVB's season is our third best PL season when it comes to points. Doesn't have a lot of relevance to your point but I find that amazing.

Probably because Bale was the 3rd best player in the world, and the best in the league

 

[carpediem991]

We cannot continue to sack and employ.

It might be frustrating and everyone wants consistency but no head coach has a job guarantuee. If there is (next to) no improvement in the next months he needs to be questioned.

 

[Styopa]

Probably because Bale was the 3rd best player in the world, and the best in the league

You could say similar about Kane, who Poch, Mourinho and Conte all had the benefit of working with.

 

[Styopa]

It isn’t a silver bullet for fans who have won loads of FA cups in recent years but for Spurs fans? Nah. If we won the FA cup last year or do it this year Ange is automatically promoted to legend status at this club whereas at clubs like UTD and Arsenal, who have won them a lot more recently, it’s not such a big deal.

He might become a fan legend, but that wouldn’t save his job. Ramos was sacked not long after winning the League Cup, and Poch was let go despite back-to-back Champions League qualifications and reaching the Champions League final.

I know there are always other factors when a manager is dismissed, but if we finish 8th and win the FA Cup this season and are sitting 13th by Christmas next season, I can easily see Ange getting sacked. I don't think failing to win a trophy is a red line for Levy. I think falling outside of the top six is.

 

[E17yid]

He might become a fan legend, but that wouldn’t save his job. Ramos was sacked not long after winning the League Cup, and Poch was let go despite back-to-back Champions League qualifications and reaching the Champions League final.

I know there are always other factors when a manager is dismissed, but if we finish 8th and win the FA Cup this season and are sitting 13th by Christmas next season, I can easily see Ange getting sacked. I don't think failing to win a trophy is a red line for Levy. I think falling outside of the top six is.

Yeah, I agree. I was more thinking from a fan perspective.

 

[YB123]

He might become a fan legend, but that wouldn’t save his job. Ramos was sacked not long after winning the League Cup, and Poch was let go despite back-to-back Champions League qualifications and reaching the Champions League final.

I know there are always other factors when a manager is dismissed, but if we finish 8th and win the FA Cup this season and are sitting 13th by Christmas next season, I can easily see Ange getting sacked. I don't think failing to win a trophy is a red line for Levy. I think falling outside of the top six is.

Yep. If you offered Levy a League/FA Cup or Top4, he is taking top 4 every day. Complete loser.

 

[mil1lion]

I agree. These things need to be looked at in context.

Last season, we finished with 66 points, which is an improvement of 6 points from the previous season, despite having sold our key player. In fact, we've only surpassed 66 points once in the last five seasons:

• 60 points (22/23)
• 71 points (21/22)
• 62 points (20/21)
• 59 points (19/20)

Arsenal on the other hand, finished 5th with 70 points the season before Arteta and finished 8th with 56 points during Arteta's first partial season. Because Arsenal’s points total was so low during Arteta's first partial season, there was more room for improvement in the following year.

Incidentally, Arsenal had already accumulated 18 points from 13 matches when they sacked Emery, putting them on pace to finish with around 53 points that season. Things have worked out well for them in the end, but Emery might have gotten them back on track anyway. He led the club to 70 points in his only full season there, which was an improvement of 7 points compared to the season before.

We also have to consider last season we didn't play in Europe. Do we account for that if we get less points this season? We won 5 in a row which is a good run but 2 of them are in the Europa and 1 against Championship opposition. So those wins can make things look better overall when you factor total wins. In the league we have 3 wins, 3 losses and 1 draw which is not good enough. Across all comps we've won 6 and lost 3 which doesn't seem so bad. If we had that ratio in the league we could say win 22 lose 11 and draw 5 for 71 points which would be great and 4th last season. Win 16 lose 16 and draw 6 for 54 points is kind of the ratio we're on now would have got 9th last season.