Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

[Trix]

At the same time imagine if the Arsenal board had said the same? Very questionable that they'd still be looking like the second-best team in the league at this point as a result. IMO you finally put your foot down and give a manager what he needs. One thing I do wholeheartedly believe is that if we sack Ange and continue to not push the boat out and give the manager what he needs, the cycle will just continue.

Not the same thing at all though. The only genuine like for like equivalence I can see between the two are that there is a chunk of fans unhappy with parts of how they played early on, and another chunk saying "trust the process". Only time will tell if things are indeed similar in their trajectories.

I know people keep using Arteta as some sort of yardstick equivalence, but it's not like they stuck with him without seeing constant consistent improvement. 56 points first season, 61 in his second followed by 69, 84 and 89. This also equates to 8th plus FA cup, consolidation of 8th but with more points in his first full season, jump from 8th to 5th, jump from 5th to second, then consolidation again but with more points.

If Ange finishes outside of the European places it will have meant we have gone backwards where as Arteta has only ever improved.

 

[-Afri-Coy-]

We can't compete by doing things the same way as some of the other clubs(yet but that may not be too far off) but I mean it was literally 5 years ago we were competing seriously for the Premier league. We can't compete by doing things the same way as some of the other clubs

Doesn't matter what you or I accept, not that we'd accept the same thing. Mediocrity tied up with a nice bow won't be enough for me, and definitely won't be for Levy after what we've spent. We can debate all day long whether we have spent enough or how it has been spent, but again that is irrelevant. Levy doesn't believe we have the 8th/9th best squad, and that's all that will really matter when push comes to shove.

For once I agree completely with Levy.

If anything, we have one of the top 6 squads in the league in terms of youth, talent and potential.

Time will tell if it plays out the way we all hope, but we're certainly better off now than we were under Jose/Conte.

(Kane being the exception here, but removing that, Overall we have a stronger squad than we did 2 years ago.)

 

[Gilzeanking]

I appreciate we have spent a lot in recent years and would agree with this view even without my bias. But given we have (Solanke aside) focussed on youth in the summer, I’d have thought that would temper the expectations of our squad in the immediate term. So whilst we have got a squad that is better than 8th or 9th -

For me I don't see the buying of youth players this summer as Levy having a long term plan for Spurs future. That's a rose tinted glasses view of our leader.

He is an investor and bought these youngsters because he knew they were likely to appreciate in value imo.

 

[WiganSpur]

Why do people keep saying it doesn't matter where we finish this season? It 100% bloody matters. It makes a difference to who wants to stay, on the quality of player we can bring in, how much we can pay for them and wages, and whether or not we can give a competitive squad meaningful game time. Completely ridiculous notion that league position is irrelevant as long as there is nice football.

There's not a cat in hells chance Ange is still here next year if we finish 8th-9th/out of Europe, and you can quote me on that.

It will definitely matter to some degree but at the same time I don't think Levy will be blindly going off results either. I think how we finish the season and our cup performance will have quite a bit of an impact on any decision. It may be that in the second half of the season the penny drops for Ange and we start to see more consistent performances towards the end of the campaign. And I know Levy doesn't care about the domestic cups themselves, but it could give us an indication that league form could improve the following season. It would also be a more difficult sacking for Levy as Ange appears to be well liked in comparison to some of our previous managers.

I think things would have to look quite bleak for Levy to pull the trigger. If we're still seeing the same problems towards the end of the season, we don't get to any cup finals and we finish out of Europe then all that in combination could possibly make his mind up. But then it's also a question of who's available that would be an improvement and would be able to work effectively under ENICs shackles.

 

[PaulM]

Not the same thing at all though. The only genuine like for like equivalence I can see between the two are that there is a chunk of fans unhappy with parts of how they played early on, and another chunk saying "trust the process". Only time will tell if things are indeed similar in their trajectories.

I know people keep using Arteta as some sort of yardstick equivalence, but it's not like they stuck with him without seeing constant consistent improvement. 56 points first season, 61 in his second followed by 69, 84 and 89. This also equates to 8th plus FA cup, consolidation of 8th but with more points in his first full season, jump from 8th to 5th, jump from 5th to second, then consolidation again but with more points.

If Ange finishes outside of the European places it will have meant we have gone backwards where as Arteta has only ever improved.

That second season, he was lucky to survive. Finishing 8th again, even with a 5 point improvement, isn't good enough for a club like Arsenal.

Progress also won't always be linear and if you expect it to be, we'll be changing managers at least every 3 years and probably more frequently.

 

[felmani26]

Not the same thing at all though. The only genuine like for like equivalence I can see between the two are that there is a chunk of fans unhappy with parts of how they played early on, and another chunk saying "trust the process". Only time will tell if things are indeed similar in their trajectories.

I know people keep using Arteta as some sort of yardstick equivalence, but it's not like they stuck with him without seeing constant consistent improvement. 56 points first season, 61 in his second followed by 69, 84 and 89. This also equates to 8th plus FA cup, consolidation of 8th but with more points in his first full season, jump from 8th to 5th, jump from 5th to second, then consolidation again but with more points.

If Ange finishes outside of the European places it will have meant we have gone backwards where as Arteta has only ever improved.

Improvement can be measured in other areas as opposed to merely a higher league position in consecutive years but broadly speaking I agree.

It would be mightily refreshing to see us beating our contemporaries and being much more competitive in games against the likes of Chelsea for instance without us losing our collective heads - that for me would constitute improvement.

Ultimately we are in a results business and by extension, the board fundamentally wants us in the CL for the expected revenue first and foremost - if Ange falls way short then we know from experience what the usually spells under this ownership.

 

[Albertbarich]

the fans have zero say but I’ve been thinking about us as a group and we’re definitely shorter on patience, angry and less forgiving.

But that’s on levy. Years and year of promises to compete, game changing stadiums and yet here we are five years on from this stadium that feels less and less like ours but more of a multi purpose entertainment venue every day and we’re maybe even lower on the food chain with the emergence of villa and Newcastle and still talking about projects and building do the future. It’s like a broken record.

We improved the first team with one player in the summer. Just one. I love gray and bergvall but right now they aren’t ready to be first team regulars. It was an absolutely awful window . It’s left another manager short and here we all are doing the same song and dance about backing /sacking the manager because shock horror he isn’t perfect. It’s boring, the issue is so bloody obviously the head of the chain and yet here we are bickering about the same stuff we have been for 20 years.

If Ange goes then what? Do we get another winner in like tuchel? How long do you think he would tolerate levy’s bolllocks? Maybe we could go for a young superstar like Amorim but that would mean a change to 3 at the back and we only have 3 centre backs, and you think he would be backed? Would he f… maybe another project hahaha ok or we could just cut the pretence and get frank in , admit we just want someone to take what he is given and make it work by hook or crook. Love to see how that goes when we’re playing defensive , long ball football at home to Crystal Palace.

Every time we look close to top four levy stops. We never go beyond, we have no intention of stretching the wage bill to get top players in and every time some manager gets the hook and we just start the cycle again. I wonder where we would be if Kane hadn’t come along out of the academy. I bet poch wouldn’t have lasted half as long.

Ange isn’t perfect, he is struggling a bit but be honest. Look at our squad and is it really any better than mid table? Well upper mid table hopefully. But as a young squad with gaping holes we’re bound to be inconsistent, with second rate attackers of course we’re not clinical and with Europe added of course we’re picking up injuries.

I just think we’re performing to our level right now.

 

[WiganSpur]

For once I agree completely with Levy.

If anything, we have one of the top 6 squads in the league in terms of youth, talent and potential.

Time will tell if it plays out the way we all hope, but we're certainly better off now than we were under Jose/Conte.

(Kane being the exception here, but removing that, Overall we have a stronger squad than we did 2 years ago.)

The depth is a bit ropey in certain areas but I agree that it's a really solid squad for a manager with a progressive style. If Pep was our manager he'd probably have us in 3rd or 4th and challenging for the cups, so on that yardstick i'd say the squad is about 6th best.

 

[Trix]

That second season, he was lucky to survive. Finishing 8th again, even with a 5 point improvement, isn't good enough for a club like Arsenal.

Progress also won't always be linear and if you expect it to be, we'll be changing managers at least every 3 years and probably more frequently.

You can do the mental gymnastics on it till the cows come home, but he improved his league points total year on year, and I'm saying that's why their board stuck by him despite the fans reaction. If they had the same fan reaction and also watched the team drop 3 places he'd definitely have been sacked imo. That's the point here. If Ange finishes outside of Europe and doesn't win a cup he will have gone backwards, it's that simple.

 

[Trix]

the fans have zero say but I’ve been thinking about us as a group and we’re definitely shorter on patience, angry and less forgiving.

But that’s on levy. Years and year of promises to compete, game changing stadiums and yet here we are five years on from this stadium that feels less and less like ours but more of a multi purpose entertainment venue every day and we’re maybe even lower on the food chain with the emergence of villa and Newcastle and still talking about projects and building do the future. It’s like a broken record.

We improved the first team with one player in the summer. Just one. I love gray and bergvall but right now they aren’t ready to be first team regulars. It was an absolutely awful window . It’s left another manager short and here we all are doing the same song and dance about backing /sacking the manager because shock horror he isn’t perfect. It’s boring, the issue is so bloody obviously the head of the chain and yet here we are bickering about the same stuff we have been for 20 years.

If Ange goes then what? Do we get another winner in like tuchel? How long do you think he would tolerate levy’s bolllocks? Maybe we could go for a young superstar like Amorim but that would mean a change to 3 at the back and we only have 3 centre backs, and you think he would be backed? Would he f… maybe another project hahaha ok or we could just cut the pretence and get frank in , admit we just want someone to take what he is given and make it work by hook or crook. Love to see how that goes when we’re playing defensive , long ball football at home to Crystal Palace.

Every time we look close to top four levy stops. We never go beyond, we have no intention of stretching the wage bill to get top players in and every time some manager gets the hook and we just start the cycle again. I wonder where we would be if Kane hadn’t come along out of the academy. I bet pick wouldn’t have lasted half as long.

Ange isn’t perfect, he is struggling a bit but be honest. Look at our squad and is it really any better than mid table? Well upper mid table hopefully. But as a young squad with gaping holes we’re bound to be inconsistent, with second rate attackers of course we’re not clinical and with Europe added of course we’re picking up injuries.

I just think we’re performing to our level right now.

I don't think so.

 

[Jody]

Does anyone think Ange is at risk of being sacked in the very short term?

 

[Trix]

Does anyone think Ange is at risk of being sacked in the very short term?

No, and he shouldn't be either.

 

[Styopa]

Round and round with this. Standard answer is Lego head had won a cup by now. Also Lego head was young and learning.

Ange is pretty fixed and at 59 his adaptive abilities may not be at their best. We need him to adapt to the Prem imo.

I think the Arteta analogy is often stretched to its limits, and there are some significant differences, as @Trix pointed out above.

However, as a fan, I would support giving Ange a third season, even if we finish 8th or 9th this time around. Why? Because I don’t think one more season outside the top six will fundamentally change anything, just as finishing 4th under Conte didn’t lead to any real transformation.

We can say about players leaving, but the best players like Kane, Romero, Modric etc will always want to leave unless we become serious about competing for titles, and most of the rest will stay due to the wages we pay as a top Premier League club. And we are rarely in the market for established elite players, whether we are in the Champions League or not.

I think it would be worth the risk to invest in another season, especially considering our young squad. As a fan, I believe the potential rewards of everything "clicking" outweigh the risk of being outside of Europe for a season or two.

 

[-Afri-Coy-]

Does anyone think Ange is at risk of being sacked in the very short term?

Not if we manage to keep improving our form. But a few losses on the trot and I can see the board getting antsy.

(And before anyone extrapolates from this, no, I do not want him sacked.)

 

[Metalhead]

Does anyone think Ange is at risk of being sacked in the very short term?

No.

 

[Albertbarich]

Does anyone think Ange is at risk of being sacked in the very short term?

Lose a couple more and it starts looking like Europe is unlikely and the ground starts turning on levy as Werner misses chance after chance then who knows.

He absolutely shouldn’t be though

 

[-Afri-Coy-]

The depth is a bit ropey in certain areas but I agree that it's a really solid squad for a manager with a progressive style. If Pep was our manager he'd probably have us in 3rd or 4th and challenging for the cups, so on that yardstick i'd say the squad is about 6th best.

I think Ange could have us 3rd or 4th if he just started managing certain aspects of our game better.

We had a great run going, and the tactical changes were there for all to see.

When we reached half time against Brighton, he could've instructed the fullbacks to stay back and form a solid back 4 to protect our lead without stifling our attack for example.

I know it's a bit more nuanced than that, but you get the idea.

I don't want to repeat much of what has already been said since the weekend.

 

[E17yid]

Does anyone think Ange is at risk of being sacked in the very short term?

Depends what you mean by short term. I don’t think he’s under any threat at the minute but if he picks up 0-3 points from our next 4 games (West Ham, Palace, Villa and Ipswich) then he’ll be under big pressure going into the City game after that.

 

[felmani26]

I think the Arteta analogy is often stretched to its limits, and there are some significant differences, as @Trix pointed out above.

However, as a fan, I would support giving Ange a third season, even if we finish 8th or 9th this time around. Why? Because I don’t think one more season outside the top six will fundamentally change anything, just as finishing 4th under Conte didn’t lead to any real transformation.

We can say about players leaving, but the best players like Kane, Romero, Modric etc will always want to leave unless we become serious about competing for titles, and most of the rest will stay due to the wages we pay as a top Premier League club. And we are rarely in the market for established elite players, whether we are in the Champions League or not.

I think it would be worth the risk to invest in another season, especially considering our young squad. As a fan, I believe the potential rewards of everything "clicking" outweigh the risk of being outside of Europe for a season or two.

Overhauling the culture and mentality was always going to be continued effort that spans multiple seasons and (perhaps more pertinently) multiple transfer windows.

We must persevere!

 

[ajspurs]

Round and round with this. Standard answer is Lego head had won a cup by now. Also Lego head was young and learning.

Ange is pretty fixed and at 59 his adaptive abilities may not be at their best. We need him to adapt to the Prem imo.

IMO they would have stuck with him whether they won a cup or not, but that's only an opinion. Fair comment regarding him being young and as a result more adaptable though.

Not the same thing at all though. The only genuine like for like equivalence I can see between the two are that there is a chunk of fans unhappy with parts of how they played early on, and another chunk saying "trust the process". Only time will tell if things are indeed similar in their trajectories.

I know people keep using Arteta as some sort of yardstick equivalence, but it's not like they stuck with him without seeing constant consistent improvement. 56 points first season, 61 in his second followed by 69, 84 and 89. This also equates to 8th plus FA cup, consolidation of 8th but with more points in his first full season, jump from 8th to 5th, jump from 5th to second, then consolidation again but with more points.

If Ange finishes outside of the European places it will have meant we have gone backwards where as Arteta has only ever improved.

There are going to be differences and variables throughout. Just because Arteta managed what he did and in the way he did it, doesn't mean Ange would, and that also goes both ways in that even if Ange's trajectory isn't exactly like Arteta's, as in a cup and a slightly improved points tally, it doesn't mean that Ange won't eventually peak after a few years of commitment to him also. The point for me is more so finally sticking with a manager and showing him support regardless. Despite that cup and upwards point tally, Arsenal fans were still calling for his head at multiple points after that. They were not happy one bit with two 8th place finishes and bottling a CL place to their greatest rivals right at the end of a season.

Even Arteta point and the emphasis on a need for improvement aside, if Ange finishes below where he did last season I don't think it should equate to a sacking. I just don't think it's a black and white situation. Or rather it shouldn't be as such. If we don't add in January, finish 7th, but in the summer really push out to buy a quality CDM and established wide players, it's without a doubt a reason to stick with Ange and see what can do with that. If he fails after actually backing him by all means, sack the guy. We can't continue to give a manager half of what he needs and then sack him once he doesn't reach his goals.

I know we can only finish so low without him losing his job but It's why for me the underlying issue is still the board and the ambition that they are willing to show. If they don't want to back him to the necessary degree then they may as well just sack him, but we'll soon be in the same spot.