Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

[chelmyid]

The two elements don’t have to be mutually exclusive. It is more than possible (probably even obvious) that the players clearly got complacent and thought the game was done and likewise ange should have addressed it.
My worry is I imagine Ange would have felt in the dressing room at half time what the general attitude was and should have done something about it - I mean conceding in the first 2 mins would have cemented his thoughts surely! To then not make any changes until the game had gone is just as criminal as those players not turning up in the second half.
I also actually understand his comments about the players having to understand something to be able to learn from it - but that’s very high risk when you haven’t had the best start to a season.

Whatever way it’s dressed up, it’s a shit show - but at this point - not one that should mean tearing everything up and starting ‘yet’ again

 

[Styopa]

let’s say the players fail and Ange views certain players are not mentally strong enough. That means having to sell them and get superior replacements or at least just get superior replacements. That is feasible at Arsenal, City and Chelsea but our club that is difficult. If players a,b,c fail we are still stuck with them for probably a few transfer windows at least.

This will always be the underlying issue. "Backing" a manager isn't just about giving them time; it’s about providing them with the best resources to succeed. People often criticise Conte, Ange, or Pochettino for being too stubborn, but we consistently expect the coach to adapt to the owner's agenda, rather than the other way round. When things inevitably go wrong, the coach is sacked, but we knew their philosophies when we hired them. Yet we still asked them to change to fit our vision and when they can't adapt to that we sack them.

We hired Nuno, for god’s sake—knowing full well the style of football he was known for. When it predictably turned out to be unpopular, we sacked him. But what did we expect? That he’d suddenly show up and deliver the swashbuckling style fans were craving? Nuno was sacked simply for being Nuno.

 

[RuskyM]

This will always be the underlying issue. "Backing" a manager isn't just about giving them time; it’s about providing them with the best resources to succeed. People often criticise Conte, Ange, or Pochettino for being too stubborn, but we consistently expect the coach to adapt to the owner's agenda, rather than the other way round. When things inevitably go wrong, the coach is sacked, but we knew their philosophies when we hired them. Yet we still asked them to change to fit our vision and when they can't adapt to that we sack them.

We hired Nuno, for god’s sake—knowing full well the style of football he was known for. When it predictably turned out to be unpopular, we sacked him. But what did we expect? That he’d suddenly show up and deliver the swashbuckling style fans were craving? Nuno was sacked simply for being Nuno.

He did look eminently sackable tbf. Like the captain of a sinking ship.

 

[Wheeler Dealer]

The whole team disappeared in the second half. Not sure it's fair to call anyone in particular out, except maybe Romero and Udogie, who were just pathetic

I dread half-times when we are so dominant, as most managers make a few tweeks and all of a sudden we lose complete control of the game..

 

[ljinko888]

I've mentioned several times my big worry about this style of football is we can get turned over defensively. In fact this game was a good example because not many teams have the quality or the depth of attacking talent Brighton do therefore when they had the momentum they just ran with it and never gave it up. This style of play requires us to either be really ruthless which we weren't in the first half or he has to adjust when the onus is on the opposition to push players forward as in the second half. I've seen Pep do this many times away from home when City have a comfortable lead just try and run the clock down with slow possession. It's not exciting but it wins them titles.

 

[Mr Pink]

That's not our model though. There's no profit to be made and they'll command high salaries.

And therein lies the problem.

Not enough flexibility in the model to bring in top drawer experienced pro's.

 

[talkshowhost86]

Because frankly you’re just throwing a temper tantrum because we lost. Throwing out comparisons to Brendan for heavens sake. Get a grip.

You’re better than this.

I literally explained my comparison.

If you don't want to engage with it fair enough but its a bit petty to simply accuse someone of having a 'temper tantrum' rather than actually responding.

 

[Danny1]

He didn't have to, he chose to, to suit his fairly extreme form of football. Just as Conte didn't have to persist with his approach that required elite level wingbacks when we had none in the squad.

I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. Here is a list of the players that have left Tottenham since Ange became manager:

Hojbjerg / Emerson / Perisic / Solomon (loan) / Skipp / Sanchez / Lo Celso / Rodon / Dier / Ndombele / Tanganga / Sessegnon / Gil (loan) / Winks / Lucas / Lloris / Kane.

Now the only player there that Ange would want would be the obvious in Kane. Now with those players above we won nothing with Mourinho & Conte, two managers who have a very real & good habit of winning wherever they end up. What that goes to show is that they are / were not good enough players that had to be moved on.

Let's now list the players he has signed:

Werner (loan) / Vicario / Dragusin / VDV / Maddison / Johnson / Yang / Bergvall / Odobert / Gray / Solanke.

That list shows that we have really only permanently signed two players with any long time experience in Solanke & Maddison. Vicario albeit 27 is only in his 4th season in top flight football. We have brought in a lot of young players.

Lastly, let's look at who is left of the squad he inherited:

Reguilon / Sonny / Bissouma / Richy / Udogie / Romero / Forster / Deki / Porro / Spence / Sarr / Bentancur / Davies

Again, I would say that if Reguilon, Bissouma, Forster, Richy & Davies were to leave not many people on here would be bothered.

Personally I would saying having to move on 17 players already from a squad of 25/26 would constitute a pretty significant rebuild. Then if you think there are still another 5 to go quite comfortably that is definitely a huge squad shift in little over a year. Ange has only been here for 15 months!

What we need is to buy a couple of experienced heads in vitial positions in my opinion, LB & CM being very key for me.

 

[talkshowhost86]

Agree it's a worry but one player won't change that. It's the team mentality

It's partly mentality but I'd argue even more about coaching.

What on earth were the coaching team saying at half time yesterday? Because the team very much came out as if the job was done.

And then once the tide shifted, Ange did absolutely nothing to try to stop it.

Their manager changed the game with his decisions and his tactics whilst Ange did little/nothing to change personnel or approach.

And it's far from the first time we've seen that.

 

[cookiemonster]

Mitoma was giving us problems even in the first half

A decent manager would have Johnson or Kulu double up on him. But no..we are who we are" don't want to win unfairly " carried on with his inverted fullbacks and left us wide open on the flanks

Can't wait for him to be gone

 

[riggi]

I’d like to be falsely rewarded.

 

[nico97531]

Lots of people are focusing & getting irate about Ange's comments on subs, just wondering did you watch the post match press conference or just read the quotes? Sometimes context gets lost in quotes.

Question about subs was midpoint of conference, Ange had continuously stated 2nd half no show was unacceptable, his team stopped competing. A journalist then asked about subs, it sounded to me that Ange didn't want to downplay how bad we were, the whole team downed tools, not just 1 or 2 players.

It was a poorly worded response, unlike Ange, but he looked disgusted & shocked at what happened. I took it that he didn't want to talk about subs as he didn't want to distract from the main issue...collectively the team didn't turn up for the 2nd half. Stopped pressing, lost 50-50's & gave up.

Personally I still have faith Ange will improve this club, what success follows, no one knows. But last week & 1st half yesterday showed glimpses of what this team can achieve. I am still hopeful Ange can integrate the younger players & really push this club forward....even after yesterday's 2nd half.

Yes the team collapsed, that’s the issue on the field, but a manager’s job during the game is to at least try to halt the collapse and change the tide with changes and instructions, not just stand there shaking his head.
This feels like he had given up the match as the players did.

And I don’t buy the idea that he didn’t want to distract from the main issue, anyone who had watched the match knew we had a huge issue, the whole response sounded a lot like someone trying to deflect blame, as it’s his responsibility to be making those changes that may give us a chance to get something from the game,

all this crap about “not wanting an undeserved reward” is the most ridiculous thing I have heard in a long time. does he plan on doing the same if we are in a cup final? The reality is that he fucked it up just like the players did.

 

[PLTuck]

I'm as gutted as the next man but Brighton are a very good team, we got complacent and got punished for it. Thats the long and short of it.

I was worried from early on when Romero completely lost Welbeck at 1-0 and Welbeck probably should have scored. He's experienced now, not a young defender anymore. World Class defenders don't routinely switch off.

Subs should have come earlier but yet again theres people going on about pragmatism and plan B's etc. You have been told over and over and over again for over a year now that he ain't gonna change.

 

[talkshowhost86]

"We lost all our duels, we weren’t competitive and if you're not competitive, irrespective of what you do tactically, it is not going to work."

This is the quote that worries me the most from Ange's comments yesterday.

It feels as if he's entirely putting the blame on the players and not accepting that he could have done anything to change things.

 

[Oh Teddy Teddy]

Mitoma was giving us problems even in the first half

A decent manager would have Johnson or Kulu double up on him. But no..we are who we are" don't want to win unfairly " carried on with his inverted fullbacks and left us wide open on the flanks

Can't wait for him to be gone

Not heard from you in a few weeks

 

[nico97531]

Solanke was great for the first 45 mins, but disappeared for the last 45 minutes, as did Johnson.

Solanke was actually the only one still trying to press in the second half when everyone backed off into our own half, he disappeared because he was isolated up the top against three defenders with no support.

 

[Styopa]

I keep saying this but the idea that any fan base is somehow unique is nonsense.

I remember united fans boasting about sticking with their manager and continuity. Well that’s easy to do when you win the title almost every year. Now they’re in the same struggle that most of us are in.

Considering the lack of success versus prices were a really easy going fanbase. We don’t protest, the only person we have ever really gone for is Campbell and the ground is nearly always full.

Liverpool are a huge club and if slot doesn’t deliver they will want him out soon enough. Didn’t they hound Hodgson out?

Exactly. I mean how much patience did Liverpool fans really have to show while Klopp was reaching two finals in his first partial season and finishing fourth in his first full season?

In Klopp’s first partial season, Liverpool ended with 60 points, and the following season, they improved to 76 points—a 16-point jump. The next year, they finished with 75 points but made it to the Champions League final. In his first two and three-quarters seasons, Klopp led them to two European finals, a domestic final, and consecutive fourth-place finishes. Are we supposed to be impressed by how patient Liverpool fans were during this period of sustained improvement and multiple cup finals?

However, not all managers have had the same success as Klopp. Hodgson lasted only about six months, club legend Dalglish managed just two seasons, and Rodgers was let go after three seasons, despite finishing second in his second year and playing some scintillating football. Where was the patience for those managers? Were they hounded out by a fickle fanbase?

 

[Trix]

Solanke was great for the first 45 mins, but disappeared for the last 45 minutes, as did Johnson.

As did Bentancur, Udogie, VdV, Romero, Werner. I mean the list goes on.... Anyone who has coached or played knows subs are more than just replacing players. It's fresh legs, a chance to change shape or tactics, if nothing else a chance to take a sting out of the oppositions momentum, or get instructions to others out on to the pitch. I'd genuinely like him to come out and explain in depth what he meant in his press conference, and why he waited so long.

It very much looked like a case of 'Nero fiddling whilst watching Rome burn' to me, and a reasonable explanation is the only way I'm going to change my view.

 

[E17yid]

It’s just the chaos that is doing my head in. And while I like attacking football (coz as Ange says it’s generally the most sustainable way to success) I just don’t see how, amongst all the chaos, this is going to lead us to a period where we are relatively successful.

I think Ange has probably come to the realisation by now that the league is gone so his only hope is getting a cup but I don’t see how leaving is so open and being “entertaining” is going to win us a cup (unless we get really lucky)

I disagree with people saying there’s clear signs of progress from last year. Before I kinda thought we just hit a plateau like last season when we were generally shit from Nov onwards but I think we’ve actually regressed as a team.

Still early days and all that but the signs aren’t good.

 

[talkshowhost86]

I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. Here is a list of the players that have left Tottenham since Ange became manager:

Hojbjerg / Emerson / Perisic / Solomon (loan) / Skipp / Sanchez / Lo Celso / Rodon / Dier / Ndombele / Tanganga / Sessegnon / Gil (loan) / Winks / Lucas / Lloris / Kane.

Now the only player there that Ange would want would be the obvious in Kane. Now with those players above we won nothing with Mourinho & Conte, two managers who have a very real & good habit of winning wherever they end up. What that goes to show is that they are / were not good enough players that had to be moved on.

Let's now list the players he has signed:

Werner (loan) / Vicario / Dragusin / VDV / Maddison / Johnson / Yang / Bergvall / Odobert / Gray / Solanke.

That list shows that we have really only permanently signed two players with any long time experience in Solanke & Maddison. Vicario albeit 27 is only in his 4th season in top flight football. We have brought in a lot of young players.

Lastly, let's look at who is left of the squad he inherited:

Reguilon / Sonny / Bissouma / Richy / Udogie / Romero / Forster / Deki / Porro / Spence / Sarr / Bentancur / Davies

Again, I would say that if Reguilon, Bissouma, Forster, Richy & Davies were to leave not many people on here would be bothered.

Personally I would saying having to move on 17 players already from a squad of 25/26 would constitute a pretty significant rebuild. Then if you think there are still another 5 to go quite comfortably that is definitely a huge squad shift in little over a year. Ange has only been here for 15 months!

What we need is to buy a couple of experienced heads in vitial positions in my opinion, LB & CM being very key for me.

This is all spot on and it should be noted that the task Ange inherited was massive.

I don't think anyone is expecting him to have finished the job already...and if they are that's unrealistic.

But none of that should deflect from the very very fair criticism of his approach during matches. Regardless of the rebuilding process we should have had the squad to win that game yesterday, particularly from a position of 2-0 up.

The fact that we didn't isn't to do with needing more time to rebuild. It's to do with poor match management.