Let's All Laugh At... let's all laugh at United

[philll]

Unsurprising... Normally there's a bit of uncertainty but I haven't seen a single pundit say it should've been a red since the match.

 

[Tucker]

Unsurprising... Normally there's a bit of uncertainty but I haven't seen a single pundit say it should've been a red since the match.

Alex Crooks on Talksport said he thought it was a red, and I agree. He clearly makes a movement to lash out after the slip.

Harsh maybe but I think he meant it despite the slip.

 

[philll]

Alex Crooks on Talksport said he thought it was a red, and I agree. He clearly makes a movement to lash out after the slip.

Harsh maybe but I think he meant it despite the slip.

He definitely flicked his leg up after he'd slipped but if that contact (heel/ankle to shin) had happened in isolation it would've probably been a yellow for a cynical foul. If he'd connected with studs that'd be something else altogether.

 

[Tucker]

He definitely flicked his leg up after he'd slipped but if that contact (heel/ankle to shin) had happened in isolation it would've probably been a yellow for a cynical foul. If he'd connected with studs that'd be something else altogether.

Maybe, but at that point he was out of control anyway, so it would be a red for recklessness.

 

[Mr Pink]

There was definitely intent to swipe at Maddison though.

 

[robotsonic]

Oh well! Right decision on the night for me.

More than happy to see cynical fouls like this red carded all day long. The idea that they become a red if it's denying a goal scoring opportunity just adds yet another layer of subjectivity that people get riled up about.

Would far rather every obviously cynical foul was harshly punished and have them all stopped as they bring nothing whatsoever to anyone's enjoyment of the game.

 

[luRRka]

I don't think the appeals process should be allowed for a subjective decision. If its like last man dogso but a new angle shows there was no foul or something then fine

 

[Reece_Spurs]

There was definitely intent to swipe at Maddison though.

So? Since when did intending to purposefully stop a player mean a red card? It's cynical and a yellow.

It's not a red, it's not quite high enough, not really enough force and didn't lead with studs so it can't be a red.

Last season VAR would have sent the ref to the monitor and it would have been downgraded to a yellow 100%. They seem extremely persistent this year on going with the refs on field decision though which is why the red stood.

We would all be fuming if it happened to any of our players.

It was petulant and silly for sure, and it's made easier to believe it's a red because it's rat face, but it's simply just not a red.

The persistence on letting the on field decisions stand though will start looking stupid if more appeals start standing though.

 

[Mr Pink]

So? Since when did intending to purposefully stop a player mean a red card? It's cynical and a yellow.

It's not a red, it's not quite high enough, not really enough force and didn't lead with studs so it can't be a red.

Last season VAR would have sent the ref to the monitor and it would have been downgraded to a yellow 100%. They seem extremely persistent this year on going with the refs on field decision though which is why the red stood.

We would all be fuming if it happened to any of our players.

It was petulant and silly for sure, and it's made easier to believe it's a red because it's rat face, but it's simply just not a red.

The persistence on letting the on field decisions stand though will start looking stupid if more appeals start standing though.

Im just pointing out there was intent, and if he hadnt slipped he could well of done him with the studs more up.

It wasnt just trying to stop Maddison you could tell it was frustration from being totally outplayed.

It probably wasnt a red, the slip saving him, but its hardly a huge injustice either.

 

[Dillspur]

So? Since when did intending to purposefully stop a player mean a red card? It's cynical and a yellow.

It's not a red, it's not quite high enough, not really enough force and didn't lead with studs so it can't be a red.

Last season VAR would have sent the ref to the monitor and it would have been downgraded to a yellow 100%. They seem extremely persistent this year on going with the refs on field decision though which is why the red stood.

We would all be fuming if it happened to any of our players.

It was petulant and silly for sure, and it's made easier to believe it's a red because it's rat face, but it's simply just not a red.

The persistence on letting the on field decisions stand though will start looking stupid if more appeals start standing though.

While I agree it wasn't a red, it was high and his studs were up, he was fortunate that he only caught him with the side of his ankle/heal. It could have been way worse

 

[rossdapep]

I find it bizarre that yanited, or any club for that matter, place so much value on backing a man who clearly is showing nothing.

All 20 of their titles have been won under just 3 managers. You back the right one. Most are not the right one though.

Kneejerking is obviously not the thing to do, I've always wanted Ange to see his contract out before the club considers deciding one way or the other for example, a slide towards relegation notwithstanding, but the fact that Fergie came good after several years of struggling seems to have them trapped them in this cycle of persevering with managers who are clearly showing no signs of progress - regression even. All on the off-chance he might come good as Fergie did at the eleventh hour.

The thing is, Ten Hag has already won them two cups. There is no kickstart into a glorious new league era coming with him.

Getting the managerial hire matters above any and all other considerations at all clubs not able to subvert the entire national footballing infrastructure and governance to their favour *glances at Spain's big two*

My brother is a United fan and one of the few who keeps quoting the Fergie situation as a reason to not get rid.

I admire his refusal to not get swept up in knee jerk fans who want coaches out after first sign of trouble but I am seeing nothing from Ten Hag to suggest he is worth persevering with.

Firstly, Fergie was much more clearer, assured and direct with his management/speeches. Which showed he can inspire.

Ten Hag fumbles his way through talks and relies on the same buzz words and doesn't even really explain anything tactically. (Look at how Slot is so assured when he speaks)

Secondly, football is so different today. I think you could bide your time a bit back then and wait for one team's era to falter and slip in (Fergie did and then grabbed a stranglehold once he did).

You can't do that now because there are several clubs fighting for that and the club leading (City at the moment) are showing no signs of disappearing.

The other factor is that Ten Hag probably doesn't fit with INEOS or Ashworth's vision. I highly doubt they'd pick him out if they were looking for a coach.

So it really is a case of just delaying the inevitable.

Lastly, Juande Ramos and George Graham are our last 2 cup winners and nobody can say they were ever going to be a long term success for us.

I do think Ten Hag is a good coach, he definitely showed that at Ajax as he took the talent they had and took them further then anyone else. He also had to rebuild and did well.with that too (they were exciting to watch and Ajax have had other coaches who've made them less so)

My feeling though is that Ten Hag is just not cut out for the PL. It's too intense, it's too fast, there's no Canon fodder to build confidence in a system as easily, you don't get a few comfortable weeks where you have easier games after European/domestic cup adventures. Your club are not trotted off around the globe in preseason.

I just think Ten Hag came to the PL, tired to play his way, got those hidings so ditched his philosophy and is afraid to try it again in case he takes a few whooping and loses everyone.

Yet that's happening anyway

 

[Misfit]

My brother is a United fan and one of the few who keeps quoting the Fergie situation as a reason to not get rid.

I admire his refusal to not get swept up in knee jerk fans who want coaches out after first sign of trouble but I am seeing nothing from Ten Hag to suggest he is worth persevering with.

Firstly, Fergie was much more clearer, assured and direct with his management/speeches. Which showed he can inspire.

Ten Hag fumbles his way through talks and relies on the same buzz words and doesn't even really explain anything tactically. (Look at how Slot is so assured when he speaks)

Secondly, football is so different today. I think you could bide your time a bit back then and wait for one team's era to falter and slip in (Fergie did and then grabbed a stranglehold once he did).

You can't do that now because there are several clubs fighting for that and the club leading (City at the moment) are showing no signs of disappearing.

The other factor is that Ten Hag probably doesn't fit with INEOS or Ashworth's vision. I highly doubt they'd pick him out if they were looking for a coach.

So it really is a case of just delaying the inevitable.

Lastly, Juande Ramos and George Graham are our last 2 cup winners and nobody can say they were ever going to be a long term success for us.

I do think Ten Hag is a good coach, he definitely showed that at Ajax as he took the talent they had and took them further then anyone else. He also had to rebuild and did well.with that too (they were exciting to watch and Ajax have had other coaches who've made them less so)

My feeling though is that Ten Hag is just not cut out for the PL. It's too intense, it's too fast, there's no Canon fodder to build confidence in a system as easily, you don't get a few comfortable weeks where you have easier games after European/domestic cup adventures. Your club are not trotted off around the globe in preseason.

I just think Ten Hag came to the PL, tired to play his way, got those hidings so ditched his philosophy and is afraid to try it again in case he takes a few whooping and loses everyone.

Yet that's happening anyway

Right. Demanding instant success is not usually realistic, even for a club like Yanited coming off an era that will for the rest of our lives at least define the club as a domestic giant and a European force. Demanding to see some, even if small, signs of progress into the 3rd season is hardly unreasonable though. Even if it only meant a relatively pedestrian league finish etc. You would hope there'd be some kind of identity now that he's had 6 windows to remake the squad in his image etc.

 

[midoshairband]

best of both worlds - we got the benefit of them going down to 10, but now their best player is back which gives them a better chance of beating Villa.

 

[rossdapep]

Right. Demanding instant success is not usually realistic, even for a club like Yanited coming off an era that will for the rest of our lives at least define the club as a domestic giant and a European force. Demanding to see some, even if small, signs of progress into the 3rd season is hardly unreasonable though. Even if it only meant a relatively pedestrian league finish etc. You would hope there'd be some kind of identity now that he's had 6 windows to remake the squad in his image etc.

Yeah. Especially since he's signed 5 players (6 if you include Amrabat) that he previously coached.

 

[philll]

best of both worlds - we got the benefit of them going down to 10, but now their best player is back which gives them a better chance of beating Villa.

On the other hand, he's had a particularly bad start to the season and has been the target of their fans' ire for several matches. They were hoping to not see him for a few games so Ten Hag would be forced to try something else.

 

[Guernman]

The thing is, while it was certainly harsh in as much as he didn’t make contact with his studs, that was just down to luck. Having slipped, he very intentionally kicked out at Maddison at a point when he had no control over his body and momentum

 

[eppingyid]

From memory I think bissouma got sent off for less at forest last season

 

[Reece_Spurs]

My brother is a United fan and one of the few who keeps quoting the Fergie situation as a reason to not get rid.

I admire his refusal to not get swept up in knee jerk fans who want coaches out after first sign of trouble but I am seeing nothing from Ten Hag to suggest he is worth persevering with.

Firstly, Fergie was much more clearer, assured and direct with his management/speeches. Which showed he can inspire.

Ten Hag fumbles his way through talks and relies on the same buzz words and doesn't even really explain anything tactically. (Look at how Slot is so assured when he speaks)

Secondly, football is so different today. I think you could bide your time a bit back then and wait for one team's era to falter and slip in (Fergie did and then grabbed a stranglehold once he did).

You can't do that now because there are several clubs fighting for that and the club leading (City at the moment) are showing no signs of disappearing.

The other factor is that Ten Hag probably doesn't fit with INEOS or Ashworth's vision. I highly doubt they'd pick him out if they were looking for a coach.

So it really is a case of just delaying the inevitable.

Lastly, Juande Ramos and George Graham are our last 2 cup winners and nobody can say they were ever going to be a long term success for us.

I do think Ten Hag is a good coach, he definitely showed that at Ajax as he took the talent they had and took them further then anyone else. He also had to rebuild and did well.with that too (they were exciting to watch and Ajax have had other coaches who've made them less so)

My feeling though is that Ten Hag is just not cut out for the PL. It's too intense, it's too fast, there's no Canon fodder to build confidence in a system as easily, you don't get a few comfortable weeks where you have easier games after European/domestic cup adventures. Your club are not trotted off around the globe in preseason.

I just think Ten Hag came to the PL, tired to play his way, got those hidings so ditched his philosophy and is afraid to try it again in case he takes a few whooping and loses everyone.

Yet that's happening anyway

Good post.

I'd love to see a sort of like Marvel timeline shift where managers like Ferguson and Wenger managed the Utd and Arsenal teams of today and how they'd do, how much the actual managerial side of things compared with the older school tactics, usually 4-4-2 in the English leagues.

We never really saw an attacking 4-3-3 formation until Mourinho first got his squad together, Makelele being one of the first true defensive midfielders with 2 infront of him and wide attacking forwards. It was revolutionary at the time because everyone played 4-4-2 or a defensive 5-3-2 or 3-5-2. It looked very defensive on paper but was the catalyst for most other teams adopting that formation or atleast a version.

Wasn't too long before Ferguson and Wenger also went to 4-3-3 variations.

What I mean is, i'd love to see, say Fergusons best Utd team playing 4-4-2 with Beckham right, Giggs left, Keane, Scholes in the middle, Van Nistelrooy and Rooney upfront, classic no nonsense defence with Van Der Sar in goal, up against a modern day high pressing team like ourselves, would be really intersting.

 

[philll]

 

[KingNothing]

ten Hag: "For a longer period we are in a transition time here at Manchester United. From the moment I came in, we knew we had to change. We had to replace some older players, bring new players in. Our choice was to bring young players in..."

But, in his first transfer window as United manager, he brought in 30 years old Eriksen and Casemiro. The next season he brought in 35 year old Jonny Evans. He also mentions that he and the club had to change things. Everyone, neutrals and Man United fans, knew that they could not continue with Maguire at centre back and as captain. What does he do? Takes the armband from Maguire, DOESN'T sell him, and gives it to an even worse captain in Bruno Fernandes. Amazing.

ten Hag: "It takes time to get the messages on board, to get a game model on board, to introduce a new culture. That takes all time. But in the meantime you have to win and I think we have proven the last two years we win. And I've proven in my career always I will win. The last six years, I have eight trophies. So we have to embed the game model, we have to embed a stronger team as we have now, so we have to work on our problems, give the solutions and we have a good potential on players so once it's embedded we will go where, we will drive, and then I'm sure we will achieve the targets we have set for this season."

So he admits that they have won two trophies while not playing the way he actually wants them to play. This is his third season, and he is still telling the media that he and his players need more time to adapt. This is shocking, especially when compared to Ange, who got us playing his way immediately. Our first competitive win under Ange actually came against ten Hag's United when we beat them 2-0 last season. This was only Ange's second Prem game.

ten Hag: "Nothing is easy, but there is nothing for me to panic about because I experience it so often with my teams during seasons that you are facing those problems. So we can sort them out, this team can sort this out, and when it's in a fixable area we can sort those problems out."

Must be great to have a manager who admits that he is used to heavy defeats and playing sh*t football, and this does not bother him one tiny bit. So when will he sort this out? During his 4th or 5th season perhaps?

I actually wanted us to appoint him as our manager before we got Nuno. Now I'm glad we didn't. Because, unlike Ange, this guy is terrified to actually implement his style of play from (from Ajax). Perhaps it was because he saw how it went for Frank de Boer at Crystal Palace in 2017. But his hesitancy regarding style of play has not helped him as much as he would have liked. They are a team that looks to have no obvious game plan with or without the ball. And this is three season in!