Jose Mourinho

[lemony snickets]

Who would you have started in midfield?
Hojbjerg was suspended, Lo Celso is returnin from injury and Ndombele can't seem to stay on his feet longer than 12 seconds.

Whilst I agree any combination would have been better the options were limited and we have a game on Sunday

Our strongest and best team mate, not our worst CB pairing and Winks and Moussa. The leagues gone, this was our only saving grace. Lo Celso could’ve started that game and so should’ve Ndombele. My point is that he picked players that he knows aren’t playing for him, in our most important game of a shite season.

 

[slartibartfast]

Everyday I look in here in the hope to read he's gone.
Still here then.
Maybe a stuffing from Villa will be the final nail. Very good odds on a Villa win btw if you wanna get something out of the misery.

 

[Betha]

What concerns me about Mourinho is not that the usual suspects continue to disappoint - the likes of Winks, Sissoko etc -

I know you wrote more, and I agree on a lot, but I think this subject is interesting.

In my mind, there is hardly a way for Harry Winks to be succesful in a Mourinhoteam. Winks do have plenty of qualities, but none are similar to N'dombele and his ability to break through lines with the ball, and he doesn't have the ballwinning abilities of Højbjerg. On the other hand, he is very good when on the ball, and very good at moving the ball quickly. Our system (if it qualifies as one) is all based on individuals making decisions on the run, and not a lot is structured. Thus, Winks is put in a position where his major skill is close to unusable. To move the ball quickly you have to know in advance where your teammates are, or are going to be. Then you can make decisions based upon a lot of factors. When you first have to find out where your teammates are, and if they are making a run, then it's hardly possible to factor in where there are options to attack and so on. Furthermore, when you are such a player, and you're not put into a system, then playing every now and then, and with different teammates around you all of the time, really doesn't make it easier to shine.

Now, is Winks the second coming of Hoddle? No, of course not. Is Harry Winks a really good midfielder, who could thrive in a role that is suited to his skills? Yes, and he has shown that. He might not be the most ambitious midfielder ever, but he doesn't have to be necessarily. Can he be blamed for his so called dissapointing performances? I, at least, do not think he has been given a chance to actually perform.

 

[spids]

Who would you have started in midfield?
Hojbjerg was suspended, Lo Celso is returnin from injury and Ndombele can't seem to stay on his feet longer than 12 seconds.

Whilst I agree any combination would have been better the options were limited and we have a game on Sunday

Personally I’d have started with Ndombele, Sissoko and Lo Celso in CM and Toby and Sanchez at CB. I wouldn’t have had Winks, Dele or Dier anywhere near the starting XI based purely on form.

 

[Shadydan]

But the core players aren’t the problem are they? I thought it’s just a few bad eggs like winks? Sorry I find it confusing as to who these problem players are.

No the culture of the club is the problem meaning its easy for the players to down tools, look at Chelsea for example, their players always down tools for the manager when they don't like him, in fact it happens at near enough every club when they don't fancy the manager or are unhappy.

It's not merely about individuals, it's about the collective mentality, some players will play for personal pride and respect, some players will not play because they are out for themselves or lazy. What you're seeing at Spurs is a clear separation of those who are trying to play for the badge and some who are not.

I don't think this is a particular concept to grasp, ask yourself how a team can go from being top of the league to where we are now in a few months? What Jose's methods of coaching are only good for 3 months? How do you ever get to a point where players stop running for a manager in the middle of the season?

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

Obviously the Mourinho thing just hasn't worked out, for whatever reason but not just one reason. IMO there's a number of reasons, not all to be laid at Jose's door.

So what we're seeing now is micro arguing. This is Jose's fault, no, it isn't, but that is Jose's fault, yes well possibly, but only because this or how about so and so, he didn't do this or that.

It hasn't worked and it's highly likely that he'll be gone at some point between now and the end of the season. Meanwhile, the arguing over the fine details of what is and isn't down to him and to what degree it's the players or the manager carries on at speed.

It's a wood for the trees thing but it's entertaining for sure

 

[slartibartfast]

Our strongest and best team mate, not our worst CB pairing and Winks and Moussa. The leagues gone, this was our only saving grace. Lo Celso could’ve started that game and so should’ve Ndombele. My point is that he picked players that he knows aren’t playing for him, in our most important game of a shite season.

I post after the Arsenal game he doesnt seem to know his red flag players. By that I mean the ones whose name you see in the starting line up and go 'oh dear.'
Imo these are the following, Doherty, Sanchez (still but not the worst and getting better, marginally), Dier, Winks, Sissoko.
He started the match with 4 of the 5!
Winks and Sissoko have been a disaster for a long time. I haven't checked but I would imagine the results of matches with those 2 starting are shocking.
Dier is done Jose. Accept it.
Recently he's split up Doherty and Davies so we have at least 1 attacking full back on the pitch. Unfortunately this match needed both with that cluster fk in midfield.
He's toast. He just doesnt know it yet.
I just hope he's gone before the final or we're gonna be humiliated.

 

[rez9000]

Well. We managed to attract Poch, then Jose, so recent evidence indicates yes. If media are to be believed, JN is/was interested. We'll see is the cliché of choice. Ps. I do think it is an attractive gig. Difficult yes, but not impossible to win things.

I'm not entirely convinced it's the setup for Mourinho. Otherwise why try and shift Dele at all? But as you say, we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Stamford]

1. Be Poch.
2. You keep playing Dele.
3. You get to Champions league final.
4. Get sacked

5. Be Jose.
6. Exile Dele from the team.
7. Get knocked out of Europa scrub league.
8. Get given more money in the summer, because being knocked out of the Europa League, Fa Cup, and struggling in the PL is all Dele's fault.

nonsense. Should have been sold post champions league, hasn't shown up for a few seasons.Stop rewarding mediocrity.

 

[rez9000]

No?

I am saying that it is Jose's personal management style.

I'd hope they don't "teach it on UEFA courses" as I think it is a shit way to try and get people playing well for you.

I'm not convinced that that is his style. The idea that if you make one mistake you're dropped has been shown to be false - look at Rodon. He made a mistake against Liverpool and was selected for the next game.

I don't deny that he's a demanding coach, but that doesn't make him different to any number of other coaches out there.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

The question isn’t really keep players/get rid of Mourinho vs. sell players/keep Mourinho. This is a red herring of a way to run the debate. Do the player clear out. The doesn’t mean you have to keep Mourinho. Anyway pointless to keep going on as if it’s a battle.
Mourinho clearly going sometime between now/summer.

 

[lemony snickets]

I post after the Arsenal game he doesnt seem to know his red flag players. By that I mean the ones whose name you see in the starting line up and go 'oh dear.'
Imo these are the following, Doherty, Sanchez (still but not the worst and getting better, marginally), Dier, Winks, Sissoko.
He started the match with 4 of the 5!
Winks and Sissoko have been a disaster for a long time. I haven't checked but I would imagine the results of matches with those 2 starting are shocking.
Dier is done Jose. Accept it.
Recently he's split up Doherty and Davies so we have at least 1 attacking full back on the pitch. Unfortunately this match needed both with that cluster fk in midfield.
He's toast. He just doesnt know it yet.
I just hope he's gone before the final or we're gonna be humiliated.

Yep, you missed out Dele, over paid wimp with nothing about him. And not starting Reggy on the left. I’d love to see a stat on Ben Davies passing accuracy this season. I know we depended too much on him this year, but he’s never been as bad for us in previous campaigns. Just play your strongest team in the most important games, it’s not rocket science is it. Like you, I cringe when I see those names in my teams starting line up.

 

[Albertbarich]

You miss my point.

When Jose came in there was an initial bounce, now they've reverted to how they were towards the end of Poch's reign. If these players had stayed on the same curve for Jose then they would had stayed as demotivated as they were under Poch in his final season. Players showing nothing in the league but getting up for the Champions League for example.

This season you can't go from being top of the league and flying earlier in the season to relegation form 4 months later and put that all down to the manager - this is a clear trend.

That last season under Poch we finished fourth.

I dont think its as simple as they're not turning up. Pochs cycle had come to an end. I think the group including him and his coaching team were tired and stale , that final broke them all. It broke me I know that.

We went into the next season had a bad bad start and in comes mourinho. It went well until kane got injured, he then produced some of the most turgid dogshit offensive displays I've ever seen. Chelsea away where he made no attempt to win the game, leipzig away the same. Embarrassing.

Post restart it got better as kane was back.

This season its absolutely possible to drop off and think the manager is largely at fault. That ultra defensive style was always going to get found out at one point, you need more about you than that, of course it did and since then he has been throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks.

By all means blame the players but ultimately its the manager who is responsible otherwise he wouldn't get paid the money he does and they could just let Ryan Mason pick the team and put the cones out.

 

[LeParisien]

And so will you be when in 18 months time those same players start delivering the same shit again. That's two managers running this has happened to and unless there's a clearout and changes to the whole attitude of the club, it'll happen to the next guy too.

Pochettino got our best ever league finishes and to a champions league table playing great and improving football for 3/4 years first. So that’s not at all analogous to what we’ve seen with Mourinho. Of course things went sour with Poch in the end, that’s why he’s not here. But those players played for him and did very well for a long time before we came to the end of a cycle and a change was necessary.

What the hell good are we going to say about the Mourinho cycle?

 

[E17yid]

No the culture of the club is the problem meaning its easy for the players to down tools, look at Chelsea for example, their players always down tools for the manager when they don't like him, in fact it happens at near enough every club when they don't fancy the manager or are unhappy.

It's not merely about individuals, it's about the collective mentality, some players will play for personal pride and respect, some players will not play because they are out for themselves or lazy. What you're seeing at Spurs is a clear separation of those who are trying to play for the badge and some who are not.

I don't think this is a particular concept to grasp, ask yourself how a team can go from being top of the league to where we are now in a few months? What Jose's methods of coaching are only good for 3 months? How do you ever get to a point where players stop running for a manager in the middle of the season?

I agree about modern day football culture and player power but as you alluded to this is a football thing not a Spurs thing. Collective mentality is key as you say and something Jose was meant to change, indeed any manager is challenged with trying to change players collective mindsets.

We were where we were as a bit of a fluke to be honest. It was the start of the season after all. Weird shit normally goes on at the start of the season.

 

[HodisGawd]

The Villa game. How much bearing on that will there be when it comes to Mourinho's job?

What will win, lose or draw mean if anything?

 

[LeParisien]

I agree about modern day football culture and player power but as you alluded to this is a football thing not a Spurs thing. Collective mentality is key as you say and something Jose was meant to change, indeed any manager is challenged with trying to change players collective mindsets.

We were where we were as a bit of a fluke to be honest. It was the start of the season after all. Weird shit normally goes on at the start of the season.

Tbf i don’t think you need to concede the player power point. The managers core job is to get the most out of the players at his disposal. If personal pride were enough you wouldn’t hire a manager. Just get the chairman to select some players and their personal pride will get results.

If a manager cannot get the best out of the players, including keeping them motivated towards a common goal, then he has failed at his job. Nothing else matters with respect to the manager.

Mourinho has failed at his job.

 

[ohtottenham!]

Against Arsenal and Zagreb are we now questioning the style of play and the tactics? Are we saying the manager set them up incorrectly or to play in a reserved system. Or did almost ever member on here agree with the team that started on Sunday and very few disagree with who started on Thursday? If we're asking who could do a better job and talking about Pep and Nagelsman's tactics then we're saying the players executed Jose's plan correctly.But we have the captain coming out and saying that's not the case.

The matches were lost and the performances an embarrassment because the players had not enough desire, effort and drive to perform at their best. Clearly when they realised they were losing they stepped it up in the last 10 minutes of both matches. It was a lazy performance and for me that is not a tactical issue. You can try to blame the manager but he's not on the pitch with them. If they worked hard and were overrun I'd say he's responsible but they didn't work hard they were awful in terms of effort and work. A new manager is not going to affect that.

My position is that Jose should stay and in the summer we clear out those players that don't want to perform. I'd even rather promote academy players to first team status than wait for ready made replacements before selling. I genuinely don't want to see half that bench play for us after the summer.

And I would also want Levy to come down to training this morning and tell the players that the manager stays and he's got the full support of the club. Any player that wants to leave the club should say now and we'll start looking for buyers for the summer whilst they play out the season in the U23s

There’s a huge disconnect between what the players are seemingly “told” and what we see in front of our eyes in terms of execution. Just with the Arsenal game, think there was unanimous surprise and concern, with good reason, that Doherty was RB, and that he was paired with Bale on that flank.

That issue was never properly resolved till it was too late. Whatever messy press we had was consistently engaged in our own half most of the time. Why? We lost all initiative, basically handed it to Arsenal.

They had our CMs pulled out of position along with our defensive backline; and then simply exposed our vulnerability and lack of any strategy when we did have possession. Arsenal simply pressed, and it was simple, and we had no coherent strategy to beat the press, constantly coughed up the ball, rinse and repeat…

All the while, our own considerable attacking strengths were nullified because we couldn’t even get the ball to our forwards; little evidence of any plan in possession from defence re transition/movement and ball progression to actually provide a threat further up the pitch.

This, to me at least, isn’t just about some troublesome players and discontent within our squad, which I also believe to be the case, but it’s fundamentally about coaching to get the best out of the group you have. The Arsenal game was a lead up to Zagreb; I didn’t expect the result on Thursday, but I did expect another poor performance.

We do need our overdue rebuild, but Jose and his coaching team haven’t shown nearly enough to give us faith they should oversee that project!

 

[Shadydan]

That last season under Poch we finished fourth.

I dont think its as simple as they're not turning up. Pochs cycle had come to an end. I think the group including him and his coaching team were tired and stale , that final broke them all. It broke me I know that.

We went into the next season had a bad bad start and in comes mourinho. It went well until kane got injured, he then produced some of the most turgid dogshit offensive displays I've ever seen. Chelsea away where he made no attempt to win the game, leipzig away the same. Embarrassing.

Post restart it got better as kane was back.

This season its absolutely possible to drop off and think the manager is largely at fault. That ultra defensive style was always going to get found out at one point, you need more about you than that, of course it did and since then he has been throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks.

By all means blame the players but ultimately its the manager who is responsible otherwise he wouldn't get paid the money he does and they could just let Ryan Mason pick the team and put the cones out.

Poch got sacked because we were lying in 14th and our league form since the start of the year was poor.

I did say that the buck stops with the manager hence why I don't think he is the man to take us forward, I have my reasons why...but my point comes down to motivation and mentality, you can give me all the fanciful reasons as to why we drop off but no one can tell me that these players are doing all they can when I see a clear trend in their behaviors with the last 2 managers and listening to that Lloris interview.

 

[Shadydan]

I agree about modern day football culture and player power but as you alluded to this is a football thing not a Spurs thing. Collective mentality is key as you say and something Jose was meant to change, indeed any manager is challenged with trying to change players collective mindsets.

We were where we were as a bit of a fluke to be honest. It was the start of the season after all. Weird shit normally goes on at the start of the season.

Fluke? lol Yeah I think it's probable best to agree to disagree on this one.