Ivan Toney

[rawhide]

He's not really a dickhead, he's arrogant but then so are a lot of top players too. I think people see him that way for how he didn't seem to own his suspension and then the way he spoke about leaving (although I think that was no worse than Kane talking with Neville). The most important thing will be for Ange to speak with him and make his decision.

There was also the “Fuck Brentford “ video - and considering the lambasting that fans have given some of our players for not “respecting the club/shirt/whatever” I would think this would count as disrespect and something that a “dickhead” might do.

 

[Farmdog]

Reading this if Toney signs for Spurs, there’ll be about 51% of members here no longer supporting the club, given the disdain for a bloke they’ve never met or likely ever will

 

[k1cks77]

Reading this if Toney signs for Spurs, there’ll be about 51% of members here no longer supporting the club, given the disdain for a bloke they’ve never met or likely ever will

No i will always support the club and want him to do well for us, but unless he suddenly donates 90% of his wages to charity and saves ten kids from a burning orphanage whilst he is going to for a stroll, i will still think he is an arrogant self serving knob head with the disrespect he has constantly shown brentford these past two years.

(football wise i think he would be a very good player for us, just heavily dislike his character).

 

[spursfan1976]

A thousand times this. Where's this love for Toney come from all of a sudden?

Have we forgotten our "No dickhead" policy when it comes to signing players? And that's not amongst the fans, it's the players.

The guys the bellend and I don't want him near our club.

Wouldn't be the first time, we were a failed medical away from signing John Hartson back in the day!

 

[Cinemattis]

Most top atheletes are egoistic and selfish individuals. They have to be, to become elite in their chosen sport. This can often be seen as being "arrogant".

In sports with obscene amounts of money and salaries, like football and American pro sports like NFL, NBA, etc., it is very easy and I´d say quite human to become self-absorbed as well. If I earned tens or hundreds of thousands of pounds per week, I wouldn´t trust myself to not come across as a bit of a twat or a bellend tbh.

A large majority of these players sacrifice a "normal" upbringing to reach the top level. And more than most come from below average and/or poor backgrounds (financially). They don´t go to normal schools from an early/pre teen age, they live their lives and most importantly their formative years as teenagers and young men in a totally different environment than most of us do. Even though clubs have developed massively in these areas over the last 2-3 decades, it is still an environment which is extremely competitive and focused on success. Nice blokes end last - it is that simple. Some are probably much better at disguising their competitive nature in social life, and some just have a charming personality or the gift of the gab that will help them come across as nice people. But they are - and I know this is generalising - very simple people with little experience of anything you and I would call "normal life".

Ivan Toney doesn´t come across as a very nice character to most. He´s arrogant, he does stupid things ("I hate Brentford"), and he´s an addict (that publicly at least) doesn´t want to admit that he is an addict, face his problems, own them and show real remorse. His public personae is jsut not very easy to like for most people.

I used to live in the UK for several years, and I do know that the English and British culture when it comes to what a man should be, differs quite a lot from say what the Scandinavian male role model is. English men shouldn´t cry or be seen as soft in any way. And especially not a tough and hard footballer! Football is not what it was back in the days of Leeds United of the late 60s and early 70s. Or like it was with Wimbledon´s crazy gang. Roy Keane would most certainly have set a new record for red cards in a season and matches missed because of bans if he played today. But football is still a contact sport, and the British players come from a culture where they see themselves as hard men. In the 2020s that doesn´t come across as well as it did only a few years ago. I would imagine that the "hard" male role model would be even more crucial in working class environments where still most of the players come from.

All that said: I found some interesting stuff on Toney that I didn´t know. From Wikipedia:

(..) he asked a chant sung by Peterborough fans about the size of his genitalia to be changed to make it more family-friendly.
+
While at Brentford, the club stopped taking a knee against racism; Toney said that players were being "used as puppets" to make the gesture while society did not change.[60] He also faced online racist abuse over the season.[61] Following Brentford's decision to take the knee for the 2021–22 Premier League season alongside the other 19 clubs, Toney said he would not join his colleagues and would continue to stand.

These two examples at least to me shows that there are more things to Toney than maybe most of us know.

There is one thing I´ve been thinking about lately. I don´t mean to offend anyone, and I would love to get some thoughts about this from others. We´ve heard the stories from Danny Rose and others, and most remember the ugly treatment Saka got after the 2021 Euros. Toney is a man of colour. He´s bound to have experienced a lot of racist abuse through his life. That, I would imagine, would also do something to a person. Born and raised in Northampton with (according to internet sources) less than a 5% black population. It is also the city in its county with the highest crime rate, with a crime rate of 130 per 1,000 people.

Is he easier to sign off as a bad apple because the colour of his skin? Would we like him more if he was white (or a bit fairer in his skin tones)? Or if he was funny, easy going and charming?

I´m absolutely NOT implying that anyone here or elsewhere dislike Toney because of the colour of his skin. I´m simply asking - introspectively as much as anything else - if we would accept and/or like him more if he was white? How much shit and abuse have Sandro Tonali of Newcastle got for his ban after betting/gambling?

Personally I´m still against signing Toney. Because of his age (28 - he is a year older than Richarlison); because of his far than prolific goal scoring bar the one season for Brentford; and because I don´t see him as a good fit for our kind of play; Brentford plays an almost 100% different kind of football than we do; and because I´ve never seen him as front presser and industrious worker up front (but have to admit I haven´t seen him that much, so I´d listen to other opinions); and finally because of the gambling thing - one more case, and he´s looking at a ban that would maybe be career ending for him plus the fact that as far I´ve seen, he hasn´t really faced up to his problems (which then again make it all stink of addiction a long way).

 

[HildoSpur]

Most top atheletes are egoistic and selfish individuals. They have to be, to become elite in their chosen sport. This can often be seen as being "arrogant".

In sports with obscene amounts of money and salaries, like football and American pro sports like NFL, NBA, etc., it is very easy and I´d say quite human to become self-absorbed as well. If I earned tens or hundreds of thousands of pounds per week, I wouldn´t trust myself to not come across as a bit of a twat or a bellend tbh.

A large majority of these players sacrifice a "normal" upbringing to reach the top level. And more than most come from below average and/or poor backgrounds (financially). They don´t go to normal schools from an early/pre teen age, they live their lives and most importantly their formative years as teenagers and young men in a totally different environment than most of us do. Even though clubs have developed massively in these areas over the last 2-3 decades, it is still an environment which is extremely competitive and focused on success. Nice blokes end last - it is that simple. Some are probably much better at disguising their competitive nature in social life, and some just have a charming personality or the gift of the gab that will help them come across as nice people. But they are - and I know this is generalising - very simple people with little experience of anything you and I would call "normal life".

Ivan Toney doesn´t come across as a very nice character to most. He´s arrogant, he does stupid things ("I hate Brentford"), and he´s an addict (that publicly at least) doesn´t want to admit that he is an addict, face his problems, own them and show real remorse. His public personae is jsut not very easy to like for most people.

I used to live in the UK for several years, and I do know that the English and British culture when it comes to what a man should be, differs quite a lot from say what the Scandinavian male role model is. English men shouldn´t cry or be seen as soft in any way. And especially not a tough and hard footballer! Football is not what it was back in the days of Leeds United of the late 60s and early 70s. Or like it was with Wimbledon´s crazy gang. Roy Keane would most certainly have set a new record for red cards in a season and matches missed because of bans if he played today. But football is still a contact sport, and the British players come from a culture where they see themselves as hard men. In the 2020s that doesn´t come across as well as it did only a few years ago. I would imagine that the "hard" male role model would be even more crucial in working class environments where still most of the players come from.

All that said: I found some interesting stuff on Toney that I didn´t know. From Wikipedia:

(..) he asked a chant sung by Peterborough fans about the size of his genitalia to be changed to make it more family-friendly.
+
While at Brentford, the club stopped taking a knee against racism; Toney said that players were being "used as puppets" to make the gesture while society did not change.[60] He also faced online racist abuse over the season.[61] Following Brentford's decision to take the knee for the 2021–22 Premier League season alongside the other 19 clubs, Toney said he would not join his colleagues and would continue to stand.

These two examples at least to me shows that there are more things to Toney than maybe most of us know.

There is one thing I´ve been thinking about lately. I don´t mean to offend anyone, and I would love to get some thoughts about this from others. We´ve heard the stories from Danny Rose and others, and most remember the ugly treatment Saka got after the 2021 Euros. Toney is a man of colour. He´s bound to have experienced a lot of racist abuse through his life. That, I would imagine, would also do something to a person. Born and raised in Northampton with (according to internet sources) less than a 5% black population. It is also the city in its county with the highest crime rate, with a crime rate of 130 per 1,000 people.

Is he easier to sign off as a bad apple because the colour of his skin? Would we like him more if he was white (or a bit fairer in his skin tones)? Or if he was funny, easy going and charming?

I´m absolutely NOT implying that anyone here or elsewhere dislike Toney because of the colour of his skin. I´m simply asking - introspectively as much as anything else - if we would accept and/or like him more if he was white? How much shit and abuse have Sandro Tonali of Newcastle got for his ban after betting/gambling?

Personally I´m still against signing Toney. Because of his age (28 - he is a year older than Richarlison); because of his far than prolific goal scoring bar the one season for Brentford; and because I don´t see him as a good fit for our kind of play; Brentford plays an almost 100% different kind of football than we do; and because I´ve never seen him as front presser and industrious worker up front (but have to admit I haven´t seen him that much, so I´d listen to other opinions); and finally because of the gambling thing - one more case, and he´s looking at a ban that would maybe be career ending for him plus the fact that as far I´ve seen, he hasn´t really faced up to his problems (which then again make it all stink of addiction a long way).

I don't want him because I have serious doubts about how good he actually is. The other stuff around him definitely doesn't help either.

 

[rawhide]

Most top atheletes are egoistic and selfish individuals. They have to be, to become elite in their chosen sport. This can often be seen as being "arrogant".

In sports with obscene amounts of money and salaries, like football and American pro sports like NFL, NBA, etc., it is very easy and I´d say quite human to become self-absorbed as well. If I earned tens or hundreds of thousands of pounds per week, I wouldn´t trust myself to not come across as a bit of a twat or a bellend tbh.

A large majority of these players sacrifice a "normal" upbringing to reach the top level. And more than most come from below average and/or poor backgrounds (financially). They don´t go to normal schools from an early/pre teen age, they live their lives and most importantly their formative years as teenagers and young men in a totally different environment than most of us do. Even though clubs have developed massively in these areas over the last 2-3 decades, it is still an environment which is extremely competitive and focused on success. Nice blokes end last - it is that simple. Some are probably much better at disguising their competitive nature in social life, and some just have a charming personality or the gift of the gab that will help them come across as nice people. But they are - and I know this is generalising - very simple people with little experience of anything you and I would call "normal life".

Ivan Toney doesn´t come across as a very nice character to most. He´s arrogant, he does stupid things ("I hate Brentford"), and he´s an addict (that publicly at least) doesn´t want to admit that he is an addict, face his problems, own them and show real remorse. His public personae is jsut not very easy to like for most people.

I used to live in the UK for several years, and I do know that the English and British culture when it comes to what a man should be, differs quite a lot from say what the Scandinavian male role model is. English men shouldn´t cry or be seen as soft in any way. And especially not a tough and hard footballer! Football is not what it was back in the days of Leeds United of the late 60s and early 70s. Or like it was with Wimbledon´s crazy gang. Roy Keane would most certainly have set a new record for red cards in a season and matches missed because of bans if he played today. But football is still a contact sport, and the British players come from a culture where they see themselves as hard men. In the 2020s that doesn´t come across as well as it did only a few years ago. I would imagine that the "hard" male role model would be even more crucial in working class environments where still most of the players come from.

All that said: I found some interesting stuff on Toney that I didn´t know. From Wikipedia:

(..) he asked a chant sung by Peterborough fans about the size of his genitalia to be changed to make it more family-friendly.
+
While at Brentford, the club stopped taking a knee against racism; Toney said that players were being "used as puppets" to make the gesture while society did not change.[60] He also faced online racist abuse over the season.[61] Following Brentford's decision to take the knee for the 2021–22 Premier League season alongside the other 19 clubs, Toney said he would not join his colleagues and would continue to stand.

These two examples at least to me shows that there are more things to Toney than maybe most of us know.

There is one thing I´ve been thinking about lately. I don´t mean to offend anyone, and I would love to get some thoughts about this from others. We´ve heard the stories from Danny Rose and others, and most remember the ugly treatment Saka got after the 2021 Euros. Toney is a man of colour. He´s bound to have experienced a lot of racist abuse through his life. That, I would imagine, would also do something to a person. Born and raised in Northampton with (according to internet sources) less than a 5% black population. It is also the city in its county with the highest crime rate, with a crime rate of 130 per 1,000 people.

Is he easier to sign off as a bad apple because the colour of his skin? Would we like him more if he was white (or a bit fairer in his skin tones)? Or if he was funny, easy going and charming?

I´m absolutely NOT implying that anyone here or elsewhere dislike Toney because of the colour of his skin. I´m simply asking - introspectively as much as anything else - if we would accept and/or like him more if he was white? How much shit and abuse have Sandro Tonali of Newcastle got for his ban after betting/gambling?

Personally I´m still against signing Toney. Because of his age (28 - he is a year older than Richarlison); because of his far than prolific goal scoring bar the one season for Brentford; and because I don´t see him as a good fit for our kind of play; Brentford plays an almost 100% different kind of football than we do; and because I´ve never seen him as front presser and industrious worker up front (but have to admit I haven´t seen him that much, so I´d listen to other opinions); and finally because of the gambling thing - one more case, and he´s looking at a ban that would maybe be career ending for him plus the fact that as far I´ve seen, he hasn´t really faced up to his problems (which then again make it all stink of addiction a long way).

I like this post a lot. I appreciate the effort and will consider this as I weigh up whether I think he’s of good character.

I would point out that a lot of black US athletes do a hell of a lot of community work and use their extreme wealth to help others in situations they grew up in. The kind acts of players like Lebron and Shaq by way of examples are well documented.

 

[daveduvet]

Most top atheletes are egoistic and selfish individuals. They have to be, to become elite in their chosen sport. This can often be seen as being "arrogant".

In sports with obscene amounts of money and salaries, like football and American pro sports like NFL, NBA, etc., it is very easy and I´d say quite human to become self-absorbed as well. If I earned tens or hundreds of thousands of pounds per week, I wouldn´t trust myself to not come across as a bit of a twat or a bellend tbh.

A large majority of these players sacrifice a "normal" upbringing to reach the top level. And more than most come from below average and/or poor backgrounds (financially). They don´t go to normal schools from an early/pre teen age, they live their lives and most importantly their formative years as teenagers and young men in a totally different environment than most of us do. Even though clubs have developed massively in these areas over the last 2-3 decades, it is still an environment which is extremely competitive and focused on success. Nice blokes end last - it is that simple. Some are probably much better at disguising their competitive nature in social life, and some just have a charming personality or the gift of the gab that will help them come across as nice people. But they are - and I know this is generalising - very simple people with little experience of anything you and I would call "normal life".

Ivan Toney doesn´t come across as a very nice character to most. He´s arrogant, he does stupid things ("I hate Brentford"), and he´s an addict (that publicly at least) doesn´t want to admit that he is an addict, face his problems, own them and show real remorse. His public personae is jsut not very easy to like for most people.

I used to live in the UK for several years, and I do know that the English and British culture when it comes to what a man should be, differs quite a lot from say what the Scandinavian male role model is. English men shouldn´t cry or be seen as soft in any way. And especially not a tough and hard footballer! Football is not what it was back in the days of Leeds United of the late 60s and early 70s. Or like it was with Wimbledon´s crazy gang. Roy Keane would most certainly have set a new record for red cards in a season and matches missed because of bans if he played today. But football is still a contact sport, and the British players come from a culture where they see themselves as hard men. In the 2020s that doesn´t come across as well as it did only a few years ago. I would imagine that the "hard" male role model would be even more crucial in working class environments where still most of the players come from.

All that said: I found some interesting stuff on Toney that I didn´t know. From Wikipedia:

(..) he asked a chant sung by Peterborough fans about the size of his genitalia to be changed to make it more family-friendly.
+
While at Brentford, the club stopped taking a knee against racism; Toney said that players were being "used as puppets" to make the gesture while society did not change.[60] He also faced online racist abuse over the season.[61] Following Brentford's decision to take the knee for the 2021–22 Premier League season alongside the other 19 clubs, Toney said he would not join his colleagues and would continue to stand.

These two examples at least to me shows that there are more things to Toney than maybe most of us know.

There is one thing I´ve been thinking about lately. I don´t mean to offend anyone, and I would love to get some thoughts about this from others. We´ve heard the stories from Danny Rose and others, and most remember the ugly treatment Saka got after the 2021 Euros. Toney is a man of colour. He´s bound to have experienced a lot of racist abuse through his life. That, I would imagine, would also do something to a person. Born and raised in Northampton with (according to internet sources) less than a 5% black population. It is also the city in its county with the highest crime rate, with a crime rate of 130 per 1,000 people.

Is he easier to sign off as a bad apple because the colour of his skin? Would we like him more if he was white (or a bit fairer in his skin tones)? Or if he was funny, easy going and charming?

I´m absolutely NOT implying that anyone here or elsewhere dislike Toney because of the colour of his skin. I´m simply asking - introspectively as much as anything else - if we would accept and/or like him more if he was white? How much shit and abuse have Sandro Tonali of Newcastle got for his ban after betting/gambling?

Personally I´m still against signing Toney. Because of his age (28 - he is a year older than Richarlison); because of his far than prolific goal scoring bar the one season for Brentford; and because I don´t see him as a good fit for our kind of play; Brentford plays an almost 100% different kind of football than we do; and because I´ve never seen him as front presser and industrious worker up front (but have to admit I haven´t seen him that much, so I´d listen to other opinions); and finally because of the gambling thing - one more case, and he´s looking at a ban that would maybe be career ending for him plus the fact that as far I´ve seen, he hasn´t really faced up to his problems (which then again make it all stink of addiction a long way).

Great post. You’re spot on to point out the early life sacrifices with a view to becoming a top sports person/athlete etc. .. it’s a form of indoctrination - for better or worse ..

 

[WhiteStripe]

Reading this if Toney signs for Spurs, there’ll be about 51% of members here no longer supporting the club, given the disdain for a bloke they’ve never met or likely ever will

If he scores goals, 99% of that 51% will forget the moral high ground within a week. 74% of them will have a Toney shirt, 42% of them will name their first born Ivan and 26% of them will tattoo his face on their chest.

 

[PaulThurston]

If he scores goals, 99% of that 51% will forget the moral high ground within a week. 74% of them will have a Toney shirt, 42% of them will name their first born Ivan and 26% of them will tattoo his face on their chest.

Shit. Have I gone too early with the tattoo again? I should have learnt that lesson with the Mbappe one I suppose.

 

[XIIIMPC]

I've never liked Toney, and him signing for us and scoring a thousand goals won't change that one iota unless he himself shows signs of changing. It's a dangerous thing when being good at a sport is seen to "make up" for shitty off-field behaviour when the two things are totally unrelated.

 

[Gpnash84]

I've never liked Toney, and him signing for us and scoring a thousand goals won't change that one iota unless he himself shows signs of changing. It's a dangerous thing when being good at a sport is seen to "make up" for shitty off-field behaviour when the two things are totally unrelated.

If you’ve ‘never’ liked him it suggests you disliked him before you knew anything about him. I’d argue you still know sweet fa about him to be honest. Clearly others have indicated concerns around his off field behaviour but none of us truly know what he’s like. Nobody is suggesting that scoring goals is a counterweight for bad behaviour but equally the idea he has to change his life to fit in with your idea of decency (whatever that is) comes across as very arrogant.

 

[dagraham]

If you’ve ‘never’ liked him it suggests you disliked him before you knew anything about him. I’d argue you still know sweet fa about him to be honest. Clearly others have indicated concerns around his off field behaviour but none of us truly know what he’s like. Nobody is suggesting that scoring goals is a counterweight for bad behaviour but equally the idea he has to change his life to fit in with your idea of decency (whatever that is) comes across as very arrogant.

Indeed, but welcome to SC where the moral bastions of society reside and are all keen to show it.

Yes there are some concerns and I will admit that he has come across as a bit of a dick with various things, but at the end of the day he’s a potential CF target for Spurs, not in contention to marry my daughter so people need to calm down and get off their high horse a bit.

 

[WiganSpur]

This has deadline day written all over it for us or someone, Brentford want to sell and have effectively signed his replacement already.

The big question we need to ask ourselves with this one:

Richy gets back to fitness to start the season. £50m Saudi bid comes in on deadline day, and you can bring in Toney for £40-45m, do you do it?

As that’s the scenario I think he would be brought in.

 

[danny32]

The big question we need to ask ourselves with this one:

Richy gets back to fitness to start the season. £50m Saudi bid comes in on deadline day, and you can bring in Toney for £40-45m, do you do it?

As that’s the scenario I think he would be brought in.

We re not spending 45-50m on someone who is one bet away from a lengthy ban.
This is why there has been no real interest in him from anyone.
The question is at what price will someone take a gamble on him.

 

[WiganSpur]

We re not spending 45-50m on someone who is one bet away from a lengthy ban.
This is why there has been no real interest in him from anyone.
The question is at what price will someone take a gamble on him.

You might be right but at what point to Brentford feel they might as well keep him for the year? Think £30-35m is probably the minimum they would take. I would expect that price would attract foreign buyers too.

 

[XIIIMPC]

If you’ve ‘never’ liked him it suggests you disliked him before you knew anything about him. I’d argue you still know sweet fa about him to be honest. Clearly others have indicated concerns around his off field behaviour but none of us truly know what he’s like. Nobody is suggesting that scoring goals is a counterweight for bad behaviour but equally the idea he has to change his life to fit in with your idea of decency (whatever that is) comes across as very arrogant.

Jesus. It's a figure of speech. To clarify with an exact moment of dislike, I haven't liked him since Brentford got promoted and he used the post-match interview as an opportunity to mock his haters, and his reaction to his betting charges has not humbled him one iota - in fact it seems only to have enlarged the chip on his shoulder. He doesn't have to do a damn thing to fit in with my idea of anything. None of our opinions here are of any actual real consequence. I'm just saying the idea that him scoring goals will cause me to like him is insulting, and the idea that they are linked has always pissed me off. I hate the patronising notion that all football fans are fickle and just scoring goals or winning will erase off-field behaviour. Someone was suggesting exactly that, two posts up from my last one.

Indeed, but welcome to SC where the moral bastions of society reside and are all keen to show it.

Yes there are some concerns and I will admit that he has come across as a bit of a dick with various things, but at the end of the day he’s a potential CF target for Spurs, not in contention to marry my daughter so people need to calm down and get off their high horse a bit.

And yet nobody is on a higher horse here than Gpnash, who you quoted; "you know sweet fa about him" "none of us truly know what he's like" are all talking down to people who dare to dislike footballers. Newsflash: you're allowed to feel that way about public figures based on what they have presented in public. I watched Max Verstappen act like a petulant child today during the F1 and now like him less than I already did. That is an entirely reasonable reaction, one I'm sure was shared by many today. Do I know him personally? No. Would I feel comfortable in saying I "don't like" him? Yes. Am I demanding he "change his life to fit [my] idea of decency"? No. Because "I don't like him" is a globally accepted shorthand for "yes, I have never met him, but I dislike the aspects of his personality that he has presented to the public". Nobody would bat an eyelid if I said "I've never really liked Max Verstappen". And yet here I have somebody (very much on a high horse) saying it's bad to dislike public figures, and that I'm demanding they change, when neither is true.

 

[Bluto Blutarsky]

Finally some good news on this front: "No obvious suitors"

 

[UncleBuck]

Finally some good news on this front: "No obvious suitors"

 

[Guntz]

Deadline day written all over.

A Levy special, if you will.