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Ivan Toney

kthwlsn

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2019
1,004
2,843
Watched him for a season at Peterborough and he worked hard on the pitch.
A genuine twenty goal a season striker who can bully defenders and link play.

Most big strikers with a bit about them are arrogant f@@kers as not only are they the biggest kid in the playground but also the best.

I don't particularly like players agitating for a move but he wants to progress and knows he could play in a top six side.
If he's available for £50 million or less he's worth the risk, especially as he won't feel he's too big for us (at least for a couple of seasons).

Him and Richy as our striking options would be excellent.
It's not about him being an arrogant fucker. It's about him being a dumbass. Or, best case scenario, not a dumbass but truly an addict. Missing time due to injuries is usually unavoidable. Missing time for a gambling ban is. And, much like injury prone players, there's every reason to think it could easily happen again.
 

DannyNZ

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2017
1,893
5,227
It's not about him being an arrogant fucker. It's about him being a dumbass. Or, best case scenario, not a dumbass but truly an addict. Missing time due to injuries is usually unavoidable. Missing time for a gambling ban is. And, much like injury prone players, there's every reason to think it could easily happen again.
Bet Newcastle are regretting paying big money for a gambling addict. For me Toney would be a gamble on him having shed his past gambling habits, a gamble on his ability to adapt to a pressing game, a gamble on his character, a gamble on his attitude if Richy stays and earns the starter spot. Every transfer is a gamble, this one has more risk than I’d be happy to take when there are alternatives without so much baggage.
 

Ron Burgundy

SC Supporter
Jun 19, 2008
7,846
23,821
Honestly, I think the only reason people are grabbing onto this is because they think he's gettable, and they're going all in on wanting him.

Let's leave aside whether we think he's a gambling addict and/or a twat. Let's just focus on the stuff that we can genuinely observe:

1) He's a good player, but not a great player

- his goal scoring is a little patchy
- his form towards the end of the season was poor
- this notion that he bullies defenders is over done, and is an attribute that we can replicate with dozens of other players
- he doesn't really press, which means he isn't that suited to our game plan
- technically he's OK, but I'd rather someone a bit more comfortable with the ball at his feet
Conclusion: purely on a playing basis, at present, I wouldn't be against it, but he doesn't scream 'must have'

2) He's likely to cost c. £45m+

- if we're spending that sort of money, it needs to be someone we're taking limited risks on...
- ...and who we could get a return on i.e. either a good 5 years of contribution to the first team and/or sell on value

3) His likely development from here

- he's 28
- that means he's likely at his peak, plus or minus a bit
- but he's not going to materially improve
- and we'll either need to sell him for materially less, or basically get nothing

Just take the above points. We can maybe disagree on (1) a bit - people might rate him a bit more or less, but anyone that rates as massively better than the above has got it wrong.

So: Given (2), is (1) sufficiently positive enough given (3).

Definitely not in my opinion. The whole thing doesn't stack up. Personally I wouldn't go anywhere near him.

For anyone with the profile in (3), either (2) needs to really make sense, or they need to blow the lights out in category (1).

I'm really surprised people feel differently on this.
 

Coolpudge

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2006
1,149
863
I see a lot of people say they don’t want him because he doesn’t press with Brentford but does anyone think that the reason for this is because that’s the way Brentford want to play and he could do it if asked? Or is that the way they play because he can’t press and that’s the best way to play with the players they have?
 

Dunc2610

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2008
1,690
4,174
I see a lot of people say they don’t want him because he doesn’t press with Brentford but does anyone think that the reason for this is because that’s the way Brentford want to play and he could do it if asked? Or is that the way they play because he can’t press and that’s the best way to play with the players they have?
I don't want him cause I think he's a massive c*nt! Nothing to do with pressing!
 

Trix

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2004
20,144
337,058
That’s understandable. I just wanted to ask if people just don’t want him because of who he is or if it’s also the way he plays
Who he is
Wrong fit for how we play
Age
Price
Potential future bans
Form since his return

Take your pick. More red flags than a Communist party rally in downtown Beijing.
 
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Now it's Spursonal

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2012
1,804
14,869
I was completely after convincing myself that Vitor Roque is the perfect signing for an Ange striker.

However I’m now after realising that Vitor Roque was the perfect signing for an Ange strike, with the emphasis on past tense.

Having watched the Europa league final and listened to all the discourse and analysis on it, I’ve now realised that Vitor Roque likely won’t do for what Ange needs next season.

Atalanta played an aggressive man-marking system with big physical players and it completely shut down Leverkusen’s patterns of play and made them look poor. Atalanta also did the exact same to Liverpool.

This intense man-marking system was very similar to how Newcastle set up against us when beating us 4-0 or Wolves when they beat us 2-1 or even Brighton when we beat them 2-1 but they made us look bad.

This man-marking system is likely something we’re going to face very often next season as many pragmatic coaches will adopt it and many teams like to follow successful European trends.

I believe Ange is very aware of this and thus his desired style of striker will have changed to reflect that.

The general and well accepted consensus is that the way to beat a man-marking system is through having a brilliant target man. A player that you can confidently play to over(or through) the man marking press and have the ball stick to them.

This gets the ball up the field easily and gets all the attacking players running forwards towards goal with their man-markers out of positions.

Vitor Roque would’ve been a perfect striker for Ange at his previous clubs and so it makes perfect sense that we tried so hard to sign him in the summer.

But the level of competition here isn’t like Ange’s previous clubs, and thus the requirements of the striker are much higher than what he’s needed before.

I look at Paul O Keefe’s list of strikers, Toney, Guirassy, Gyokeres, Guirassy, Openda, Solanke and Giminez and I see all players that can win their physical battle against their CB and hold the ball up. A player we’ve had tentative links to aswell that I previously didn’t think would suit us is Zirkzee, but now I think he could actually be a brilliant option.

Personally I’d rule out Toney due all the things Trix listed above, but I’ve definitely swayed more to that style of player.
 

felmani26

SC Supporter
Jan 1, 2008
24,900
44,831
I was completely after convincing myself that Vitor Roque is the perfect signing for an Ange striker.

However I’m now after realising that Vitor Roque was the perfect signing for an Ange strike, with the emphasis on past tense.

Having watched the Europa league final and listened to all the discourse and analysis on it, I’ve now realised that Vitor Roque likely won’t do for what Ange needs next season.

Atalanta played an aggressive man-marking system with big physical players and it completely shut down Leverkusen’s patterns of play and made them look poor. Atalanta also did the exact same to Liverpool.

This intense man-marking system was very similar to how Newcastle set up against us when beating us 4-0 or Wolves when they beat us 2-1 or even Brighton when we beat them 2-1 but they made us look bad.

This man-marking system is likely something we’re going to face very often next season as many pragmatic coaches will adopt it and many teams like to follow successful European trends.

I believe Ange is very aware of this and thus his desired style of striker will have changed to reflect that.

The general and well accepted consensus is that the way to beat a man-marking system is through having a brilliant target man. A player that you can confidently play to over(or through) the man marking press and have the ball stick to them.

This gets the ball up the field easily and gets all the attacking players running forwards towards goal with their man-markers out of positions.

Vitor Roque would’ve been a perfect striker for Ange at his previous clubs and so it makes perfect sense that we tried so hard to sign him in the summer.

But the level of competition here isn’t like Ange’s previous clubs, and thus the requirements of the striker are much higher than what he’s needed before.

I look at Paul O Keefe’s list of strikers, Toney, Guirassy, Gyokeres, Guirassy, Openda, Solanke and Giminez and I see all players that can win their physical battle against their CB and hold the ball up. A player we’ve had tentative links to aswell that I previously didn’t think would suit us is Zirkzee, but now I think he could actually be a brilliant option.

Personally I’d rule out Toney due all the things Trix listed above, but I’ve definitely swayed more to that style of player.
Zirkzee would indeed be a superb addition but can see him following Motta to Juventus.
 

Cinemattis

Fully Functional Member
Aug 5, 2013
1,000
3,841
After talks last summer with him and his family, club went cold, though it was only to explore interest. The vibes I heard then, and did not change in January was a negative one.
57 messages over almost three pages since this one - a very, very clear message from one of our beloved and trusted ITKs.

But yet we keep on discussing if he´s an excellent player or utter shit, if he can play Postecoglou´s kind of football or not, a world class knob head or just a smashing guy that´s misunderstood. Some think A, others think B - everyone keep on saying the same things that were already said on page 1, and no-one change their mind about the gambling addicted, over rated, one season wonder, piece of cnut. Or misunderstood footballing genius and philanthropist. Whatever - he isn´t coming ´cause we don´t want him. End of. Shut the thread.
 

southlondonyiddo

My eyes have seen some of the glory..
Nov 8, 2004
12,724
15,397
57 messages over almost three pages since this one - a very, very clear message from one of our beloved and trusted ITKs.

But yet we keep on discussing if he´s an excellent player or utter shit, if he can play Postecoglou´s kind of football or not, a world class knob head or just a smashing guy that´s misunderstood. Some think A, others think B - everyone keep on saying the same things that were already said on page 1, and no-one change their mind about the gambling addicted, over rated, one season wonder, piece of cnut. Or misunderstood footballing genius and philanthropist. Whatever - he isn´t coming ´cause we don´t want him. End of. Shut the thread.
So are you yay or nay?
 

jolsnogross

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2005
3,876
5,801
I just mentioned in the Hudson-Odoi thread that the #9 position is our key thing to solve this summer. If we are rotating Son and Richarlison next season in there, or experimenting with flase 9's, we won't be going anywhere fast.

We need a presence up there. I can't comment on his attitude, but Toney has impressed me when I've watched him for Brentford occasionally. His league scoring record for them is 12, 20, and 4 - quite variable. His ban screwed last season. That variability in scoring stats should be reflected in the price and the scale of a deal for him. I reckon he's an upgrade on Richarlison in terms of skill, ball retention and scoring. He's definitely an upgrade on Son for the position.
 
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