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Is there a way back this time?

SUIYHA

Well-Known Member
Jan 15, 2017
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December 2003 - A run of defeats ending with a loss at home to Charlton meant we ended the calendar year in the bottom three. An absolute shambles of a squad left by Hoddle being managed by David Pleat featuring a complete lack of pace, players like Anderton, Poyet, Redknapp and Ziege all way past their prime and players like Doherty and Postiga were clearly nowhere near good enough. We only just avoided relegation this season and finished with literally half the number of points Arsenal did. But we did have Ledley King and Robbie Keane to build a team around. We added Jermain Defoe and Paul Robinson. We overhauled our management structure in 2004 with Arnesen and Jol and brought a fresh approach to the team. We then signed Michael Carrick, Michael Dawson, Aaron Lennon and finally Edgar Davids, and suddenly we had a hungry young side, full of talented players with a couple of experienced heads to lead the way. Within two years of that disaster of a season we were competing for a Champions League place and would have even finished above that Arsenal side who doubled our points tally had we not eaten that dodgy lasagne.

October 2008 - Two points from eight games. We'd lost at home to Hull and Sunderland, and away to Middlesbrough and Stoke. We'd sold Berbatov, Keane and Defoe to replace them with Bent, Pavyluchenko and Frazier Campbell and had scored just five goals in those opening eight games. Out of our other new summer signings, David Bentley appeared to be an expensive showpony, Luka Modric looked too lightweight for English football and Heurelho Gomes was the laughing stock of the league. King couldn't stay fit. Dawson and Lennon on a major decline and not living up to their potential, nor was Bale who looked completely lost at left-back. Zokora, O'Hara, Hutton, Gunter - clearly nowhere near good enough. We'd been top five regulars for the last few seasons but now people thought we'd fucked it, and with Manchester City now becoming the next oil rich club our chances of getting back to where we were looked bleak. Then Redknapp came in and immediately our fortunes turned around - once he figured out how to get the best out of Modric, Lennon and Dawson and how to manage King's fitness, he brought back Keane and Defoe before adding a bit of steel to the midfield with Palacios and a bit of flair with Kranjcar. Finally, Bale then stepped up to the plate, and within two years - we were playing Champions League football for the first time.

March 2014 - After coming 4th, 5th, 4th in the previous three seasons, we'd fallen apart. Modric was gone. King was gone. Van Der Vaart was gone. Now even Bale was gone. And we'd spent the money on Paulinho, Capoue, Chiriches, Soldado and Chadli. Lamela couldn't even get onto subs bench, nobody knew where he was or what had happened to our record signing. We lost twice to Arsenal, 4-0 to Chelsea, 5-1 to Man City, 4-0 to Liverpool and 3-1 at home to Benfica in a short space of time - it felt like every single big game we got completely outclassed. Arsenal and Liverpool were rejuvenated and playing great football near the top of the league and we had Tim fucking Sherwood. Vertonghen and Lloris looked like they didn't want to be there. Rose and Walker looked like rabbits in the headlights. Lennon, Dawson, Kaboul and Sandro's careers were all nosediving. It didn't look good - even Everton were doing better than us and it felt like we needed an entirely new side. Then this awkward looking striker from our youth team started scoring goals and this young "out of his depth" manager at Southampton was brought in. He initiated a high pressing game, gave young players like Kane, Bentaleb and Mason a chance whilst developing Rose, Walker and Eriksen into some of the best players in the league. We then made a couple of subtle additions in Alli, Alderweireld, Son and Wanyama, and once again, within two years, we were better than ever before - challenging for the title for the first time in decades.


Levy has overseen three turnarounds from what looked like a position of no hope. Maybe he got lucky, that's a discussion for another day, but can it be done a fourth time? Are the raw materials there that, with the right manager, coaching and acquisitions, we could turn ourselves back into title challengers again within two years? What would need to happen and who do we need to build our team around? Even Mourinho himself said upon his appointment that he felt we could win the league next season. Bearing in mind the current football landscape and available budgets, is there a way back for us now?
 
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dontcallme

SC Supporter
Mar 18, 2005
33,988
81,937
I think unless we get the acquisitions to be in line with a playing style the manager will play then we won't see any real improvement outside of a star emerging.

Lo Celso, Ndombele, Winks and Lamela seem to thrive in a team playing pass and move and playing with a bit of intensity. But that doesn't appear to be how Jose will get us playing.

If Jose wants us to go with his 433 then we need to sell several players and get the purchases right. At the moment I have little hope.
 

JCRD

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2018
19,153
30,013
I think unless we get the acquisitions to be in line with a playing style the manager will play then we won't see any real improvement outside of a star emerging.

Lo Celso, Ndombele, Winks and Lamela seem to thrive in a team playing pass and move and playing with a bit of intensity. But that doesn't appear to be how Jose will get us playing.

If Jose wants us to go with his 433 then we need to sell several players and get the purchases right. At the moment I have little hope.

We are at a crossroad as it is clear as day we need a rebuild. Willw e have that rebuild? Will Levy want to orchestrate that rebuild?

The question is do we have Jose overseeing that rebuild or do we get someone else in to oversee that, someone who has a vision and is innovative and up with the times?
 

Gassin's finest

C'est diabolique
May 12, 2010
37,355
87,831
We'll get back up there. But like with those previous cycles, it won't be the first manager that does it, it'll be the next one.

Either way, we're probably looking at a least a couple of seasons before we're having fun again.
 

Locotoro

Prince of Zamunda
Sep 2, 2004
9,328
13,926
Everyone talking about "we need a rebuild"...This is nothing new! We ARE having a rebuild. Poch said it, JM said it.

That's what we're doing now. As much as I hated watching that turgid stuff JM has started with the problem areas. Defence!

No one can argue our defence has not looked more solid. Hopefully, as things progress so will other parts of our game
 

cjbyid

Well-Known Member
Jan 4, 2009
7,167
25,018
Can't see it. ENIC won't be spending big money especially with all the shit going on now.

Jose will eventually get sacked or leave and levy will hire someone who again will not be backed by the board.

Rinse/repeat.
 

muppetman

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2011
8,901
24,817
Everyone talking about "we need a rebuild"...This is nothing new! We ARE having a rebuild. Poch said it, JM said it.

That's what we're doing now. As much as I hated watching that turgid stuff JM has started with the problem areas. Defence!

No one can argue our defence has not looked more solid. Hopefully, as things progress so will other parts of our game
He's fixed the defence by playing Toby, Jan, Davies and Aurier? I think my idea of a rebuild and yours might be slightly different. :LOL:
 

SUIYHA

Well-Known Member
Jan 15, 2017
1,723
8,579
Everyone talking about "we need a rebuild"...This is nothing new! We ARE having a rebuild. Poch said it, JM said it.

That's what we're doing now. As much as I hated watching that turgid stuff JM has started with the problem areas. Defence!

No one can argue our defence has not looked more solid. Hopefully, as things progress so will other parts of our game

We did need to improve our defence for sure, but you cannot win a game 0-0. On top of that, I also don't see anyone in that defence now that we could build it around for the next few seasons like we did with King in 2003, Dawson in 2008 or Vertonghen in 2014.
 
D

Deleted member 27995

No.

Fans don't want Mourinho but they also dislike those who run the club - couple that with the playing squad being shite we're now the Newcastle of the South.
 

muppetman

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2011
8,901
24,817
No.

Fans don't want Mourinho but they also dislike those who run the club - couple that with the playing squad being shite we're now the Newcastle of the South.
I don't think it's quite that doom and gloom - we just need to get back to what we were doing that brought us joy and happiness. Invest in exciting young prospects (at a higher level than before due to stadium income), improve them with good coaching and create a team that is more than the sum of it's parts.

I don't expect to be on par with the super clubs, I just want to be able to compete and look better than the likes of Bournemouth.
 

waresy

Well-Known Member
Mar 22, 2004
2,421
1,569
We did need to improve our defence for sure, but you cannot win a game 0-0. On top of that, I also don't see anyone in that defence now that we could build it around for the next few seasons like we did with King in 2003, Dawson in 2008 or Vertonghen in 2014.
Recent musings would suggest that Jose thinks that Dier is the one to start this with, Toby and Sanchez still about and Tanganga with potential
 

yido_number1

He'll always be magic
Jun 8, 2004
8,646
16,809
Hard to know if it's Mourinho or the squad that is the issue. Either way he's joined at the worst possible time regarding transfer funds. I was hopeful we'd be better after the break but we look shocking.
 
D

Deleted member 27995

I don't think it's quite that doom and gloom - we just need to get back to what we were doing that brought us joy and happiness. Invest in exciting young prospects (at a higher level than before due to stadium income), improve them with good coaching and create a team that is more than the sum of it's parts.

I don't expect to be on par with the super clubs, I just want to be able to compete and look better than the likes of Bournemouth.
I want us to be winning things, otherwise whats the point?
 

robin09

Well-Known Member
Jun 4, 2005
6,800
7,697
What some don't appreciate, is Levy is putting in the pieces to make sure that we're able to keep bouncing back.

You can't avoid buying bad players, signing the wrong manager and having dips in form.

But if you have a state of the art training ground and academy, and a world beating stadium that draws revenue from other activities, we should always have the resources to rebuild when on field performance dips.

Winning trophies is obviously the ultimate goal for everyone. You can't ever guarantee that, but I fully expect us to come back from the last 12 months stronger. The question is whether it's with or without Jose, and how quickly.
 

muppetman

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2011
8,901
24,817
I want us to be winning things, otherwise whats the point?
So do I and I think that various other clubs have shown it is possible - BVB being the classic example but also Leicester and up to a point Liverpool. (Whisper it, but even us getting to a CL Final shows it is possible!)

We aren't going to be able to go toe to toe with the super clubs any time soon - football isn't a level playing field. We therefore need to try to be cleverer than the rest - which is at least partly what I think Liverpool have done. Sensible purchases combined with an excellent coach to be more than the sum of their parts.

We do have some excellent players - Hugo, Kane, Dele, Son, decent defensive options and the possibility of a good midfield with Ndombele and Lo Celso. That's why I'm so upset about how shit we are at the moment, I think it can be tweaked to be better than it currently is.

Half the forum thinks we need a new 25 man squad, new manager, new backroom staff, new coaching setup, new board, new owners. That's not happening so we need to hope for something that is actually possible.
 

mpickard2087

Patient Zero
Jun 13, 2008
21,886
32,513
To be honest I've always subscribed to the thought that you're never as a good as you think you are in the good times, but never as bad as it seems when things take a dip.

Football, and team performance/standards, are a fragile thing. A good season is just that, afterwards it's a clean slate and anything can happen - good or bad. Football fans though just expect a linear progress and for team performance to be bottled and forever available on tap. That just doesn't happen.

But then things aren't terminal when you do have an off season. Confidence, belief, and momentum are powerful things in sport and it doesn't take long to hit an upward curve. Put a few wins and performances together and that can carry everything - as we see each year with certain teams.

It's never continual progress, but likewise it is never terminal decline. Things will change again quickly.
 
D

Deleted member 27995

So do I and I think that various other clubs have shown it is possible - BVB being the classic example but also Leicester and up to a point Liverpool. (Whisper it, but even us getting to a CL Final shows it is possible!)

We aren't going to be able to go toe to toe with the super clubs any time soon - football isn't a level playing field. We therefore need to try to be cleverer than the rest - which is at least partly what I think Liverpool have done. Sensible purchases combined with an excellent coach to be more than the sum of their parts.

We do have some excellent players - Hugo, Kane, Dele, Son, decent defensive options and the possibility of a good midfield with Ndombele and Lo Celso. That's why I'm so upset about how shit we are at the moment, I think it can be tweaked to be better than it currently is.

Half the forum thinks we need a new 25 man squad, new manager, new backroom staff, new coaching setup, new board, new owners. That's not happening so we need to hope for something that is actually possible.
Fingers crossed for you then.

I'm of the opinion we're done.
 

SUIYHA

Well-Known Member
Jan 15, 2017
1,723
8,579
Recent musings would suggest that Jose thinks that Dier is the one to start this with, Toby and Sanchez still about and Tanganga with potential

I forgot about Tanganga to be fair. Shame he got injured as he'd been really impressive when he first came into the side, although worryingly was stuck out at LB. So hard to tell with promising young CBs if they'll make it - for every Ledley King there's an Anthony Gardner that looks absolutely useless by the time they reach their mid-20s.
 

Typical Spurs

Well-Known Member
Feb 10, 2016
990
4,620
I really wanted Jose. So far I'm not convinced. That said I think its irrelevant who manages us. We're just so far off a title challenge or even a top 4 challenge. The squad is very average.

I wish to god Levy had invested when we needed it. When we were so close. Not last summer with GLC and Tanguy. I'm talking when Leicester won the league, that summer we should've really invested and gone for it.

How many of our current 1st 11 get in the other top 6 teams 1st 11? Kane. Son (when hes firing, I think hes been awful since the restart). Maybe GLC. That's it. Our players who were superb for a season or so under Poch have either left or massively deteriorated. All of the below would've got in most of the top 6 BEFORE they all strengthened. They've now either left or deteriorated.

Jan
Toby
Walker
Rose

Dembele
Eriksen
Dele

The lack of investment in the team has destroyed us from back to front. So many of our team are bang average mid table players. We are where we are because that's about right for how good/bad we are.

I've championed Mourinho. I've said it's about winning blah blah blah. The fact is we're winning nothing with the squad we have. Therefore if we're going to be a 6th-10th team (which I honestly think we are), then let's have a bloody go at teams and at least provide some entertainment.

I don't mind playing a tight counter attack style if it gets us where we need to be. We're never getting to where we want with this squad though.

Given we are average, I'd rather watch 3 games with us winning 1 and losing 2 but taking the game to the opponent, rather than drawing 3 and not even having a shot on target
 
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