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is it time to go 4-4-2?

Blake Griffin

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2011
14,133
38,225
first of all let me state this isn't an overreaction to yesterday as we gave it a decent go(in spells) considering the amount of important players we were missing.

but, think it is clear at the moment that defoe won't be getting dropped anytime soon and based purely on his own performances(forgetting the affect him playing has on the rest of the side) he doesn't deserve to be. siggy and demps are struggling to get into games and we have our best striker sitting on the bench, so why not just go -

keeper​
walker caulker vertonghen ekotto​
lennon sandro dembele bale​
defoe adebayor​
yes it's no longer fashionable but the players know how to play it and it gets the best out of everyone, siggy/demps are getting lost in games and the current 4231 isn't helping that one bit. defoe has always played best with a genuine strike partner and ade has to be playing so why not just go back to basics until we have the players to play avb's preferred system accordingly? ofcourse there will be games where we'll need to thicken it up in midfield but for most games i think the above team gets the best out of the players. we're not a particularly great possession team anymore so lets stop pretending otherwise and build the side around the speed and power we know we do have.​
 

CJMurray

****
Aug 3, 2011
3,565
10,563
I think it could work well, but only with Sandro and Dembele in the middle.

I'm withholding judgement on Sigurdsson and Dempsey until they play with Ade as well.
 

DIEHARD

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2004
4,659
5,443
I love 442 I really do however AVB has a specific formation and that is 4231 (or something very closely tied to this)

442 at home is needed as we do find it difficult to break teams down and with 4231 like you say Dempsey and Sig are lost (not to mention that they arent of the quality we need).

4231 is great away from home so im happy to stick with it.

We effectively need to play two formations
 

mrlilywhite

Well-Known Member
Sep 1, 2008
3,174
4,992
The problem does not lie in the formation per se, More so the personnel we are using in this formation, If avb persists on using Defoe as opposed to ade then we should utilise a formation that suits both and in that case a two striker formation is the only way to go, A big man, Little man combo upfront should be the only way fwd. That is all well and good but we are short on options upfront as it is and really let`s be honest one of our downfalls last term was using the 4-4-2 and that was with Modric, who was able to create and dictate for us. Who do we have in the side that could do a better job than Modric was able to do?

You may see a 4-4-2 as giving us a solid and well balanced midfield but that is all it will give us, When it comes to creating chances then we will be very limited and have to rely on wing play and even then we have to supply the ball to them to get them in the positions to be effective. If on the other hand we stick to the 4-2-3-1 and use Ade there instead of defoe then I am sure our options quantify somewhat, We would have options in the attacking phase of going through the middle or using our wingers in more advanced positions than a 4-4-2, We have to learn to play our players in their strongest positions and not try to shoehorn them into a formation that suits some but not others.

Our midfield 1st team players consist of Dembele, Sandro, Hudd, Livermore, Parker, Stig and at a big push Jenas, Now how many of those have a creative nature to their game? Only two stick out in my mind and they are Hudd and Stig, The rest have a lot of industry about them and Dembele and Sandro being the best of that bunch but none of them would give us the ability to break teams down in a 4-4-2 imo. The 4-4-2 is not as flexible a formation as it used to be, Due in a big part to more complex and unorthodox formations that have been introduced to the British shores over a few years. A good example of a recent game using the 4-4-2 against a 4-2-3-1 was the game we played against Arsenal, We lined up with Parker and Modric in midfield and we got beat quite comprehensively, Of course there were other things that happened in that game that led to that hiding but we were too weak in midfield and ultimately Parker lost it and got sent off, For me the deciding factor in that game was about formation and personnel.

Simply put, Using a 4-2-3-1 will serve us better in the long run and I am quite sure that when ade get`s a run in the 1st team then he and Stig/Dempsey will form a formidable partnership, Couple that with dembele and Sandro bossing things in midfield and also having the pace of Bale and Lennon will ultimately give us far more attacking options than the 4-4-2 ever could.
 

mil1lion

This is the place to be
May 7, 2004
42,335
77,592
Ade has to earn his spot yet.

We should stick to the formation that has done so well so far. Our only real problem comes when one of the wingers is missing because we look lopsided. We really should have signed a winger in the summer, and I don't mean waste time trying to sign overpriced players like Willian.

I've got a good feeling about Sigurdsson in that VDV role. He showed some signs of class in the 2nd half yesterday and I think it's just a matter of getting a run of games forhim really.

As far as who leads the line goes I think there's plenty of games to rotate between Defoe and Adebayor. Both players offer completely different strengths and weaknesses but both can hand that lone role provided they get good support from the attacking midfielders.

Our strongest team imo is;

Lloris​
Walker----Kaboul----Vertonghen----Ekotto​
Sandro----Dembele​
Lennon--------Sigurdsson--------Bale​
Adebayor​
Defoe should keep his spot because he is the form striker but can he keep it up? He has never kept this form up throughout a season.In fact to an extent the same could be said of Ade. Hopefully they keep each other on their toes this season. A 3rd striker in Jan would be great too.
 

Blake Griffin

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2011
14,133
38,225
The problem does not lie in the formation per se, More so the personnel we are using in this formation, If avb persists on using Defoe as opposed to ade then we should utilise a formation that suits both and in that case a two striker formation is the only way to go, A big man, Little man combo upfront should be the only way fwd. That is all well and good but we are short on options upfront as it is and really let`s be honest one of our downfalls last term was using the 4-4-2 and that was with Modric, who was able to create and dictate for us. Who do we have in the side that could do a better job than Modric was able to do?

You may see a 4-4-2 as giving us a solid and well balanced midfield but that is all it will give us, When it comes to creating chances then we will be very limited and have to rely on wing play and even then we have to supply the ball to them to get them in the positions to be effective. If on the other hand we stick to the 4-2-3-1 and use Ade there instead of defoe then I am sure our options quantify somewhat, We would have options in the attacking phase of going through the middle or using our wingers in more advanced positions than a 4-4-2, We have to learn to play our players in their strongest positions and not try to shoehorn them into a formation that suits some but not others.

Our midfield 1st team players consist of Dembele, Sandro, Hudd, Livermore, Parker, Stig and at a big push Jenas, Now how many of those have a creative nature to their game? Only two stick out in my mind and they are Hudd and Stig, The rest have a lot of industry about them and Dembele and Sandro being the best of that bunch but none of them would give us the ability to break teams down in a 4-4-2 imo. The 4-4-2 is not as flexible a formation as it used to be, Due in a big part to more complex and unorthodox formations that have been introduced to the British shores over a few years. A good example of a recent game using the 4-4-2 against a 4-2-3-1 was the game we played against Arsenal, We lined up with Parker and Modric in midfield and we got beat quite comprehensively, Of course there were other things that happened in that game that led to that hiding but we were too weak in midfield and ultimately Parker lost it and got sent off, For me the deciding factor in that game was about formation and personnel.

Simply put, Using a 4-2-3-1 will serve us better in the long run and I am quite sure that when ade get`s a run in the 1st team then he and Stig/Dempsey will form a formidable partnership, Couple that with dembele and Sandro bossing things in midfield and also having the pace of Bale and Lennon will ultimately give us far more attacking options than the 4-4-2 ever could.

except we went in at half time drawing 2-2 using 442 and came out in the 2nd half with a 433 and lost 5-2. you make a lot of good points but all of them are based around ade playing as the lone striker, which he's not and i don't see that changing anytime soon.
 

Blackcanary

Dame sans merci
Jul 15, 2012
5,621
12,168
Ade has to earn his spot yet.

We should stick to the formation that has done so well so far. Our only real problem comes when one of the wingers is missing because we look lopsided. We really should have signed a winger in the summer, and I don't mean waste time trying to sign overpriced players like Willian.

I've got a good feeling about Sigurdsson in that VDV role. He showed some signs of class in the 2nd half yesterday and I think it's just a matter of getting a run of games forhim really.

As far as who leads the line goes I think there's plenty of games to rotate between Defoe and Adebayor. Both players offer completely different strengths and weaknesses but both can hand that lone role provided they get good support from the attacking midfielders.

Our strongest team imo is;

Lloris​
Walker----Kaboul----Vertonghen----Ekotto​
Sandro----Dembele​
Lennon--------Sigurdsson--------Bale​
Adebayor​
Defoe should keep his spot because he is the form striker but can he keep it up? He has never kept this form up throughout a season.In fact to an extent the same could be said of Ade. Hopefully they keep each other on their toes this season. A 3rd striker in Jan would be great too.

I can't figure out why Townsend didn't get some game time yesterday. As you say, everything was lopsided - action coming down the right, bugger all down the left. I know Dempsey played down the left at Fulham but he had a horrible game there yesterday.

I'm fascinated to see what happens with Defoe this season - i've got that creeping feeling that he could, maybe, turn a corner and really excel this year. Confidence up, clearly being coached to try and expand his game. I'd Kevin Keegan-love it if he can really be a success this season.
 

YiddoJames

Active Member
Aug 9, 2005
682
137
Based on how we improved by changing to 4-4-2 or something closer to 4-4-2 against QPR and yesterday, yes we should change for HOME games
 

YiddoJames

Active Member
Aug 9, 2005
682
137
I can't figure out why Townsend didn't get some game time yesterday. As you say, everything was lopsided - action coming down the right, bugger all down the left. I know Dempsey played down the left at Fulham but he had a horrible game there yesterday.
.

spot on
 

Mr Pink

SC Supporter
Aug 25, 2010
54,770
99,331
I would be interested to see Ade playing in behind defoe in the present set up - just to see how it goes.
 

King of Otters

Well-Known Member
Jun 11, 2012
10,751
36,093
Definitely. Ade & Defoe up front with the midfield picking itself. Sig & Dempsey as options from the bench.
 

nferno

Waiting for England to finally win the Euros-2024?
Jan 7, 2007
7,014
10,012
442 against those waste of space teams always wanting to park the bus against us. Yeah that's you Stoke Norwich West Bromwich etc etc.

Wigan and Swansea excluded.
 

Blackcanary

Dame sans merci
Jul 15, 2012
5,621
12,168
I would be interested to see Ade playing in behind defoe in the present set up - just to see how it goes.

Yep, that would definitely be worth a try - would improve our link-up play. Just a question of whether Ade would be prepared to drop back and rotate with Sandro and Dembele for the whole match.
 

Paolo10

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2004
6,179
7,621
The majority gurned their eyes out about Harry's 'outdated' 4-4-2, even when we were playing well and Ade and JD were looking like starting a very promising partnership. Most wanted VDV shoehorned in somewhere and JD suffered without having done too much wrong to be honest.

I do think 4-4-2 has a place against some teams and would use it when Ade has a few more games under his belt, but don't think it will ever get the forum consensus as there are far too many overly-vocal tactical geniuses (in their own minds) on here.

I'm not even sure at this point that AVB's methods will see as much out of Ade (with a permanent deal now) as Harry got, he looked like he couldn't give a monkey's fuck about what happened on the pitch yesterday.

This feels like a little bit of an overreaction to losing at home against, well a team that should be title challengers every season if you're being honest.

A budget like that and a Chairman and owner willing to use it is sadly a massive asset in today's game.

I do think far too much emphasis is put on the 'philosophy' with regards to our tactics though.
 

Yid121

Well-Known Member
Aug 9, 2008
3,463
3,139
I would be interested to see Ade playing in behind defoe in the present set up - just to see how it goes.
Same, it worked a treat on FIFA 12... I don't think Adebayor has the positional discipline to stay in midfield behind Defoe though unfortunately.
 

Mr Pink

SC Supporter
Aug 25, 2010
54,770
99,331
Same, it worked a treat on FIFA 12... I don't think Adebayor has the positional discipline to stay in midfield behind Defoe though unfortunately.

Probably, but depends if AVB could make it work, or would see the merit in it to start off with.
 
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