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Ian Ladyman: What if Rudiger was wrong?

MichaelPawson

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2013
834
2,149
An article written about allegations of racism authored by a journalist named Ladyman. It's like this article was especially designed to give my older family members heart attacks.
 

wrd

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2014
13,603
58,005
I think a lot of peoples hearts were in the right place but I said at the time our society has an issue with due process. We need to be better at waiting for evidence and not rushing to a conclusion and also a lot need to rush to show how virtuous they are. I dont think Rudiger should be condemned but I hope he as an individual learns from the experience and doesn't jump to conclusions in the future and gives fans the benefit of the doubt until hes absolutely certain he knows what he's heard because we have to go down this path far too much as it is when there is racism. If we can avoid incidents like this where it seems there wasnt any actual incident then it benefits all involved
 

newbie

Well-Known Member
Jul 16, 2004
6,051
6,342
Does it matter if it was wrong? We don't want to discourage people calling discrimination out. If there's no evidence, then there's no evidence. Draw a line under it and move on. We don't need an apology or anything.

The whole point to this, and to things like #MeToo and what not, is to wholesale change casual attitudes of discrimination/exploitation/abuse. To challenge even the smallest example of prejudice (which the apologists would call "banter"), in order to put a permanent end to the extremes (slavery, rape, genocide etc).

So fuck the Daily Mail's thinly veiled attempt to demonise Rudiger and the likes of Neville and MOTD for daring to have a pop at the politicians. The mail are speaking to their reader base, trying to maintain the Nationalist narrative set by themselves and the goverment they support.

Yes, it matters if he was wrong Spurs have been labeled racist! If he was right then yes it is unacceptable a player has to endure that!

So is there potentially irony in that Rudiger is the racist for treating a load of white people like racists because they are white. Bloody hell this is a nightmare!

If Rudiger had been ginger no one would have given a shit what was said to him!

I completely agree though racism is unacceptable so are death threats and the abuse players get it should not just be the racism which is singled out players are human and all deserve protection.
 
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Tim Spur Would

Well-Known Member
Sep 18, 2018
180
517
At this point I wish they would have found a guilty party so we could have some closure and move on. Getting tired of reading the same arguments on what Rudiger heard and what should happen to him in the aftermath with no condemning evidence to support his accusation. An online forum for sport is the worst place to argue your view on legal process, race, and politics. It only divides.
 

ohtottenham!

Well-Known Member
Aug 15, 2013
7,497
13,030
People aren't ready to handle a debate about racism on here, they never will be.
That's true, and true of web forums in general. We're all different colours, ethnicities, ages, have different life experiences etc., All of that defines our world view and much more.

The obvious, unifying element here is...we're all Spurs fans. I'm just focused on what the club does here, and they've done a great job.
 

double0

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2006
14,423
12,258
(IF) Rudiger mis heard the chant or the technology can't detect the chants then questions will be asked of Rudiers integrality it'll be open season for him to be openly abused, you can bet your last penny most will be racial a lot of people will think it deserved ( the boy that cried wolf).
This brings the term "Playing the Race Card" which imo is code to burying ones head in the sand and for people be clever with words phrases towards other.

Lets though ask the question what if Rudiger lied....What should be the punishment? should the punishment be greater less or equal
Will that change your perception on racism? (yes/no)
What protocol best eliminates doubt?
 

mark87

Well-Known Member
Nov 29, 2004
36,032
114,069
I'd like to think Rudiger wouldn't lie about it and I'd prefer to think he mis-took the boos for monkey chants, or, as it has been mentioned here previously, heard the who let the yids out song and thought it was monkey chants which is very easily done with that particular song.

I think the benefit of the doubt must be given to Rudiger here if it we are unable to prove any racist abuse from any of our fans, I really don't think he would make it up, it would be utterly moronic to do something like that.
 

JCRD

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2018
19,153
30,013
Does it matter if it was wrong? We don't want to discourage people calling discrimination out. If there's no evidence, then there's no evidence. Draw a line under it and move on. We don't need an apology or anything.

The whole point to this, and to things like #MeToo and what not, is to wholesale change casual attitudes of discrimination/exploitation/abuse. To challenge even the smallest example of prejudice (which the apologists would call "banter"), in order to put a permanent end to the extremes (slavery, rape, genocide etc).

So fuck the Daily Mail's thinly veiled attempt to demonise Rudiger and the likes of Neville and MOTD for daring to have a pop at the politicians. The mail are speaking to their reader base, trying to maintain the Nationalist narrative set by themselves and the goverment they support.


The danger with that is 'mud sticks'. Calling out discrminiation is fine but it is such a dangerous thing to say without considering the repercussions if it turns out to be absolutely nothing...

I dont actually know how this situation has been concluded or wther there is still further investigation and if it is by an independent body/review etc.
 

Gassin's finest

C'est diabolique
May 12, 2010
37,355
87,829
Yes, it matters if he was wrong Spurs have been labeled racist! If he was right then yes it is unacceptable a player has to endure that!

So is there potentially irony in that Rudiger is the racist for treating a load of white people like racists because they are white. Bloody hell this is a nightmare!

If Rudiger had been ginger no one would have given a shit what was said to him!

I completely agree though racism is unacceptable so are death threats and the abuse players get it should not just be the racism which is singled out players are human and all deserve protection.
What a load of barely legible shite.
 

Gassin's finest

C'est diabolique
May 12, 2010
37,355
87,829
The danger with that is 'mud sticks'. Calling out discrminiation is fine but it is such a dangerous thing to say without considering the repercussions if it turns out to be absolutely nothing...

I dont actually know how this situation has been concluded or wther there is still further investigation and if it is by an independent body/review etc.
What has stuck? That someone might've been a neanderthal ****?
 

Lenn0n

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2011
244
342
It matters hugely if it's not corrected, in that we'll see an escalation in sanctions against the club, if only because politicians enjoy being seen to call for action. The media narrative is that Spurs fans were guilty of racially abusing Rudiger within minutes of the incident, so who's going to stick up for us the next time someone thinks he's heard something?
With all the cameras and stewards something would have been caught like at every other ground it has happened at, we can not take his word as proof without evidence, so it’s a free pass for anyone to say they heard 1 person out of 60000 make a racist remake or noise? What a future we have ?
People aren't ready to handle a debate about racism on here, they never will be.

Its impossible to have a sensible conversation about racism in all walks of life not just this site. It is always safer to criticise so-called racists than argue perhaps a mistake was made. One incident of alleged racism and the TV channels feel duty bound to stop all football punditry and talk about racism - because they fear criticism of trivialising the issue.

Please dont think I support racism - but I am frustrated that anyone who comments to the effect that (say Rudiger) got it wrong, or possible made it up seems to have the burden of proof on their shoulders.

Racism is very nasty. To label a club or individual as a racist (if you/they are not) is likewise very nasty. We need to take enough time to gather evidence, and if we are sure a racist act has occurred then act. I hope Rudiger was very sure - because there is a lot at stake.
 

Lenn0n

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2011
244
342
I'd like to think Rudiger wouldn't lie about it and I'd prefer to think he mis-took the boos for monkey chants, or, as it has been mentioned here previously, heard the who let the yids out song and thought it was monkey chants which is very easily done with that particular song.

I think the benefit of the doubt must be given to Rudiger here if it we are unable to prove any racist abuse from any of our fans, I really don't think he would make it up, it would be utterly moronic to do something like that.

I watched Rudiger play acting on Sons' red card. His reaction was 90% fiction - or at least an element of what I saw was dishonest. Maybe he is not the most accurate witness?

Id like to see clubs set up a whistleblowing text number - with an instruction that people seeing/hearing racist behaviour should raise the issue through a text, citing their seat number and description of the incident and approximately where it is coming from. If the club receives a series of texts from an area of the ground, they can then watch that area very closely, more stewards can be sent to the location etc. Alternatively people can video the behaviour and send it to the text number. Lets try and get the facts.
 

Dinghy

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2005
6,326
15,561
Id like to see clubs set up a whistleblowing text number - with an instruction that people seeing/hearing racist behaviour should raise the issue through a text, citing their seat number and description of the incident and approximately where it is coming from.
Guessing you don't get to many games? That's been in existence for several years.
 

longtimespur

Well-Known Member
Sep 10, 2014
5,830
9,949
What I would like is for a decision be reached and verified. Then we will either be associated with racism or cleared of it.
 

LeSoupeKitchen

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2011
3,102
7,621
Does it matter if it was wrong? We don't want to discourage people calling discrimination out. If there's no evidence, then there's no evidence. Draw a line under it and move on. We don't need an apology or anything.

The whole point to this, and to things like #MeToo and what not, is to wholesale change casual attitudes of discrimination/exploitation/abuse. To challenge even the smallest example of prejudice (which the apologists would call "banter"), in order to put a permanent end to the extremes (slavery, rape, genocide etc).

So fuck the Daily Mail's thinly veiled attempt to demonise Rudiger and the likes of Neville and MOTD for daring to have a pop at the politicians. The mail are speaking to their reader base, trying to maintain the Nationalist narrative set by themselves and the goverment they support.

I am certain Rudiger has been completely genuine with what he's reported.

I am certain you have to create an environment where people can come forward if they experience racism.

But of course it matters if he was wrong.
 
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