ENIC...

[joelstinton14]

Nonsense again and missing the point. We haven't been winning things, and currently look as far from it as any time in the last decade since the Redknapp years. Therefore you have little grounds for supposing in your previous post that even if we did finally win something it would be instantly discarded by our fans who'd demand more. I personally think the opposite would more likely be true.

To be fair we been 90/180 minutes away from winning several trophies in an era which have been Dominated by two money clubs: Chelsea and Man City who have won, by my quick maths 23/45 of available trophies (league, FA Cup, League cup) since 2005, a time where arsenal were good and Man Utd too. It’s been ridiculous how those two clubs (Chelsea and City) have monopolised winning trophies.

I know football is a passionate game but our trajectory has been upwards. We’re in a blip , but we have had a couple of those along the way (Ramos, End of AVB) as well, but we regrouped and moved forward again. It may be hard to see at the moment but i do think those trophies will come.

Everything is in place now. The question is now whether we can cross that line.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

Why is it astonishing? Why it so surprising that a sports team can go on a losing streak. We have watched all the rest of the top 6 teams do it over the past decade so why is it astonishing about us?

I feel that a lot of people forget that it wasn't too long ago we were looking at the fixture schedule and trying to calculate how many points we would need to squeak into the Europa league. Surely nobody can have a reasonable expectation that our progress should be constant every single year? How on earth would that be realistic?

It's truly depressing reading this thread. People throwing around some absolute nonsense whilst being so sure they are right. It makes me think that had we won the CL last year those same people wouldn't have enjoyed it. I wonder how you would have felt being there?

You're the one person I think in the last few pages who has had a bit of acceptance of an alternate view which is good. But if you read your own posts can you see the bias? That everything that has gone well has been luck, everything that has gone badly is because of the owners. Do you genuinely believe that to be true?

Hey mate so here is my longer response as I fundamentally think its just negligence and because ENIC and Levy have previous of not addressing key areas in the squad I'm not really surprised a sport team has gone on a losing streak I just feel that as fans we are being let down by the way the football side of the club is being run whilst we are being charged pretty much the highest ticket prices in the league.

When I say its quite simply negligence that is because I can't name one other team in world football who started off the season with just one recognised striker, most have 3-4 or absolute minimum 2 yet we have got ourselves into a situation where we have one and have run that one into the ground so much so that he tore his hamstring and needed an operation.

It is depressing reading this thread you're right and some posters are OTT in their criticism for Levy/ENIC because on one hand they've transformed the club with the new stadium and training ground and our league finishes have pretty much consistently improved under their ownership but at the same time some of the managerial appointments and squad management/transfer decisions have been pretty poor which is one of the reasons why we've only won 1 trophy in the last 20 years.

The reason fans are 'depressed' is because they realise that we had something really great and special with Poch and with the squads that he built but for a number of reasons in the space of about 1-2 seasons that team has been decimated and key key players haven't been adequately replaced. Sure I accept that funds were tight whilst we were building the stadium but to not sign anyone for two transfer windows and to not got into the season with more than 1 striker are just not good enough. Also it looks like Levy has made yet another managerial blunder with hiring Jose who is the antithesis of everything that we as a club supposedly stand for and that Poch had built. Yes Jose has been dealt a very tricky hand and in some ways is handling certain elements of it well but slowly but surely we are seeing the negative Mouriniho coming out in the press slagging off players such as NDombele publicly, saying that he wishes it was July 1st, saying that the Leipzig bench would get into our 1st XI, not whilst most of those comments are probably true none of them are helpful at all in building a positive atmosphere round the club and so again I leave the blame at Levy/ENIC's door for how they've managed the situation which has now lead to our team being a complete mess and the fans feeling very angry and toxic.

I'm not sure what your point is about how we'd have felt if we'd won the CL, me and my old man took 4 planes and 2 trains there and back and spent a shed load of money to go so trust me after 30 and 60 years of supporting spurs each we'd have been bloody over the moon ecstatic if we'd won the CL as that would've been the huge achievement that the squad, poch and fans deserved after the past 4-5 years but alas it was not to be and it was devastating losing it but that is where I expect the club to bounce back stronger like Liverpool did and we have instead imploded.

I do get your point about things going well being luck and things that haven't are the owners fault, 100% get that. I do acknowledge that we've for example made some really excellent signings under ENIC's leadership and to be fair Levy did headhunt Poch he has to be given credit for that but if you look at all 8 managerial hires I'd say only 2 of them have been a success and the 3rd one Martin Jol basically fell into the job as he was the assistant manager, furthermore the treatment of our managers when we fire them is disgusting. Martin Jol was sacked during a game, I was at that game and will hold that against Levy/ENIC for a long time, that man did so much for our club and we had some incredible days to not even have the courtesy to sit him down in his office and explain the decision to sack him was a disgrace, the same thing happened to Harry Redknapp who was also fired prematurely in my opinion as yet again we went backwards under the manager who followed (AVB) and then the same thing has happened to Poch, he didn't even get a chance to say goodbye to the players after all he'd done for us. I think this type of behaviour also shines through in the TSHT board meetings where numerous comments by Levy show that the fans are really an afterthought and that profit comes first.

So to summarise I do see the good things Levy and ENIC have done and am hugely hugely grateful for that and realise that compared to some similar clubs like Everton, Aston Villa, Newcastle, Leeds etc we've been run very well BUT its the running of the football side of the business which could've and can still be so much better and also the treatment of the fans and to be honest the position we are in now having gone from the best mood and feeling around the club under Poch a season or two ago to now where the squad is a complete mess and our manager is only adding fuel to the fire of negativity well that is all on Levy/ENIC and their negligence in running the football side of our club.

So I'm not necessarily saying ENIC/Levy out BUT I am saying that Levy needs to handover the running of the football side of the business as there is no clear structure or plan, he's also clearly very hard to work with which has probably effected how effective managers can be when they don't have a smooth relationship with the chairman, Paul Mitchell handing in his notice and going to Leipzig is a prime example of Levy pissing people off, you could also see in Poch's body language when he was around Levy that he was never very comfortable. We need proper football people working on the football side of the club otherwise we will keep getting this up and down rinse and repeat scenario which is one reason why we've only won 1 trophy in 20 years.

 

[WiganSpur]

Hey mate so here is my longer response as I fundamentally think its just negligence and because ENIC and Levy have previous of not addressing key areas in the squad I'm not really surprised a sport team has gone on a losing streak I just feel that as fans we are being let down by the way the football side of the club is being run whilst we are being charged pretty much the highest ticket prices in the league.

When I say its quite simply negligence that is because I can't name one other team in world football who started off the season with just one recognised striker, most have 3-4 or absolute minimum 2 yet we have got ourselves into a situation where we have one and have run that one into the ground so much so that he tore his hamstring and needed an operation.

It is depressing reading this thread you're right and some posters are OTT in their criticism for Levy/ENIC because on one hand they've transformed the club with the new stadium and training ground and our league finishes have pretty much consistently improved under their ownership but at the same time some of the managerial appointments and squad management/transfer decisions have been pretty poor which is one of the reasons why we've only won 1 trophy in the last 20 years.

The reason fans are 'depressed' is because they realise that we had something really great and special with Poch and with the squads that he built but for a number of reasons in the space of about 1-2 seasons that team has been decimated and key key players haven't been adequately replaced. Sure I accept that funds were tight whilst we were building the stadium but to not sign anyone for two transfer windows and to not got into the season with more than 1 striker are just not good enough. Also it looks like Levy has made yet another managerial blunder with hiring Jose who is the antithesis of everything that we as a club supposedly stand for and that Poch had built. Yes Jose has been dealt a very tricky hand and in some ways is handling certain elements of it well but slowly but surely we are seeing the negative Mouriniho coming out in the press slagging off players such as NDombele publicly, saying that he wishes it was July 1st, saying that the Leipzig bench would get into our 1st XI, not whilst most of those comments are probably true none of them are helpful at all in building a positive atmosphere round the club and so again I leave the blame at Levy/ENIC's door for how they've managed the situation which has now lead to our team being a complete mess and the fans feeling very angry and toxic.

I'm not sure what your point is about how we'd have felt if we'd won the CL, me and my old man took 4 planes and 2 trains there and back and spent a shed load of money to go so trust me after 30 and 60 years of supporting spurs each we'd have been bloody over the moon ecstatic if we'd won the CL as that would've been the huge achievement that the squad, poch and fans deserved after the past 4-5 years but alas it was not to be and it was devastating losing it but that is where I expect the club to bounce back stronger like Liverpool did and we have instead imploded.

I do get your point about things going well being luck and things that haven't are the owners fault, 100% get that. I do acknowledge that we've for example made some really excellent signings under ENIC's leadership and to be fair Levy did headhunt Poch he has to be given credit for that but if you look at all 8 managerial hires I'd say only 2 of them have been a success and the 3rd one Martin Jol basically fell into the job as he was the assistant manager, furthermore the treatment of our managers when we fire them is disgusting. Martin Jol was sacked during a game, I was at that game and will hold that against Levy/ENIC for a long time, that man did so much for our club and we had some incredible days to not even have the courtesy to sit him down in his office and explain the decision to sack him was a disgrace, the same thing happened to Harry Redknapp who was also fired prematurely in my opinion as yet again we went backwards under the manager who followed (AVB) and then the same thing has happened to Poch, he didn't even get a chance to say goodbye to the players after all he'd done for us. I think this type of behaviour also shines through in the TSHT board meetings where numerous comments by Levy show that the fans are really an afterthought and that profit comes first.

So to summarise I do see the good things Levy and ENIC have done and am hugely hugely grateful for that and realise that compared to some similar clubs like Everton, Aston Villa, Newcastle, Leeds etc we've been run very well BUT its the running of the football side of the business which could've and can still be so much better and also the treatment of the fans and to be honest the position we are in now having gone from the best mood and feeling around the club under Poch a season or two ago to now where the squad is a complete mess and our manager is only adding fuel to the fire of negativity well that is all on Levy/ENIC and their negligence in running the football side of our club.

So I'm not necessarily saying ENIC/Levy out BUT I am saying that Levy needs to handover the running of the football side of the business as there is no clear structure or plan, he's also clearly very hard to work with which has probably effected how effective managers can be when they don't have a smooth relationship with the chairman, Paul Mitchell handing in his notice and going to Leipzig is a prime example of Levy pissing people off, you could also see in Poch's body language when he was around Levy that he was never very comfortable. We need proper football people working on the football side of the club otherwise we will keep getting this up and down rinse and repeat scenario which is one reason why we've only won 1 trophy in 20 years.

We tried this in the summer of 2013 when we sold Bale and got Baldini in. It worked really well and really helped us to get things moving on the transfer front. The problem with some of those signings was just simply the scouting. In terms of getting players of need in it was a great window.

However, Levy quickly quashed the structure because he just can't cede control. That's why he's hesitated on getting Campos or any other DOF in. It's his way or no way, and since I don't like his way I don't see a choice if we want to progress.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

We tried this in the summer of 2013 when we sold Bale and got Baldini in. It worked really well and really helped us to get things moving on the transfer front. The problem with some of those signings was just simply the scouting. In terms of getting players of need in it was a great window.

However, Levy quickly quashed the structure because he just can't cede control. That's why he's hesitated on getting Campos or any other DOF in. It's his way or no way, and since I don't like his way I don't see a choice if we want to progress.

Agree with this mate.
Its strange though as Harry Redknapp thinks he was sacked to get a DofF in as that's the model Levy prefers and like you say after we moved to that model again Levy swapped it back out so he could have more control. The way Levy handles the transfers with regards to pennypinching and trying to do every deal on the last day of the window has been another reason why we've had poor starts to seasons etc, he really holds us back in so many ways on the football side of the club.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

View attachment 64599
View attachment 64600
So no signing striker in January is Levy and not Levy fault at the same time?

haha correct this is why its so hard to criticise levy as its his fault but its also not his fault. Levy/ENIC in out shake it all about.

 

[Bulletspur]

As with most things in life, none of the extreme arguments for or against ENIC really tell the whole story. In an earlier post, I gave ENIC 6/10 (4/5 on the commercial side and 2/5 on the footballing operations side). Whether or not ENIC have been a success or not can only be determined if we baseline what success actually means. For some, a healthy balance sheet, a pretty stadium, low net spend are all important for our long term growth. In this respect, they would deem a lack of on field success as inevitable given that we have invested in two huge capital projects in recent years. This, of course is an anathema to others who believe that compromises could have been made (i.e. build a less expensive stadium) and greater investment should have been made in the squad.

My personal view is that ENIC's priorities (not aims) are not aligned with that of most of our fans. Their priorities are to turn NWHL into a multi-sports and entertainment venue that will yield stellar returns for them. To do so they will invest in fixed assets and in projects that will generate recurring revenue for them. They will focus on customer (not fan) experience so that everyone who comes to NWHL spends as much money as possible while they are. The new stadium genuinely is a great place to socialise and prices are lower than that of other comparable venues, so in this respect, again ENIC have delivered on their priorities.

As Spurs fans, we of course want to see us compete at the top table in a footballing sense. Most fans understand that we are not Man Utd or Liverpool and cannot spend billions like Chelsea, but the likes of Dortmund, Ajax, Porto and ourselves under Poch have all shown it is possible to build a competitive squad with the right tools in place. In this respective, on the footballing side, ENIC have been a horror show. By any objective measure we've been a disaster...multiple sackings, many years of poor football, windows in which no/poor signings have been made, terrible conduct with respect to transfers and just 1 trophy to show for it.

My main assertion as to why we have been so poor in a football sense centres around my belief that football success is an AIM but not a PRIORITY for ENIC. Many fans think that the two are inextricably linked but I don't think that they are. I think that ENIC believe that the new generation of fan is looking for a great experience when they go to NWHL. Of course they want the team to win, but if the experience is a fantastic one then they will most likely go back again. In this respect, the footballing successful become incidental in the whole customer experience. The guy who stood on the Shelf having the back of his legs pissed on is not the target fan for ENIC, not least because typically he isn't going to spend a lot of money. The target fans for ENIC are families and those with a connection to the club who will come along and enjoy the day out, irrespective of result.

All of the above really is a preamble for what I believe to be the most salient point. Personally, I don't believe that ENIC wants us to be in CL year after year, as it will require significant investment (with an opaque pathway to a return) and no guarantee of increased value for them. At first glance that appears counter-intuitive. However, even if Joe Lewis and Daniel Levy were huge fans of the club (which they may or may not be), their first priority is to the investment company and hence, as long as we are competing for EL, flirting with CL and doing it all on a small budget, then that is success to them and their first and only priority. Only when that is threatened on an ongoing basis will significant holistic investment (not one off windows, but ongoing investment, window after window) be made.

What you have implied and if true, is the that ENIC / Levy wants to run the club as a sporting and entertainment enterprise with Football being incidental, when it should be the other way around ie Football first and everything else incidental. If that is really the case then they can fuck off and sell the club to a owner with a Football interest

 

[Wsussexspur]

View attachment 64599
View attachment 64600
So no signing striker in January is Levy and not Levy fault at the same time?

This is why you always take ITK with a pinch of salt

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

As with most things in life, none of the extreme arguments for or against ENIC really tell the whole story. In an earlier post, I gave ENIC 6/10 (4/5 on the commercial side and 2/5 on the footballing operations side). Whether or not ENIC have been a success or not can only be determined if we baseline what success actually means. For some, a healthy balance sheet, a pretty stadium, low net spend are all important for our long term growth. In this respect, they would deem a lack of on field success as inevitable given that we have invested in two huge capital projects in recent years. This, of course is an anathema to others who believe that compromises could have been made (i.e. build a less expensive stadium) and greater investment should have been made in the squad.

My personal view is that ENIC's priorities (not aims) are not aligned with that of most of our fans. Their priorities are to turn NWHL into a multi-sports and entertainment venue that will yield stellar returns for them. To do so they will invest in fixed assets and in projects that will generate recurring revenue for them. They will focus on customer (not fan) experience so that everyone who comes to NWHL spends as much money as possible while they are. The new stadium genuinely is a great place to socialise and prices are lower than that of other comparable venues, so in this respect, again ENIC have delivered on their priorities.

As Spurs fans, we of course want to see us compete at the top table in a footballing sense. Most fans understand that we are not Man Utd or Liverpool and cannot spend billions like Chelsea, but the likes of Dortmund, Ajax, Porto and ourselves under Poch have all shown it is possible to build a competitive squad with the right tools in place. In this respective, on the footballing side, ENIC have been a horror show. By any objective measure we've been a disaster...multiple sackings, many years of poor football, windows in which no/poor signings have been made, terrible conduct with respect to transfers and just 1 trophy to show for it.

My main assertion as to why we have been so poor in a football sense centres around my belief that football success is an AIM but not a PRIORITY for ENIC. Many fans think that the two are inextricably linked but I don't think that they are. I think that ENIC believe that the new generation of fan is looking for a great experience when they go to NWHL. Of course they want the team to win, but if the experience is a fantastic one then they will most likely go back again. In this respect, the footballing successful become incidental in the whole customer experience. The guy who stood on the Shelf having the back of his legs pissed on is not the target fan for ENIC, not least because typically he isn't going to spend a lot of money. The target fans for ENIC are families and those with a connection to the club who will come along and enjoy the day out, irrespective of result.

All of the above really is a preamble for what I believe to be the most salient point. Personally, I don't believe that ENIC wants us to be in CL year after year, as it will require significant investment (with an opaque pathway to a return) and no guarantee of increased value for them. At first glance that appears counter-intuitive. However, even if Joe Lewis and Daniel Levy were huge fans of the club (which they may or may not be), their first priority is to the investment company and hence, as long as we are competing for EL, flirting with CL and doing it all on a small budget, then that is success to them and their first and only priority. Only when that is threatened on an ongoing basis will significant holistic investment (not one off windows, but ongoing investment, window after window) be made.

Very good post!

 

[vegassd]

So I'm not necessarily saying ENIC/Levy out BUT I am saying that Levy needs to handover the running of the football side of the business as there is no clear structure or plan, he's also clearly very hard to work with which has probably effected how effective managers can be when they don't have a smooth relationship with the chairman, Paul Mitchell handing in his notice and going to Leipzig is a prime example of Levy pissing people off, you could also see in Poch's body language when he was around Levy that he was never very comfortable. We need proper football people working on the football side of the club otherwise we will keep getting this up and down rinse and repeat scenario which is one reason why we've only won 1 trophy in 20 years.

Massive credit for coming back with this and what a great post. I know a lot of people don't like the long ones and it's hard if you're on a phone or whatever, but there's so much in here that I agree with you on it's great to be able to get into the meat of it!

Firstly I totally agree about Jol. That was as close to "unforgivable" as possible in my book. That was a horrible night to be a Spurs fan and I can't see any reason why they (Levy etc.) couldn't have done it differently. It's actually part of what winds me up about much of the ENIC debate is that we going in circles with the spending stuff where really I think we should be on them for the management stuff like this.

Almost all transfer type talk is a bit of a smoke screen in my eyes - particularly the striker thing. Yes it would be lovely to have a Kane replacement ready to go but we've had that sort of setup previously and it hasn't worked well. Having flexible attackers like Son and Alli can be more effective but they need to be managed better. But with all that said I think the playing squad is a fluid thing and taking a snapshot then criticising it with hindsight is not a solid way to go about things.

I personally think that ENIC are quite a soulless entity and it's a shame to see that in our club. I honestly cringe when I hear Levy talk about Spurs because you can tell he operates in a world that is very far removed from us normal fans - much like how many politicians wouldn't know the price of a pint. What I admire is their strategy for long-term competitiveness. I don't personally like how long it's taking and I feel awful for Poch because he essentially outperformed the strategy and paid for it, but I am grateful that there is a strategy there.

I'll never agree about the use of the word "negligence" but for ease of use I would say that it is more negligent as a chairman to allow a club to fall so far behind commercially that the opportunity to compete shrinks to almost zero. That's probably my best summary of how I feel about ENIC... for all their failings to date on a micro level at least they are doing well on the macro level. The idea is that if we are "there or thereabouts" then we only need tweaks to have a chance of success. If we are not even "there or thereabouts" then what realistic hope is there of winning?

To put some numbers on that you can look at the last 10 winners of each domestic cup. Out of those 20 winners only 3 were from outside the "big six" and I would guess that this trend will only strengthen. That effectively means that at the start of the season if you aren't in the "big six" you have a roughly 15% chance of winning something based on past seasons. And that's not 15% chance each... that's 15% shared between all those clubs. I find that terrifying.

As Spurs fans we have been in limbo somewhat because I think our owners have been so focused on getting us into that 85% group that we haven't been spending enough time making the tweaks that will actually get us a trophy. That needs to improve, it really does. There's no point being in the 85% group if we never actually win anything, as WiganSpur said. I just wish our fanbase would more often acknowledge that this strategy requires patience and try our best to afford that patience. That patience will expire but I don't think we are at that expiry point yet.


PS. great effort to make it out the CL final. My point there was based on my own Dad - he's a full on fatalist when it comes to Spurs and when I watched the 2008 final with him he couldn't find a way to celebrate it. I think he even said something like "I bet we get relegated next season now". That's the image I have in my head of many of the posters on here who seem to do nothing but complain. That old phrase that if you expect the worst you'll never be disappointed... I think it actually means you are permanently disappointed.

 

[nedley]

Anybody commented or talked about the recent Sky Harry Redknapp interview?

 

[topper]

Anybody commented or talked about the recent Sky Harry Redknapp interview?

No but feel free!

 

[coys200]

Interesting thought that just dawned on me. When the stadium is fully up and running:

gate receipts + £70m
Non football events £30-50m
Naming rights £20-25m
New shop £8m

Could be as much as £150m a year in extra revenue. Over 20 years that’s £3bn. Which is more than Mansour or Abramovich have put in.

 

[dontcallme]

Anybody commented or talked about the recent Sky Harry Redknapp interview?

Watching it now. He's spoken about his time up to Spurs and just starting his piece about his time with us and dealings with Levy.

Spoke very highly of Palacios.

First thing he said about Levy was he had a great relationship with him and praised him for his achievements in getting the training ground and stadium all in place.

About to watch the rest but think those waiting for him to slag off Levy are going to be disappointed.

 

[dontcallme]

Watching it now. He's spoken about his time up to Spurs and just starting his piece about his time with us and dealings with Levy.

Spoke very highly of Palacios.

First thing he said about Levy was he had a great relationship with him and praised him for his achievements in getting the training ground and stadium all in place.

About to watch the rest but think those waiting for him to slag off Levy are going to be disappointed.

Actually was closer to the end than I thought. Nothing juicy, just spoke highly of the club and Levy. Did say he didn't get given a reason for losing the job but that's it.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

Anybody commented or talked about the recent Sky Harry Redknapp interview?

I mentioned how he'd said that he thought he got fired by DL because he wanted to move back to a DofF model but that the firing came with absolutely 0 warning very much out of the blue just like with Jol and Poch etc.

He also said levy will fight for every last Nickle and called him a wheeler dealer LOL

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

Massive credit for coming back with this and what a great post. I know a lot of people don't like the long ones and it's hard if you're on a phone or whatever, but there's so much in here that I agree with you on it's great to be able to get into the meat of it!

Firstly I totally agree about Jol. That was as close to "unforgivable" as possible in my book. That was a horrible night to be a Spurs fan and I can't see any reason why they (Levy etc.) couldn't have done it differently. It's actually part of what winds me up about much of the ENIC debate is that we going in circles with the spending stuff where really I think we should be on them for the management stuff like this.

Almost all transfer type talk is a bit of a smoke screen in my eyes - particularly the striker thing. Yes it would be lovely to have a Kane replacement ready to go but we've had that sort of setup previously and it hasn't worked well. Having flexible attackers like Son and Alli can be more effective but they need to be managed better. But with all that said I think the playing squad is a fluid thing and taking a snapshot then criticising it with hindsight is not a solid way to go about things.

I personally think that ENIC are quite a soulless entity and it's a shame to see that in our club. I honestly cringe when I hear Levy talk about Spurs because you can tell he operates in a world that is very far removed from us normal fans - much like how many politicians wouldn't know the price of a pint. What I admire is their strategy for long-term competitiveness. I don't personally like how long it's taking and I feel awful for Poch because he essentially outperformed the strategy and paid for it, but I am grateful that there is a strategy there.

I'll never agree about the use of the word "negligence" but for ease of use I would say that it is more negligent as a chairman to allow a club to fall so far behind commercially that the opportunity to compete shrinks to almost zero. That's probably my best summary of how I feel about ENIC... for all their failings to date on a micro level at least they are doing well on the macro level. The idea is that if we are "there or thereabouts" then we only need tweaks to have a chance of success. If we are not even "there or thereabouts" then what realistic hope is there of winning?

To put some numbers on that you can look at the last 10 winners of each domestic cup. Out of those 20 winners only 3 were from outside the "big six" and I would guess that this trend will only strengthen. That effectively means that at the start of the season if you aren't in the "big six" you have a roughly 15% chance of winning something based on past seasons. And that's not 15% chance each... that's 15% shared between all those clubs. I find that terrifying.

As Spurs fans we have been in limbo somewhat because I think our owners have been so focused on getting us into that 85% group that we haven't been spending enough time making the tweaks that will actually get us a trophy. That needs to improve, it really does. There's no point being in the 85% group if we never actually win anything, as WiganSpur said. I just wish our fanbase would more often acknowledge that this strategy requires patience and try our best to afford that patience. That patience will expire but I don't think we are at that expiry point yet.


PS. great effort to make it out the CL final. My point there was based on my own Dad - he's a full on fatalist when it comes to Spurs and when I watched the 2008 final with him he couldn't find a way to celebrate it. I think he even said something like "I bet we get relegated next season now". That's the image I have in my head of many of the posters on here who seem to do nothing but complain. That old phrase that if you expect the worst you'll never be disappointed... I think it actually means you are permanently disappointed.

Some more great points from you here and its nice to have a balanced discussion on this. Its the same as those in the Mouriniho thread, some just want him to fail and never wanted him and everything is his fault, some are staunch supporters of Jose and he can't do wrong and others find the middle ground and see both side of the arguement and see it for what the situation actually is, just like here with Levy/ENIC, they've done a whole lot of great things for our club but as you say they're a pretty souless organisation very disconnected from how the fans feel and approach supporting the club and they need to step away or improve their running of the football side of the club.

Also completely agree about the winners of domestic cups and i'm realistic that without spending billions like Chelsea and Man.City have done or by being an already top top club like Man.U/Liverpool and hate to say it but Arsenal as well then actually winning trophies over the last 20-30 years has been a hugely difficult task for anyone outside of the 3-5 big big clubs either big by stature or sudden financial backing. BUT I do think that if ENIC had run the football operations side of the club better then we'd probably have another league cup mabye 1-2 FA Cups and possibly just possibly even a league title to our names and those fine margins are frustrating especially when you can now see other emerging clubs like Wolves and Leicester doing things the right way and competition gets ever more fierce, we needed to and need to get the running of the football side of the club absoloutely pin point now in order to get over the line for success.

To add to my point above, you're also spot on that the route we've gone down with the stadium and training group etc is a long-term route and requires patience I absolutely get that and we have seen in the last 2 transfer windows that we've strengtherned the squad somewhat and if that level of spend continues and keeps increasing in-line with our stadium debt reducing and revenue increasing then that is a positive sign but its more the fact that ENIC have a history of making poor football decisions and are also so disconnected from the fans that I feel that success and trophies aside the soul of the club is dying a little bit which for me is a real real shame.

And yes CL final was incredible and I'm certainly not a pessimist like you say your old man is, if anything i'm a real optimist (kind of have to be to keep supporting spurs haha!) but i'm also realist and can see the good things ENIC/Levy have done and where they've brought the club to now which is incredible and so impressive but in my opinion hiring Jose is yet another poor managerial choice/mistake and letting him re-build a squad will yet again set us back a year or two and its these constant mistakes on the football operations side and the comments Levy makes in the THST trust which make me and others feel as you've said that ENIC/Levy are soulless and that is why the longer this goes on and the more actions they take behaving like this the more I feel like they should leave the club because the fans and football should come first and as another poster rightly pointed out, we are a consideration but we are not the main objective for them and that is a fundamental problem.

Anyway onwards and upwards and I think if we can bring in 5-6 top players next summer to build on what we've done this previous summer and Jan then our squad will be in a good shape, even just bringing in a back-up for Kane would make a massive massive difference, then lets give jose a bit of time and a chance and I hope he proves us wrong, if not then I hope ENIC get the next managerial appointment right and we find another Poch to bring the fans the football and attitude that fits with our great club.

COYS.

 

[mpickard2087]

The Paul Mitchell example that keeps getting used is a bad one. 'Transfer guys' like that are often desperate to impress and show they're some sort of player identification guru, and then kick off if they don't have every single recommendation acted upon and clubs aren't signing up a dozen players every summer.

He came in with the club stabilising and needing minimal addition at that point, it was a bad fit all round.

 

[thebenjamin]

Why is it astonishing? Why it so surprising that a sports team can go on a losing streak. We have watched all the rest of the top 6 teams do it over the past decade so why is it astonishing about us?

I feel that a lot of people forget that it wasn't too long ago we were looking at the fixture schedule and trying to calculate how many points we would need to squeak into the Europa league. Surely nobody can have a reasonable expectation that our progress should be constant every single year? How on earth would that be realistic?

It's truly depressing reading this thread. People throwing around some absolute nonsense whilst being so sure they are right. It makes me think that had we won the CL last year those same people wouldn't have enjoyed it. I wonder how you would have felt being there?

You're the one person I think in the last few pages who has had a bit of acceptance of an alternate view which is good. But if you read your own posts can you see the bias? That everything that has gone well has been luck, everything that has gone badly is because of the owners. Do you genuinely believe that to be true?

To be fair going from the final 2 in the biggest club completion on the planet to absolutely fucking shite in a matter of months, is a little out of the ordinary.

 

[dontcallme]

The Paul Mitchell example that keeps getting used is a bad one. 'Transfer guys' like that are often desperate to impress and show they're some sort of player identification guru, and then kick off if they don't have every single recommendation acted upon and clubs aren't signing up a dozen players every summer.

He came in with the club stabilising and needing minimal addition at that point, it was a bad fit all round.

While this is a fair enough point I do believe Levy’s biggest failing on the playing side has been a failure to put a transfer structure in place that allows for continuity.

If our pricing strategy will not allow us to pay big money then we need a scouting and transfer system in place that fits what we can pay.

 

[wrd]

While this is a fair enough point I do believe Levy’s biggest failing on the playing side has been a failure to put a transfer structure in place that allows for continuity.

If our pricing strategy will not allow us to pay big money then we need a scouting and transfer system in place that fits what we can pay.

Similar to what Leicester achieve.