ENIC...

LeParisien

Wrong about everything
Joined
Mar 5, 2018
Messages
1,765
I think this feeling is the same as many have about the last few years, and personally I think it's missing a slice of the picture. When Poch was under heavy media scrutiny last Jan he said that when he joined Spurs he signed a 5-year deal with the instruction to manage the team on a budget whilst the stadium was built and then get the team into the CL once the stadium was open. That was his task.

He massively over-achieved during his time when measured against that goal. He took us on a rollercoaster that was far beyond anything the owners or us fans could have imagined. But does the rollercoaster ride mean that the club should change the long-term plan that had been put in place; to budget ourselves around the stadium build then look to kick on once it's open? I don't think it should, and unfortunately I think Poch was a victim of his own success.

Anyone who runs their own business, has a mortgage, or is working on an average salary can appreciate the importance of financial planning and being careful about making big purchases. When it comes to talking about Spurs I feel some people don't apply those same balances, when in reality the financial decisions Levy is making will be far more complicated than most of us are ever aware.

We had some info this window about the finances and how the money we borrowed comes with certain restrictions on further expenditure... a bit like if you lent a friend £100 to help make the rent you wouldn't like to see them out on the lash that weekend! Another thing I think gets missed is future-proofing our wage bill. For example, if we want to get Toby and Eriksen to sign new contracts we would need to ring-fence that expected wage before making decisions about which other players we can fit on the wage bill. That would appear sensible to me at least!

So here's my point... considering that none of us know the full in's and out's of what these transfer decisions look like I think it's too simplistic to say things like "his on-pitch strategy has not worked" and "he chose not to back him appropriately". That would be my point of view at all times, but especially in a scenario where the target was top 4 after the stadium opened but the reality became reaching the CL final.

I'm not saying that everything Levy does is golden btw. The Grealish transfer and a seeming lack of perks to ST holders after the stadium delays would be 2 recent things that spring to mind which left a bad taste in the mouth. But to start throwing around "failing", "embarrassing" and "criminal" is an over-reaction in my view, and is where any debate like this falls into madness.

Creative points for "a vampire when it comes to the romance of football" though. :)



And this summarises the futility of this argument. You are saying that we have a great stadium, training facilities and manager but that Levy's ambition is limited to 2nd-4th which doesn't match up to those things. But it has been Levy who has overseen those things. It doesn't make sense... the man either has sporting ambition or he doesn't.

I've made this point before to another poster some time ago - Levy and Lewis are smart men who are very wealthy and do not need to run a football club to make more money. If they were more interested in buying property than winning stuff then they should have spent the last 20 years focused on their property business and luxury hotels. If they were only interested in profit they could have put their energy into more traditional businesses geared towards dividends and salary bonuses that don't come with a footy fan base or media scrutiny.

Imagine if ENIC had bought Aston Villa instead of us. We have no idea what Spurs might have won in that time but let's call it 4 FA Cups whilst staying at WHL and hovering around mid-table. In that time Villa only win 1 trophy but build some of the best facilities in the world, appoint Mourinho as manager and played in the CL final last season. We wouldn't be talking about the transfer targets they missed out on and how they should have won more trophies - we would be talking about adopting the "Aston Villa model".

I have no doubt in my mind that if ENIC were running a different club that the people who so often berate them on here would be full of praise for them. I'm not saying it's wrong to criticise them... but so much of the criticism banded about on here is based on a "grass is greener" philosophy.

You quoted Leicester, Southampton, Chelsea, Brighton and Liverpool as having better owners than us. Can you honestly say that if ENIC owned Aston Villa and had achieved all the same things there that you wouldn't include them in that list? I really think you would.

So what I would ask is that the next time you are thinking about Levy being incompetent, constant failings, criminal negligence or an abusive home consider this; is it because what Levy specifically did warrants those comparisons... or is it because any chairman of the club you love could never live up to your ideals? If it's the latter I don't see how it's useful.
Fantastic post
 

LeParisien

Wrong about everything
Joined
Mar 5, 2018
Messages
1,765
We've done all that you mention because there was clear financial incentive to do so. And i'd be confident 90/95% of Levy Outer's do indeed appreciate what he has done, but believe that it doesn't necessarily mean he is the right man to deliver us consistent trophies.

What's the point of the stadium, the training ground if we don't have some combination of winning trophies and playing attractive football. Wasn't the point that we could pay bigger wages, spend more on transfers and get a better squad of players to deliver that objective consistently? If you don't see us as purely a business, then surely that means Levy wants us to win?

Well fair enough yeah, but then if we want to win then why aren't the board doing everything in their power to get Jose the striker he clearly needs so we can challenge for the FA Cup and the Champions League this season? Don't you see the contradiction?

It's as if our objective is to win, but not this season, always the next. It makes no sense unless you see us only as a business.
No team has invested as well as us since we opened the stadium.
 

WiganSpur

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Joined
Aug 31, 2012
Messages
12,088
No team has invested as well as us since we opened the stadium.
And I agree. But with all those players we bought. Lo Celso, Ndombele, Clarke, Sessegnon, Bergwijn, Fernandes. They're all young players with resale value. They're all great signings but my point is occasionally investing when the footballing case is greater than the financial one because winning should be the most important thing, it's why we're all here.

People can say this striker doesn't exist etc. etc. But I repeat that Jason Burt and I think many other journalists reported our attempt to try and sign Eran Zahavi from China in the dying minutes. There were also reports everywhere that we wanted Ighalo too.

So Jose clearly deemed those two as good enough for us. Now my point is people are saying there is nobody in world football as good as these two available had we stumped up a decent loan fee to get somebody in temporarily for 6 months? I just don't buy it. It's either incompetency or there's just not a great care for winning.
 

fishhhandaricecake

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Joined
Nov 15, 2018
Messages
1,826
Off the pitch excellent and not as excellent on the pitch. I can agree with that. But I don't agree that it is as bad as people say lately. I think he made very hard decision to push aside on pitch success and to focus on facilities and marketing. Because without that, if we for example had won Premier League, we still would be seen as a 'temporary' team. Just like Leicester.

I don't like the statement that he was lucky with Poch cause he was the one that hired him. There was a choice between him and De Boer. And so many of us wanted De Boer, including me! The aim was clear to stay as close to the top team as possible, using young players, academy talents, during stadium development. I think we massively overachived, I don't think Levy expected that and the club wasn't ready then to made the final step to push for the league. Although in Poch era we where in 2 cup finals and 2 FA cup semi finals. We should have done better in those cup competition and that is not on Levy.

Poch wanted us to act like a big club when we weren't ready for that. Levy wanted us to continue act as before, with more gamble on players, young talents etc. That is why I think we ended with two transfer window without buying anyone. Once the stadium was finished, financials are secured and we instantly are doing differently. Ndombele, Lo Celso, Sessegnon and now Gedson and Bergwijn. Of course we are not spending as United or City for obvious reasons but we are now in Liverpool and Chelsea level. That is massive.

It is a shame that one of the best team in our history, with one of the best managers in our history happend in time when the club wasn't able to support them. I can't blame Levy for that. Actually I was but I got over Poch and his team and I see things differently now.

I think we need big team rebuild but I don't think doing it in one or two window is the way to go. We did that with Bale money. Liverpool did that with Suarez money. WHU are doing it every season and they are shit every season. We will see what will happen in summer transfer window. That will be an indicator if I am right about Levy and his plan and ambitions.
This is a fantastic post
 

Wheeler Dealer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2011
Messages
4,297
He believes it doesn’t it he 😂
Nothing in football sneaks under the radar and a story has big as this, would be all over the front and back pages... He's been spending too much time in those Amsterdam coffee shops!
 

buckley

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2012
Messages
1,448
I do come out with some pretty poor stuff sometimes but this is the champion of all champions regards bullshit.
 

Shadydan

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Joined
Jul 7, 2012
Messages
29,235
And I agree. But with all those players we bought. Lo Celso, Ndombele, Clarke, Sessegnon, Bergwijn, Fernandes. They're all young players with resale value. They're all great signings but my point is occasionally investing when the footballing case is greater than the financial one because winning should be the most important thing, it's why we're all here.

People can say this striker doesn't exist etc. etc. But I repeat that Jason Burt and I think many other journalists reported our attempt to try and sign Eran Zahavi from China in the dying minutes. There were also reports everywhere that we wanted Ighalo too.

So Jose clearly deemed those two as good enough for us. Now my point is people are saying there is nobody in world football as good as these two available had we stumped up a decent loan fee to get somebody in temporarily for 6 months? I just don't buy it. It's either incompetency or there's just not a great care for winning.
Why does it have to be one or the other?
 

vegassd

The ghost of Johnny Cash
Joined
Aug 5, 2006
Messages
2,951
People can say this striker doesn't exist etc. etc. But I repeat that Jason Burt and I think many other journalists reported our attempt to try and sign Eran Zahavi from China in the dying minutes. There were also reports everywhere that we wanted Ighalo too.

So Jose clearly deemed those two as good enough for us. Now my point is people are saying there is nobody in world football as good as these two available had we stumped up a decent loan fee to get somebody in temporarily for 6 months? I just don't buy it. It's either incompetency or there's just not a great care for winning.
And therein lies the problem. The fact is that you do not know what conversations have been had between Levy and Mourinho about the possibility of a loan striker. Nobody on this forum does. You take that lack of knowledge, turn it into "I don't buy it" and then turn that into "incompetency or no great care for winning". It's a mental jump based on nothing more than your own opinion and it's the reason why this conversation goes nowhere.

And don't get me wrong, there are plenty of people turning their own lack of knowledge into statements like "Levy has done everything possible" although the reality is that he's probably missed lots of opportunities and made lots of poor moves even without hindsight applied. But that doesn't mean that a failed loan move for Zahavi equals Levy messing up.

Let's consider that deal a bit further. I have never heard of Zahavi before and I doubt many of us have. He's a 32-year old Israeli striker whose primary exposure to European football (according to Wikipedia) was a 2 year spell at Palermo during which time he scored 2 goals. That makes Soldado look proficient!

So I don't see Zahavi being the difference maker between us winning the FA cup or not. In fact I don't see him getting much of any game time ahead of Son, Moura, Alli, Lamela, Lo Celso and now Bergwijn. To my mind it makes sense that we wouldn't push particularly hard for the guy... he would be a "might be nice" option to have but definitely not a "push the boat out" kind of player.

On the flip side of that coin he is a bit of a beast in the Chinese league so you can see why his current club would be very keen to hold on to him. When you marry the two things; a club keen to keep their star striker with a club not too fussed about adding him, it's easy to see why the deal didn't happen.

What's the point in us enquiring in the first place then? Well if you don't ask you don't get and if the deal had lots of upside for us then it's worth our admin guys trying I suppose. It would appear as though the idea was that if we pull off a loan on good terms then great, but if not then don't tie Jose hands for the summer or block a space for our current squad/youth players.

Surely we have all been to a shop before without a specific product in mind but happy to have a browse. If something leaps out as a really great item or at a really great price we might buy it. But if there's nothing amazing then we leave the shop empty handed. Nobody is sat at home that evening thinking "I really messed up my shopping trip" are they?!

You made a point earlier about a poster not even considering the fact that Levy messed up. Well I think it's quite possible to disregard a scenario without having to reverse engineer the whole thing. A&C made a great point somewhere about any anti-ENIC post shouldn't have to point out the good things every time (which is spot on) so surely a post saying we had a good transfer window doesn't need to dissect a late loan move for a no-name striker.

For better or worse Levy is the dude running the club we all love. This point about missing Zahavi (and boyhood United fan Ighalo) feels like a fan searching for reasons to slap him about. Is it really that hard to be content? Or satisfied? Or maybe even happy? Do we have to delve into every murmur on the grapevine to find flaws?

To end on a positive note I do agree with you that to be a successful club (long-term) we need to spend when the footballing case is greater than the financial one at appropriate times. For the first time in many years I think our commercial status has reached the point where that becomes a possibility. But I think those sorts of deals will be far more fruitful once Mourinho has had a full summer window. And let's not kid ourselves that Zahavi is any sort of Zlatan.
 

dontcallme

SC Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2005
Messages
18,359
And therein lies the problem. The fact is that you do not know what conversations have been had between Levy and Mourinho about the possibility of a loan striker. Nobody on this forum does. You take that lack of knowledge, turn it into "I don't buy it" and then turn that into "incompetency or no great care for winning". It's a mental jump based on nothing more than your own opinion and it's the reason why this conversation goes nowhere.

And don't get me wrong, there are plenty of people turning their own lack of knowledge into statements like "Levy has done everything possible" although the reality is that he's probably missed lots of opportunities and made lots of poor moves even without hindsight applied. But that doesn't mean that a failed loan move for Zahavi equals Levy messing up.

Let's consider that deal a bit further. I have never heard of Zahavi before and I doubt many of us have. He's a 32-year old Israeli striker whose primary exposure to European football (according to Wikipedia) was a 2 year spell at Palermo during which time he scored 2 goals. That makes Soldado look proficient!

So I don't see Zahavi being the difference maker between us winning the FA cup or not. In fact I don't see him getting much of any game time ahead of Son, Moura, Alli, Lamela, Lo Celso and now Bergwijn. To my mind it makes sense that we wouldn't push particularly hard for the guy... he would be a "might be nice" option to have but definitely not a "push the boat out" kind of player.

On the flip side of that coin he is a bit of a beast in the Chinese league so you can see why his current club would be very keen to hold on to him. When you marry the two things; a club keen to keep their star striker with a club not too fussed about adding him, it's easy to see why the deal didn't happen.

What's the point in us enquiring in the first place then? Well if you don't ask you don't get and if the deal had lots of upside for us then it's worth our admin guys trying I suppose. It would appear as though the idea was that if we pull off a loan on good terms then great, but if not then don't tie Jose hands for the summer or block a space for our current squad/youth players.

Surely we have all been to a shop before without a specific product in mind but happy to have a browse. If something leaps out as a really great item or at a really great price we might buy it. But if there's nothing amazing then we leave the shop empty handed. Nobody is sat at home that evening thinking "I really messed up my shopping trip" are they?!

You made a point earlier about a poster not even considering the fact that Levy messed up. Well I think it's quite possible to disregard a scenario without having to reverse engineer the whole thing. A&C made a great point somewhere about any anti-ENIC post shouldn't have to point out the good things every time (which is spot on) so surely a post saying we had a good transfer window doesn't need to dissect a late loan move for a no-name striker.

For better or worse Levy is the dude running the club we all love. This point about missing Zahavi (and boyhood United fan Ighalo) feels like a fan searching for reasons to slap him about. Is it really that hard to be content? Or satisfied? Or maybe even happy? Do we have to delve into every murmur on the grapevine to find flaws?

To end on a positive note I do agree with you that to be a successful club (long-term) we need to spend when the footballing case is greater than the financial one at appropriate times. For the first time in many years I think our commercial status has reached the point where that becomes a possibility. But I think those sorts of deals will be far more fruitful once Mourinho has had a full summer window. And let's not kid ourselves that Zahavi is any sort of Zlatan.
You should post more often.
 

JUSTINSIGNAL

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Joined
Jul 10, 2008
Messages
11,864
Gonna say it. I think people that don’t appreciate what levy has done are just ignorant. I saw a breakdown today of West Ham financials. In 10 years they have grown their commercial side £16m we have grown ours £130m. Yes historically we are a bigger club than West Ham. But just over 10 years ago they actually finished above us. We had similar size stadiums. I’d say London fanbase is probably comparable. You can obviously add Newcastle Villa Everton Leeds etc to the list. Yet somehow without a sugar daddy Levy has taken our revenue to £450m + more than double those other clubs. Built the best infrastructure in the league if not Europe. Appointed the 2nd most decorated manager in world football. How anyone can not comprehend the magnitude of these achievements is beyond me.
Of course the silverware hasn’t come. But the big picture was to build the stadium and then spend as we are seeing. But even in the last 20 years we’ve had teams capable of at least winning something. Did levy select Son as a LWB or play an unfit Kane. Levy has done everything he possibly can to make us one of the top 10 clubs in Europe if you can’t see that you’re just blind or stupid.
I think you know what the answer is here...
 

coys200

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Joined
May 22, 2017
Messages
8,358
Honestly can’t see an individual buying us. Who has £2bn laying around to invest in a long term project very few. Will be a big corporation imo. I don’t think levy would sell to some leveraged cowboy like the Glazers. I think he’ll only sell to someone that has the funds in full.
 

carmeldevil

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Joined
May 15, 2018
Messages
1,450
Honestly can’t see an individual buying us. Who has £2bn laying around to invest in a long term project very few. Will be a big corporation imo. I don’t think levy would sell to some leveraged cowboy like the Glazers. I think he’ll only sell to someone that has the funds in full.
Bezos or the Google guys. But are they interested? They don't seem keen in sport.

Just avoid the hedge fund bros at all cost. They are the worst.
 
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