ENIC...

Gb160

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It isn’t in the far off future, we are in January and season ticket renewals will occur in May. I’m happy to take the Pepsi challenge.
At that point then you can start posting it as fact and I won't dispute it (if it occurs), until then you're just guessing.
 

cider spurs

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So what you sayin'

This would be the wrong time to ask for a couple of quid to get a cheeseburger.
 

whitestreak

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I guess if you are really interested you start with this
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00164062/filing-history?page=2
check where the company became UNLIMITED or go to link doc(24) Nov 1 2007
Which means NO Limited liability....

Where in the loan docs do you see the Tavistock guarantee ? They reference a charge against the ground and all revenue streams but no guarantee I can see. I assume you are referring to the info at Companies House ?

It does appear ENIC have provided a £50m credit facility, which if it is subordinated to the bank financing so it would appear that they are in the hook for this but no more, although there is nothing in the public domain I can see to suggest it is subordinated.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-spurs-loans/tottenham-hotspur-nets-400-million-stadium-loan-idUKKBN18R24X
There is a loads in the public domain but you have to work at it...Reuters is highly superficial...go to the source...Plough through the annual accounts and charging docs and you will find 90%
 

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am_yisrael_chai

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I guess if you are really interested you start with this
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00164062/filing-history?page=2
check where the company became UNLIMITED or go to link doc(24) Nov 1 2007
Which means NO Limited liability....



There is a loads in the public domain but you have to work at it...Reuters is highly superficial...go to the source...Plough through the annual accounts and charging docs and you will find 90%
I’ve read all 115 pages of the charge document, but I don’t think we should bore everyone. How about you pm me and we continue this.
 

Gb160

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I’ve read all 115 pages of the charge document, but I don’t think we should bore everyone. How about you pm me and we continue this.
It's not boring anyone, I'm interested to know if you're peddling more myths as fact.
Especially as you called the original post 'the biggest load of nonsense ever posted on SC'
 

whitestreak

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there is a big clue in the unlimited status...by definition the Shareholders are fullly liable for the company's debts, and for belt (braces which banks always demand), they got Guarantees from Tavistock which are not filed at companies house.
For that you need to search the Bahamas and BVI registry (why I said you got 90% from companies house uk)
guarantees may not always be filed. Depends on confidentiality, jurisdiction and relevant law.
 

am_yisrael_chai

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It's not boring anyone, I'm interested to know if you're peddling more myths as fact.
Especially as you called the original post 'the biggest load of nonsense ever posted on SC'
Ok I’m happy to keep going.

I’ve read the public documents, there is no reference to a guarantee from Tavistock. The loan is secured against the assets of THFC not ENIC so the limited/unlimited status of ENIC is irrelevant. I stand by everything I said in my post. If someone wants to provide the evidence of a Tavistock guarantee on the syndicated loan I will be happy to admit my error.
 

am_yisrael_chai

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there is a big clue in the unlimited status...by definition the Shareholders are fullly liable for the company's debts, and for belt (braces which banks always demand), they got Guarantees from Tavistock which are not filed at companies house.
For that you need to search the Bahamas and BVI registry (why I said you got 90% from companies house uk)
guarantees may not always be filed. Depends on confidentiality, jurisdiction and relevant law.
the borrower is THFC not ENIC and THFC is a limited company, the status of its owners is therefore irrelevant. If you’ve found evidence in Bahamas / BVI just post it here.
 

whitestreak

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the borrower is THFC not ENIC and THFC is a limited company, the status of its owners is therefore irrelevant. If you’ve found evidence in Bahamas / BVI just post it here.
Why? I do not know you! do your own digging!
How many times has Joe in his 83+ years, let a company go bust...the answer is never!
Bear Sterns and Leemans cost him a packet...he took the hit.
 

spids

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ENIC / Levy / Lewis have not invested a Billion pounds in the club. The funding for the stadium is financed by loan deals, and transfer spend is typically NET zero. However, I like the fact we’re run very soundly, have great foundations for the future, and would hate to have the Glazers, an Abramovich, or an oil state instead.
 

am_yisrael_chai

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Why? I do not know you! do your own digging!
How many times has Joe in his 83+ years, let a company go bust...the answer is never!
Bear Sterns and Leemans cost him a packet...he took the hit.
Sorry but what are you talking about, you made an assertion and suggested to have evidence to support it so provide that evidence.

As to Joe Lewis investing in Bear Stearns and Lehman they were both equity investments and I hate to break it to you but he allowed both to go to bust and just for the pedants out there Bear was taken over by JP Morgan but with the equity wiped out.
 
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Archibald&Crooks

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Don't get me wrong, I doubt Levy will be doing a BOGOF on season tickets at the new gaff, but he keeps posting opinion as fact on this subject without backing any of it up.
That's working both ways. People can look stuff up all they like, provide link and counter link, but it's all guesswork based on the few facts available, guesses made by people with absolutely no idea of the complicated machinations of high finance at that level, so when people post a load of this stuff backing Levy or slagging it, it all needs taking with the biggest of pinches of salt.

It's all a waste of time. But as I said, people will think they know the ins and outs. They don't. And without the exact terms, clauses and stuff allied to a superior grasp of such things (Like Levy has) they never will. Guesswork. Guesswork on a grand scale.

But fun to watch :D
 
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That's working both ways. People can look stuff up all they like, provide link and counter link, but it's all guesswork based on the few facts available, guesses made by people with absolutely no idea of the complicated machinations of high finance at that level, so when people post a load of this stuff backing Levy or slagging it, it all needs taking with the biggest of pinches of salt.

It's all a waste of time. But as I said, people will think they know the ins and outs. They don't. And without the exact terms, clauses and stuff allied to a superior grasp of such things (Like Levy has) they never will. Guesswork. Guesswork on a grand scale.

But fun to watch :D
You are Levy, arent you?
 

Gb160

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That's working both ways. People can look stuff up all they like, provide link and counter link, but it's all guesswork based on the few facts available, guesses made by people with absolutely no idea of the complicated machinations of high finance at that level, so when people post a load of this stuff backing Levy or slagging it, it all needs taking with the biggest of pinches of salt.

It's all a waste of time. But as I said, people will think they know the ins and outs. They don't. And without the exact terms, clauses and stuff allied to a superior grasp of such things (Like Levy has) they never will. Guesswork. Guesswork on a grand scale.

But fun to watch :D
Yeah you're right, but as ignoramuses all we can use to really judge them (Enic) on is the state of the club, and year by year we appear to be getting stronger (not counting our current league position;))...we're barely recognisable as a club compared to the state we were in when they took over, both on and off the field.
Yet still to some they're seen as this source of evil who's holding us back that they want rid of.
People are entitled to their own opinions but that one's baffling to me.
 

davidmatzdorf

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I’m really sorry but this is some of the biggest load of nonsense ever posted on SC...
Sorry but what are you talking about...
Can you please stop posting "Sorry but" before you say something contentious? You're not sorry and it's an extremely passive-aggressive verbal tic, not to mention annoying. If you don't intend to apologise, don't say "sorry", especially if you're then going to get into someone's face.

...Similar to the Glazers at Man U, they at this point have net taken out money from the club but own it 100%...
Nothing remotely like the Glazers. The Glazers leveraged the club and lumbered it with a pile of debt to finance their own takeover, which was pretty outrageous. ENIC did nothing at all like that. The debt they have incurred was not to acquire the club, it was to invest in it and thus increase its capital value.

the borrower is THFC not ENIC and THFC is a limited company...
As I understand it, this bit is correct.
 

spud

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By the time our stadium is complete, ENIC will have invested approx a Billion pounds in Spurs.

Ah people can say they have not put the money in ......the banks have....The thing is have, in the same way that when you buy house, you get a mortgage.
The first sentence is palpable nonsense, and the second sentence explains why.

The club has obviously advanced, in business terms, under Enic's ownership - due in particular to the stewardship of Daniel Levy. Since a good manager was finally appointed in 2014 great strides have also been made on the pitch. Long may both continue.

We are fortunate in having astute, apparently stable, ownership and Levy and Enic deserve great credit for what has been achieved; but to laud them as the great financial benefactors is somewhat naive. Their investment is significantly less than you suggest and when they do eventually sell then the return on that investment will be immense. I don't begrudge it as they will have earned it, but they're not Santa and it's silly to postulate that they are.
 

am_yisrael_chai

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Can you please stop posting "Sorry but" before you say something contentious? You're not sorry and it's an extremely passive-aggressive verbal tic, not to mention annoying. If you don't intend to apologise, don't say "sorry", especially if you're then going to get into someone's face.



Nothing remotely like the Glazers. The Glazers leveraged the club and lumbered it with a pile of debt to finance their own takeover, which was pretty outrageous. ENIC did nothing at all like that. The debt they have incurred was not to acquire the club, it was to invest in it and thus increase its capital value.



As I understand it, this bit is correct.
It may surprise you to know that I didn’t intend to be “in anyone’s face” and in fact apologised to @whitestreak for my tone in a pm to him before your post. So I may have got it wrong but it was a genuine attempt to stay civil. Call me a ridiculous optimist but I’d like to think we can differ on here whilst being civil. We are all Spurs fans after all. Peace and blessings. (n)
 

lukespurs7

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By the time our stadium is complete, ENIC will have invested approx a Billion pounds in Spurs.

Ah people can say they have not put the money in ......the banks have....The thing is have, in the same way that when you buy house, you get a mortgage.



You don't say well I bought my house for £500k ...and the bank put up 400k and I put up100k, ........they own my house.

you own your house the bank have lent against it.



The difference is that if push came to shove and things went wrong they have the money to pay back the banks!



Assuming the figure of £800m is correct for the Stadium complex and £100m for the training ground, then the expenditure is there for all to see.



Some supporters moan about "how tight our owners are" because they do not get x or Y player in the window.



No one outside a select few in the club/enic really knows that much about our transfer business, particular on deals that fall through or why?

Did we pass on a player for what reason? Was it Levy? Was it Poch? Was it the players parents or agent ? was the agent on a "bung" elsewhere etc.

To say we lack ambition after finishing 2nd in the table last season and 3rd the year before is somewhat unfair as we enter the last 16 of the CL.



I do not think that we are run by a bunch of idiots, so if its obvious to me that they need success on the pitch to protect their £billion investment,

it is obvious to them!



Nottingham Forest won 2 CL titles, Where are they today, Before them Blackpool and Preston North End were among the biggest clubs in the UK.

Football is a cyclical business, you have to build a sustainable base



I actually do not know of another club/owner that has ever spent as much money as us! So much for lack of ambition! Poch can see this which is why he is going nowhere , and possibly Harry too.

ENIC has a simple ambition ..........to build Spurs into the biggest club in the UK and then Europe.



The other bug bear of mine is how ENIC were always said to be in it for the short term, Is this the same ENIC, who are now the longest serving owners of a team in the EPL?



They want to build a sustainable model, and they are about 6 months away from completing on the first stage of it.

They merely are choosing to do it a different way, having stuck a billion in, they can! They have a lot more riding on it than anyone else.

So who owns the club? Them or the fans. It is also not just the fans, who pay money but sponsors and or NFL teams/fans etc...

The fans are the customer of the club, not the owner. Like any other business.

And they own that business not you or I. Therefore all the assets belong to them, subject to the bank, and the tax man. Not to us fans.

Obviously like with any business, the need to keep the customer happy, to continue sales, but don't confuse that with ownership.

Spurs today must be worth close to £1.5bn....in fact a friend of mine last july was with a delegation of Chinese buyers trying to buy Woolwich, and Kroenke turned down £2BN, saying it is not enough, this after making them prove the funds.

So forget about 120m...to take it to a ridiculous extreme ...its like saying £1000 stake in apple in 1982 is still worth 1000 not a billion or more.

Obviously the value is what anyone will pay...

They are far from perfect, but I for one, actually would not swap them for anyone else.
Nice positive spin. Also the people saying they’re just investing to get price up then sell, would they really spend 15 years or more to do that and if so why? Joe Lewis is 80 and Levy what 50-60 mabye, if the profit is for them what is the point?

I genuinely want to believe that they’re doing this for the good of the club and whatever way you look at it a new £800 mil 61,000 stadium and best training ground in Europe are two things which will provide the club with a massive opportunity to improve on the pitch.

‘On the pitch’ Levy has got it a bit wrong at times with manages and DOF’s and also transfers but who hasn’t? Man.U got it wrong with Moyes and Van Gaal and under Fergie they had plenty of transfers that didn’t work out, football is not an exact science.

The only thing I’m dissapponted about is that somehow over the last 20 years a club like tottenham has only won 2 trophies, 2 carling cups and hasn’t won the fa cup in 26 years! For whatever reason that is our biggest failing and 1 CC in Levy’s 15 Years is poor BUT you can’t say we haven’t been improving year on year, last year we had our highest finish in the PL and points total and off the pitch we are leveling the game and it’s only natural that if our average league position has gone from say 12th-8th to 3/4th let’s say, then we will be consistently much closer to winning trophies and titles in the years to come.

COYS
 
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