ENIC...

gaffers

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If people aren't working then it makes sense for them to be furloughed. This applies to all industry, football is no different.

Sick of the faux outrage all of the time by people determined to turn football into a fucking soap opera.
Football is like no other industry. Unless you include drug cartels.

Faux off.
 

PeeEyeEmPee

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Of course I do. That's why I used the word "breaks" because that's what they are. I'm taking those options myself and am aware of how they are set to work... the mortgage and council tax side at least.

What the system is geared up to do is to allow people time to adjust to their new reality. Gary the Spurs Lodge chef is not getting 3 months for free but he is getting 3 months to save up his 80% pay packet and be as financially prepared as he can come July. And when July comes he gets to spread the money he hasn't paid off his mortgage across the lifetime of his mortgage (assuming he has one). It's a pretty sweet deal.

During those 3 months Gary does not have to pay to travel to work. He doesn't even have to work. He doesn't have to spend much money at all. If he chooses to spend his 80% pay on Amazon stuff that's his choice. But if he chooses to save his 80% pay he will be set well come the Summer. And this is key - people are being given a chance to sort themselves out.

The backdrop is that the club has lots of money so it seems ridiculous to be putting these workers onto the gov scheme. But the club only has lots of money because it has massive revenues. If those revenues are slashed then we no longer have lots of money... not over the long term anyway.

This really isn't a complicated situation. 80% pay is better than 0% pay. And actually 80% on 30% outgoings is far better than 100% pay on 100% outgoings. What is most important of all is certainty, and that is what these staff have. Their jobs are as secure as they can possibly be and they know how much money is coming in the door.

We really don't know how this will play out so let's just relax and take care of ourselves and our neighbours. Let's at least get to the end of next week and see where things stand in terms of the general lockdown and then the world of football. My guess is that further football delays will be announced this weekend and that will be enough of a spur for the players to make a blanket donation next week which will resolve much of this.
I really don’t understand your working out.
Exactly. They could of sacked them all!
Or they could’ve just continued to pay them as normal
 

Lighty64

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Turning this around isn't how this works. You're the one who said I'd missed all the many other arguments as to why Spurs shouldn't be doing what they're doing aside from the morality argument - the burden of proof to supply that evidence is on you, I'm afraid.

Whataboutery and strawmanning isn't an answer to that question. You've not given me any reason why Spurs shouldn't be doing what they're doing.
what @MK Yid doesn't understand is that not every club has 550 nonplaying staff, what he also misses the point is not every club has a debt of 635m, and not every club are going to be hit with losses of 150m+
 

Lighty64

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what @MK Yid doesn't understand is that not every club has 550 nonplaying staff, what he also misses the point is not every club has a debt of 635m, and not every club are going to be hit with losses of 150m+
@shelfboy68 I take it the spam is because I spammed you, or can you explain how the truth is spam or is it because it just doesn't fit your agenda and that every person should hate Levy because we only have 1 trophy in 19 yrs
 

MK Yid

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what @MK Yid doesn't understand is that not every club has 550 nonplaying staff, what he also misses the point is not every club has a debt of 635m, and not every club are going to be hit with losses of 150m+
Firstly I thought you had me on ignore.
But secondly. No, not every club has staff of 550 non-playing staff, in fact some that make far less profits than us, have a lot more than that, and are not reducing their wages. Man Utd had 836 non-playing staff in 2019 for example.
Not every club has a debt of 635m, but what you don't seem to understand is that is secured long term, over 23 years, we are not paying it all off next week. If this virus is still going on in a years time then yes that is an issue, and we would either have to renegotiate terms or do a rights issue. Debt per se is not a bad thing, majority of business have debt as interest rates are cheaper than usual return you get on using your own working capital as you can expand quicker. Usual WACC (Weighted Average Cost of Capital) is typically in range of 6 to 10%, Interest rates have never been lower.
Going to be hit with losses of 150m+, what the hell are you talking about.
Our wages to turnover are by far the lowest in the League, we will be one of the least affected by this of all the teams in the League. The extra revenue made already will more than cover the interest and capital repayment costs on the debt accumulated so far. Our wage bill is nearer Everton levels than any of the bigger 5. We have benefitted from new stadium all season. (you know the thing you have been using as an excuse for underperforming and not buying players for a few years, despite us posting record profits). At this stage I am still expecting season to finish, be that in August, and if that is the case, no/minimal refund of the TV contract, no/minimal sponsorship repayments, but having to refund season ticket holders for games played behind closed doors, and in that scenario would still expect us to be posting profits in the 2020/21 accounts.
Our financial position is better than any other club in the country, and we are in much better position to ride this out compared to anyone bar maybe Chelsea, Liverpool and the 2 Manchester clubs, (2 due to their massive infrastructure, 2 due to benefactors) but unlike any other club in league we have taken the steps to fully cut non-playing staff costs from our overheads before tackling the major issue, the high earners at the club.

Mentioned to you on many occasions, stay away from finance, it is not a subject you should be expressing any views on if I am honest.
 
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Lighty64

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The excuses being made for Levy and the club in this thread are appaling. If Arsenal or West Ham did what we did, everyone would rightfully have a go at them.

I'm not anti-Levy like a lot of people on here but I've lost a lot of respect for him during all this.

We played our last game on March 10th. Less than a month later, we've furloughed our staff and cut pay. Does anyone in here really think it would've affected the financial stability of the club if staff were paid their full wages that at the beginning of the month, everyone thought would be paid as normal? The optics is terrible and it looks like Levy could not wait to save a few pennies. The club just announced a 68m profit. The club has 123m in the bank. We could've paid staff up until April in full and reviewed the situation from there.

It's the swiftness that has really bothered me. If this situation goes on for months - as it almost certainly will - I'm sure that a lot of PL clubs will start to feel the pinch. But to run to the government when the Club could easily afford to pay workers in full for a month or two at least is really poor taste. It may have been a correct business decision, but it's a morally bankrupt decision. It's disappointing to see so many people defending this. Us and Newcastle are the only clubs to cut staff salaries. Mike Ashley is a charlatan who I couldn't think any lesser of, Daniel Levy I thought was better than this.
1, how many nonplaying staff do the other clubs have, especially West Ham who everything to do with the London Stadium is paid by the tax payer

2, the staff where put on furlough after the 1st, so would of been paid in full for March

3, the 68m profit was from last season, we have since spent 161m on players plus increased wages

4, please tell me how you know the club has 123m in the bank

5, perhaps due to our debts we have had to take action early than hoped

6, why pay for another 2-3 months, when you can take action now and not suffer the extra losses

someone posted we had received the TV money in February, if football doesn't return that will be paid back, we won't receive any money for our participation in the league, we won't be paid anything from UEFA, we can't hold any concerts, boxing or any other incoming revenue, but will still have to pay the players 100% until they commit to a reduction, all sponsors will withhold money or request a refund. no 1 will be renewing ST until they have received a quarter refund or won't renew full stop, and that will also include the premium/corporate members.
 

nailsy

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I wonder if the same people that are desperate for these workers to get this money will be the same people happy that we miss out on a player because we might not have that couple of million in the bank to get the deal over the line. Let’s wait and see. Will be interesting to note.
Personally I couldn't give a shit if we miss out on a player or two because of this. I do give a shit about whether we'll still have a football club in a years time though.

Firstly I thought you had me on ignore.
But secondly. No, not every club has staff of 550 non-playing staff, in fact some that make far less profits than us, have a lot more than that, and are not reducing their wages
Not every club has a debt of 635m, but what you don't seem to understand is that is long term, over 23 years, we are not patying it all off next week.
Going to be hit with losses of 150m, what the hell are you talking about.
Our wages to turnover are by far the lowest in the League, we will be one of the least affected by this of all the teams in the League. Our wage bill is nearer Everton levels than any of the bigger 5. We have benefitted from new stadium all season.

Mentioned to you on many occasions, stay away from finance, it is not a sunject you should be expressing any views on if I am honest.
No, but some of the stadium debt was paid off using upfront payments from sponsors who are no longer receiving the product that they've paid for. Who knows what sort of financial implications that will have?

I think whether we agree with what Levy is doing or not many people on here will agree that this is the worst case scenario that could've happened after the stadium build.
 

arnoldlayne

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On a lighter note


Worth reading although long(ish)

Working as a medic in the NHS and seeing what is happening on the ground and the lack of personal protection, with patients dying or critically ill and reports of doctors and nurses, and other staff dying puts things into perspective.

Finding some of the most important and undersung staff have been cut to the bone over the last decade and often paid minimum wage. Yet these are amongst the most important to keep the service running - domestics & cleaners, washroom, sterile services, medical physics, secretaries, healthcare assistants, IT staff, pharmacy, porters, post-room, parking attendants, drivers, etc. All terrified but carrying on. But still, the lowest paid - and all in the front line and at high risk.

What Levy (and the buck stops with him and him alone) has done may well have been the pragmatic thing to do but morally it stinks and will have profound long term repercussions. What should have happened was the directors all announcing they were giving up their pay OR they were donating all their salaries to essential services for the next 3 months, and Mourinho & Co cajoled into doing the same. They should have announced they want their highest-paid players to do the same and pushed the PFA publically to speed this up.

We are now seen as the bad guys regardless of whether this was pragmatically correct and it will be remembered long term by everybody. And they will dine out on it for a long time. The arguments about a business surviving are nonsense as most PL football clubs highest expense is the first team players and the manager/directors. In addition, they are saving a fortune in bonuses and appearance money as well as some of the day to day expenses to run the football club eg paying for food and drink.

Saving a couple of million out of a total budget of half a billion is pitiful - it smacks of the same logic as our NHS middle managers who need to leave a mark somehow - so they stopped diaries, calendars, pens, water fountains, coffee, milk, etc - and saved a few thousand. Presenting it as a tremendous victory and a mark of their supreme skills before they leave to destroy another NHS team elsewhere.

Levy is no better - and with his Cambridge graduate brain the size of a planet - should have known better. He is tarnished forever and as a result, so is our club.

In these extraordinary times, we should be doing our bit rather than habitually penny pinching.
 

Lighty64

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Firstly I thought you had me on ignore.
But secondly. No, not every club has staff of 550 non-playing staff, in fact some that make far less profits than us, have a lot more than that, and are not reducing their wages
Not every club has a debt of 635m, but what you don't seem to understand is that is secured long term, over 23 years, we are not paying it all off next week. If this virus is still going on in a years time then yes that is an issue, and we would either have to renegotiate terms or do a rights issue.
Going to be hit with losses of 150m, what the hell are you talking about.
Our wages to turnover are by far the lowest in the League, we will be one of the least affected by this of all the teams in the League. Our wage bill is nearer Everton levels than any of the bigger 5. We have benefitted from new stadium all season. (you know the thing you have been using as an excuse for underperforming and not buying players for a few years). At this stage I am still expecting season to finish, be that in August, and if that is the case, so no refund of the TV contract, would still expect us to be posting profits in the 2020/21 accounts.
Our financial position is better than any other club in the country, and we are in much better position to ride this out compared to anyone bar maybe Chelsea, Liverpool and the 2 Manchester clubs, but unlike any other club in league we have taken the steps to cut non-playing staff costs from our overheads before tackling the major issue, the high earners at the club.

Mentioned to you on many occasions, stay away from finance, it is not a sunject you should be expressing any views on if I am honest.
I have got you on ignore but after 3 pages of seeing people reply to you, I had to use the option of viewing it to see what ANTI-LEVY CRAP you were spouting again.

due to having the 2nd largest league stadium, and the 1 with the most corporate members, and more bars and food joints please tell me with proof who has more nonplaying staff.

I know the stadium doesn't have to be paid off tomorrow, but the 20m+ for this season will, or does that count for mortgage relief

ok 150m

1, TV over 40m will be paid back if the season is voided
2, PL won't be paying clubs if voided
3, UEFA won't be paying clubs if voided, including TV money
4, concert & boxing postponed
5, sponsors will want refunds
6, 5 matches in lost revenue

I haven't used it as an excuse for underperforming down to us, not spending (look in a mirror), and know it would affect spending or get into a lot more debt without a single guarantee of even an extra trophy.

you might be expecting it to finish, but I wouldn't guarantee if we didn't see football for the whole of 2020, and as a business, you have to look forwards. until there's a definite return date I don't expect anything.

we as a club can't touch the player's wages, it would be a breach of contract, that is why it is going down the route it is at the moment. if the players came out like Barca, Juve, and the German clubs and did it on their own backs this might of never got this far.

all this is, is another stick for you to bash ENIC/Levy and what for the hope that someone MIGHT come in after spending 2b to buy and then like City and Chelsea spend over another billion to buy success. with FFP in place that will never happen, and if I had enough money and life to bet you with I would bet you.

edit: you also told me I don't know how to use grammar, so to help myself I installed Grammarly, and your post is littered with GRAMMAR ERRORS
 

BringBack_leGin

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it’s a shame that people are using issues as serious as coronavirus, financial crisis and employment uncertainty as an excuse to drag this into yet another ‘I hate Enic’ v ‘I love Enic’ debate.

I would love to see any of you trying to manage the responsibilities he currently has to navigate.
 

Lighty64

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it’s a shame that people are using issues as serious as coronavirus, financial crisis and employment uncertainty as an excuse to drag this into yet another ‘I hate Enic’ v ‘I love Enic’ debate.

I would love to see any of you trying to manage the responsibilities he currently has to navigate.
If the Levy haters had been in his shoes this club would be well over a billion in debt, 50m here 60m there extra for those 10 seasons and no guarantee we would have done any better, but at least they could have used the "at least we are trying to win a CoC".
 

Finchyid

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it’s a shame that people are using issues as serious as coronavirus, financial crisis and employment uncertainty as an excuse to drag this into yet another ‘I hate Enic’ v ‘I love Enic’ debate.

I would love to see any of you trying to manage the responsibilities he currently has to navigate.
Spot on..this club is a huge business, and its being run very well and not bank rolled
 

JCRD

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When am I going to get my money back for my ST? I mean if there is no football for six months - do they keep my money until then? Id like to think of it as give me my damn money then when football resumes ill give you the money for the five home games.

But i forgot, no staff is available to process these payments...
 

SpunkyBackpack

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On a lighter note

If that is a genuine conversation between two actual real-life human beings and not one person badly writing an imagined conversation in his head for money i will eat my legs, both of them. Not that I'd want to cast aspersions on the integrity of www.football365.com and... Johnny Nic of course.

 

arnoldlayne

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I have got you on ignore but after 3 pages of seeing people reply to you, I had to use the option of viewing it to see what ANTI-LEVY CRAP you were spouting again.

due to having the 2nd largest league stadium, and the 1 with the most corporate members, and more bars and food joints please tell me with proof who has more nonplaying staff.

I know the stadium doesn't have to be paid off tomorrow, but the 20m+ for this season will, or does that count for mortgage relief

ok 150m

1, TV over 40m will be paid back if the season is voided
2, PL won't be paying clubs if voided
3, UEFA won't be paying clubs if voided, including TV money
4, concert & boxing postponed
5, sponsors will want refunds
6, 5 matches in lost revenue

I haven't used it as an excuse for underperforming down to us, not spending (look in a mirror), and know it would affect spending or get into a lot more debt without a single guarantee of even an extra trophy.

you might be expecting it to finish, but I wouldn't guarantee if we didn't see football for the whole of 2020, and as a business, you have to look forwards. until there's a definite return date I don't expect anything.

we as a club can't touch the player's wages, it would be a breach of contract, that is why it is going down the route it is at the moment. if the players came out like Barca, Juve, and the German clubs and did it on their own backs this might of never got this far.

all this is, is another stick for you to bash ENIC/Levy and what for the hope that someone MIGHT come in after spending 2b to buy and then like City and Chelsea spend over another billion to buy success. with FFP in place that will never happen, and if I had enough money and life to bet you with I would bet you.

edit: you also told me I don't know how to use grammar, so to help myself I installed Grammarly, and your post is littered with GRAMMAR ERRORS
Think you may find the phrase is "grammatical errors" (but what do I know)

At this moment the last thing I care about is whether the club survives or not or who they buy - more whether the pandemic is going to kill somebody I know and hoping I don't get it

So when people on low salaries, in unstable jobs, are already worried about death and then find they lose salary to boot it does upset me and a lot of others

If the PL clubs are struggling, then that is their own fault for producing a league of mediocrities, individualy paid more than my entire consultant department will earn in a lifetime

If the PL suffers and has to stop staring at it's own navel, producing a product people can afford and Sky/BT/Amazon realises how much they have overpaid after all this - that will be good
 

arnoldlayne

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If that is a genuine conversation between two actual real-life human beings and not one person badly writing an imagined conversation in his head for money i will eat my legs, both of them. Not that I'd want to cast aspersions on the integrity of www.football365.com of course.

You're suggesting John Nicholson is lying? Interesting
 
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