BBLG, I think your point is fair enough. But it's noticeable that your analysis doesn't cover his post-United years.
Written off by England - recovered and then some
Written off by Capello/Madrid - made them look silly and rose to be their most crucial player
Written off in the US - came back and was a major driving factor in his team reaching the 'Grand Final Shootout SuperDraw' (or whatever)
Now at Milan - Doing not bad for an old bloke
Time and again he has disproved the doubters. To look at, he doesn't seem to be worthy of the very highest accolades but his career speaks for itself, especially when compared to other comparable icons such as George Best, Fat Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, etc.
Fuck me you are the rez of Spurs Chat. Two (hungover) points.
1. Le Tiss was a striker so of course he scored more goals.
2. Posh isn't fit.
I've always preferred Scholes.
What, that wasn't the question?! :wink:
Gotta agree and disagree with BBLG. First, and most important, trannies are great in the sack, so Fat Ronaldo is something of a sexual conossieur i'd say. (Well, he's brazilian after all so it figures.)
I too reckon Anderton was of a similar ability to Beckham in terms of passing/shooting etc. Unfortunately injury and having the genetic makeup to keep your body going is a big factor in pro sport and thus he goes by the wayside in real terms.
In terms of this 'being an entertainer' thing..hmmm...Beckham was never really a player who the whole crowd would be that excited by when they got the ball (like a Gazza)...but as already mentioned he's kind of an economical player, a minimalist in style if you will. The exquisite pass or cross is really all he's got (plus good shooting, although he never really did score enough). I used to think he was overrated because he rarely beat players. But these days..i am more of the opinion that yeah, he rarely beat players by dribbling...But the thing is - he didn't need to.
I'm also reminded of the George Best quote 'he's half a great player'..'He (Beckham) cannot kick with his left foot, he cannot head a ball, he cannot tackle and he doesn't score many goals. Apart from that he's all right.'
Maybe a tad harsh from George but he is being honest, he just had very high standards.
But on the other hand Beckham has got to go down as one of the best crossers there has ever been..
In 1999 United would certainly not have won the treble without him..but that can also be said of half a dozen United players that year.
As far as his England career is concerned..it's a mixed bag. Good in 98 but with a cockup at the end. Good in Euro 2000. Great in 2001 to get to the world cup. But should not really have featured in the 2002 tournament..he simply wasn't match fit and made another fuck up against Brazil. Pretty poor in Euro 2004. Not great in 2006, but i suppose still worth having in there for set pieces.
It is a conundrum...
I personally reckon this 'world class' term is bandied about far too readily...It should be reserved for (current players) of the likes of Messi, Iniesta, Ronaldo, Xavi, Rooney. It should really be an elite term but isn't. I'd say Beckham qualified in 1999 because in real terms his contribution was exceptional in that year. But i don't think he really was for many other years.
But i like the guy, he's a model professional and all round good bloke. It's just that i think there have been a number of better english players, and lots of better foreign players.
1) Le Tiss was a midfielder. Not sure where you get the Le Tiss was a striker thing from. Anyway, my point wasn't "Le Tiss scored more goals so he is better", my point was "Le Tiss goal record from midfield would have earnt him far more recognition where he at a fashionable club and not ugly as sin".
2) Fine, conceived by the masses to be fit.
Well I think he was a number ten, played just behind a striker- he was hardly a midfielder with other duties like Beckham was. Anyway the comparison is rather odd and doesn't prove much.
Number two was meant in jest.
And it's not just his on field antics that come into play.
Le Tiss was a striker.
portugal 3-2 was first group game m8, i agree aswell
Great post on the last page, Bringers. Always a pleasure to be debated with in a constructive way. I think you are too easily dismissive of Beckham's career achievements, but that's natural when you're defending a point. I really rate the ability to cope mentally with the brickbats hurled his way and how he has come through it.
This is a guy who was battered by fans after 1998. Really battered. It's a distant memory now because of his strength of character and his tenacity as a player. Not to mention his talent.
He went to grounds where fans were shouting that they hoped his newborn son got cancer and died. He was the original victim of crowds in their tens of thousands verbally abusing his wife and making outrageous slurs against her (they were good fun, though and won't pretend I didn't indulge... in the songs, obviously). Less funny was the Euros quarter final where we lost 3-2 to Portugal and the England 'fans' abused him the whole game. He set up both goals. :|
I think he did much better at Madrid than you give him credit for. He wasn't in many respects a Madrid player, a Zidane or a Figo or whoever. But he managed, where so, so many others failed, to convince. And convince at a club where winning a regular spot in the starting line-up is like being inducted into the Hall of Fame at most clubs. He did fantastically.
Galaxy obviously are bad. And the league something of a joke. But his spat with Donovan was huge and the situation in LA was very sticky. Almost any other footballer would have walked away but Beckham went back and didn't just silence the doubters (more hideous abuse from moronic American fans, well documented) but got the whole team onside and won over many of these supporters on the way to their grand final.
Summing all the above up - the technical and ability side we could argue for days but that can't be the only way to judge if a player is 'great'; such a generic term needs wide parameters - you have to concede Beckham is a leader. Both by example and as a managerial manner. He is there for those around him and you never hear anyone to have met him say anything other than what a magnificent ambassador he is.
He has led England - one of the very best football nations in the world - 59 times, more than Bobby Charlton, Gary Lineker, Tony Adams, Kevin Keegan. Only Moore, Robson and Wright have done it more often.
If World Class doesn't mean that you stand alongside those names on merit then it's a hell of a tough benchmark we're setting here.
Sorry, you're quite right. Although you have just caused me to recall that horrendous 'tackle' from Phil Neville prior to their third goal, so I will have to curse you 'til all eternity now. :wink: