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Club Statement – Update on alleged racism incident at Chelsea match

mawspurs

Staff
Jun 29, 2003
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So are SKy et al reporting that we've made a statement, or have they just closed their interest in this situation as there's no sensational news to be had out of the enquiries made?

It was on BBC news yesterday.
 

davidmatzdorf

Front Page Gadfly
Jun 7, 2004
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The obsession with "false rape claims" results from a malicious myth. The facts are that a minuscule percentage of sexual assault claims are found to be false, whereas a large majority of them are not prosecuted because the standard of proof is unachievable.

What happens - and what @FinnYid has swallowed wholesale - is that there is a veritable industry devoted to publicising every single allegation of a false claim and blowing it up into a huge paranoid story, whereas the thousands and thousands of genuine sexual assaults and rapes that are never even formally reported go unmentioned.

Every proper attempt to measure this has revealed the same thing: false allegations of rape are NOT A THING. They are a misdirection, an invention devised to distract attention from the pervasive culture of sexual assault and lack of consent in our culture.

I invite anyone to look up rape claims online, at random. I guarantee you that every detailed story, almost without exception, will contain some kind of reference to other false allegations of rape, even if there is no connection whatsoever with the case being discussed. It is as if the media have a policy of never mentioning rape without mentioning false allegations. The intention is to create a false climate of doubt.

People do not make false allegations of rape. This is a valid generalisation. The (say) five or ten exceptions that exist each year are luridly reported in detail, every one, while the millions (literally) of genuine allegations are discounted, doubted, ignored and met with silence.

I'd love to see just one discussion of no-consent sex in forums like this, without someone reflexively starting to bang on about false allegations. Just once, for a change.
 
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FinnYid

Well-Known Member
Jul 18, 2006
4,529
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The obsession with "false rape claims" results from a malicious myth. The facts are that a minuscule percentage of sexual assault claims are found to be false, whereas a large majority of them are not prosecuted because the standard of proof is unachievable.

What happens - and what @FinnYid has swallowed wholesale - is that there is a veritable industry devoted to publicising every single allegation of a false claim and blowing it up into a huge paranoid story, whereas the thousands and thousands of genuine sexual assaults and rapes that are never even formally reported go unmentioned.

Of course there are loads and loads of rapes and assaults that go unreported, everyone knows this and wether you take different estimates and researches on fake allegantions on face value or not is not relevant. It doesn't matter wether they consist 10%, 1%, 0,1% of cases, presumption of innocence is basis of our juridicial system as is burden of proof. Anyone taking the other route with burning forks ought to watch Danish film The Hunt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hunt_(2012_film)) and consider his actions. Wether he is actually the villain here.

Every proper attempt to measure this has revealed the same thing: false allegations of rape are NOT A THING. They are a misdirection, an invention devised to distract attention from the pervasive culture of sexual assault and lack of consent in our culture.

If you are claiming with NOT A THING that they never happen, you are plainly as wrong as Flat Earth Society. Wether they are as usual as claimed by some sources is again completely irrelevant on this context. There shouldn't be a single one innocent punished just because 90% or 99% or 99,9% of claims are not false.

People do not make false allegations of rape. This is a valid generalisation. The (say) five or ten exceptions that exist each year are luridly reported in detail, every one, while the millions (literally) of genuine allegations are discounted, doubted, ignored and met with silence.

You say people don't make false allegations, yet you admit that there are exceptions. And where there is even a single exception, you just can't judge anyone on sole claim. We have a juridicial system to do the judgement.

Again with all the CCTV, TV cameras, hostes of stewardes, camera phones and so on and yet police can't find a thing, If someone still insists there were monkey noises, well burden of proof is pretty heavy on one making the claims
 

davidmatzdorf

Front Page Gadfly
Jun 7, 2004
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It's just the same thing I was describing: reams and reams of excuses about the virtually nonexistent "false allegations", treating each exception as being of huge importance, after dismissing millions of genuine claims in a couple of sentences.

Despite me having a strong allegiance to the rule of law, I have come in recent years to disagree with this sentence: "There shouldn't be a single one innocent punished just because 90% or 99% or 99,9% of claims are not false."

I wouldn't mind seeing hundreds of supposedly falsely-accused rapists behind bars for a decade or two, if it redresses the balance of hundreds of years of lies and systematic evasion. Also because I'd wager that most of the "innocents" are nothing of the kind. Just good liars.
 

FinnYid

Well-Known Member
Jul 18, 2006
4,529
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Despite me having a strong allegiance to the rule of law, I have come in recent years to disagree with this sentence: "There shouldn't be a single one innocent punished just because 90% or 99% or 99,9% of claims are not false."

I wouldn't mind seeing hundreds of supposedly falsely-accused rapists behind bars for a decade or two, if it redresses the balance of hundreds of years of lies and systematic evasion. Also because I'd wager that most of the "innocents" are nothing of the kind. Just good liars.

Jesus, are you serious? Well, then I hope you are one of those innocents ending up the jail then. See wether that would change your mind on issue. BTW your stance reminds me a lot of hardcore racist claiming that such and such crimes are made by some group and extending that to make judgements on some single crime by no evidence whatsover.
 

LeSoupeKitchen

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2011
3,102
7,621
It's just the same thing I was describing: reams and reams of excuses about the virtually nonexistent "false allegations", treating each exception as being of huge importance, after dismissing millions of genuine claims in a couple of sentences.

Despite me having a strong allegiance to the rule of law, I have come in recent years to disagree with this sentence: "There shouldn't be a single one innocent punished just because 90% or 99% or 99,9% of claims are not false."

I wouldn't mind seeing hundreds of supposedly falsely-accused rapists behind bars for a decade or two, if it redresses the balance of hundreds of years of lies and systematic evasion. Also because I'd wager that most of the "innocents" are nothing of the kind. Just good liars.

I think you'd do well living in the USA where the judicial system generally requires someone to be caught and found guilty for every crime and where the prosecutors generally wager that "most of the innocents are nothing of the kind" and magically find evidence to put them away.
 

davidmatzdorf

Front Page Gadfly
Jun 7, 2004
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45,030
Jesus, are you serious? Well, then I hope you are one of those innocents ending up the jail then. See wether that would change your mind on issue...

That's the second time you've used that argument. I never change my mind on a point of principle just because I'm personally affected. Just as I vote for politicians who would put up my own taxes and institute other policies that would disadvantage me, because they are right.

BTW your stance reminds me a lot of hardcore racist claiming that such and such crimes are made by some group and extending that to make judgements on some single crime by no evidence whatsover.
That's an unworthy argument.

I pointedly never mentioned any "group" except rapists. You supplied that yourself.

There is always evidence behind any allegation of sexual assault that reaches the stage of being attacked as false. Allegations without a very high standard of evidence - millions of such allegations - never get anywhere a public accusation, never mind the courts. If it gets to court, you can bet there is evidence.

There is, in contrast, rarely any evidence of a false allegation except two kinds. 1) the complainant retracting the allegation after bullying and inappropriate questioning. 2) the accused insisting that the attack was "consensual". Neither of those constitutes evidence. They are attempts to manipulate the press and the jury, they are witness intimidation and they play into the enormous grey area that constitutes "consent" in modern culture. But they aren't evidence.

The notion that false allegations of rape are common is a lie, perpetrated by centuries of rape-culture, to create a fog of confusion and perpetuate a culture of sexual intimidation.
 

davidmatzdorf

Front Page Gadfly
Jun 7, 2004
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45,030
I think you'd do well living in the USA where the judicial system generally requires someone to be caught and found guilty for every crime [except sexual assault] and where the prosecutors generally wager that "most of the innocents are nothing of the kind" and magically find evidence to put them away.
Left there for good 47 years ago. Fuckin' hate the place ;).

P.S. FYP.
 

UbeAstard

Well-Known Member
May 31, 2005
3,354
2,413
Agree with you David Matzdorrf it seems undeniable there are many rape cases where the guilty have escaped punishment, possibly due to the doubt you say that has been created. However I cant agree with putting away someone who hasnt been proved guilty. I do think there are false/wrong rape cases though must be few.
 

FinnYid

Well-Known Member
Jul 18, 2006
4,529
4,111
That's the second time you've used that argument. I never change my mind on a point of principle just because I'm personally affected. Just as I vote for politicians who would put up my own taxes and institute other policies that would disadvantage me, because they are right.

Well if you are willing to go to jail for crimes you didn't commit to balance of hundreds of years of lies and systematic evasion it's your choice. But no civilised society excepts it's members to do so. Now you are playing sort of collective guilt card, so do you want to put Germans on concentration camps for crimes of their fathers? Sounds actually like something those fathers would have done.

That's an unworthy argument.

I pointedly never mentioned any "group" except rapists. You supplied that yourself.

Actually you did implicitly. Males. If males do most of rapes and most of accusations are true, you are willing to pass a judgement on male based on mere claim on rape. Your logic follows excatly those of hardcore racists.
 

whitesocks

The past means nothing. This is a message for life
Jan 16, 2014
4,652
5,738
Hmm, anyway...

Rudiger reported racist songs. That is what his captain said about it after the game, although he said no-one else heard it on the pitch at the time.

It was not an individual gesture or shout he was complaining about, as there are racist incidents at many games and the person is just thrown out, banned and cautioned. (As was a chelsea fan during the game itself.)
For these offences, the games are not held up. Public warnings are not issued on repeat. The games are not abandoned. But given the claim about an organised racist chant, the ref had little choice but to start the formal process.

Now, Rudiger has been proven to be somehow mistaken about his claim.

Personally I think he should be put in front of a disciplinary panel. If he says honestly he was just fed up with taking (non racial) abuse after his role in getting Son set off, it needs to be made loud and clear that these new rules are not meant for this. Give him some slack as it is a new process. But if false claims become more frequent, then absolutely players should get long bans. It is a serious matter, just like someone setting off fire alarms for no reason. (He probably tried this too - good job they are all broken.)
 

McFlash

In the corner, eating crayons.
Oct 19, 2005
12,740
45,363
It's just the same thing I was describing: reams and reams of excuses about the virtually nonexistent "false allegations", treating each exception as being of huge importance, after dismissing millions of genuine claims in a couple of sentences.

Despite me having a strong allegiance to the rule of law, I have come in recent years to disagree with this sentence: "There shouldn't be a single one innocent punished just because 90% or 99% or 99,9% of claims are not false."

I wouldn't mind seeing hundreds of supposedly falsely-accused rapists behind bars for a decade or two, if it redresses the balance of hundreds of years of lies and systematic evasion. Also because I'd wager that most of the "innocents" are nothing of the kind. Just good liars.
Jeez, I don't normally offer out wtf ratings but for you to say you'd happily see innocent people go to jail because it rights some old wrongs from history, and that they're probably guilty anyway...!?
Do you not think these people may have lives that would be totally destroyed by that?
Granted, false rape claims aren't common but some of the ones that have happened have hurt both the accused and sometimes their families, terribly.
I can't get my head round your statement at all.
 
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