Civil war amongst Spurs supporters......should they change their target?

[Nocando]

Right just done this very quickly (so havent fully checked dates etc - apologies if this is inccorect). Thanks to TopSpurs for their data.

Levy
Season Division Position Played Won
2011/2012
FA Prem 4 38 20
2010/2011
2001/2002
FA Prem 9 38 14

Average Median Mode
7----------- 7 ------5

Sugar
2000/2001
FA Prem 12 38 13
1991/1992
Division 1 15 42 15

Average Median Mode
11 --------11 ----11


Scholar
1990/1991
Division 1 11 38 11
1982/1983
Division 1 4 42 20

Average Median Mode
7 -----------6------- 3

Whale*
1981/1982
Division 1 4 42 20
1970/1971
Division 1 3 42 19

Average Median Mode
11 ---------10 -----11

Unknown
1969/1970
Division 1 11 42 17
1909/1910
Division 1 15 38 11

Average Median Mode
10 --------10 ------3

*I don't know much about Sidney Wale so the years are a bit of a guess. Nothing on the tinternet about him either.
**I've taken out any div 2 or unknown leagues to only refer to 'top flight'.
**I had to shorten the years due to the site not allowing me to post more than 2000 char. However averages are based on the total period for each owner.

Infact there's little difference between Levy & Scholar, in terms of average league position. And just highlights how bad we have been in the league generally (and this can only reaffirm how well Levy has done in that respect, considering the greater difficulty there is to crack that nut with Utd, City and Chelsea).

 

[Nocando]

I know this isn't music to the ears but I think league placing is a significant indicator of success. More so than trophies in many respects. I'm not talking about Success per se, but quantifying what leads to success as a barometer.

Let me explain that a little further. Trophies are very hit and miss statistically. Without stating the obvious too much you either win them or you don’t. You do not get a full picture of how well that club has done over the course of that season. Take 1999 we were gash in the league but won some tiny cup that a lot of teams didn’t take seriously. Had we not won the Worthington Cup that season, then it would have been seen as a complete failure.

It’s now being used as way of saying we were successful!

A league is a ranking list of sorts so you can analyse the performance of a team better over any given period. It might not suit a typical supporters arguments but I think in terms of building a picture then it is one of the best methods there is.

 

[Mackay6]

I think youre still being far too dismissive of league placing and only concentrating on trophies. is it possible to put that to one side and compare the average league position? Its also worth noting there is considerable difference in prize money the higher up you go. perhaps in an ideal world we coild compare prize money if football inflation wasn't so much of an issue

I've already done that and taken the trouble do the research and post the lge position averages in a previous reply, to your good self AFAIK.

 

[Mackay6]

Just looking at trophies won is a bit misleading and simplistic, IMO.

Years of turgid, passionless crap in the 90s, with the odd great result, vs. regularly winning the NLD, winning at Anfield and Old Trafford, beating Chelsea three times (I think) in the league at WHL, winning at the San Siro, comprehensively beating Inter at WHL, running out at the Bernabeu (although the less said about that game the better!), Bale's hat-trick against Inter, the comeback at the Emirates, the Keane/Berbatov partnership, Modric, Van Der Vaart, Bale, regular European football (although I accept the EL is a bit of a joke), and coming 4/5/4 in the PL in an era where we're nowhere near a lot of our rivals financially, and in doing so establishing ourselves as a bit of a force again.

Taken together, all this is surely preferable to, to give a hypothetical example, winning the FA Cup in 2003, and the League Cup in 2008, and having to put up with the modern-day versions of Gross, Francis, Graham, Trammezani, Vega, Edinburgh, Fox, Armstrong et al. in between, with any good players we may have (Klinsmann, Sheringham, Ginola) blunted by the mediocrity that surrounds them.

I don't think ENIC have been perfect in their stewardship by any means, I understand the "two trophies is better than one trophy" argument, and we've had our fair share of bad days in recent years, but would you honestly swap the last few seasons as a Spurs fan for what went directly before? If you look at it holistically, there's absolutely no contest, in my opinion. To take your time frame, the last 11.75 years have, in my opinion (and this is probably the key phrase here), been far more exciting overall than the previous 11.75 years.

Although having said that, let's all meet back on this thread in 11.75 years time, and re-assess.

Sorry, if you're going to go on with this turgid passionless crap business, I give in debating with you

gazza lineker and mabbutt were turgid and passionless - not in my book

anyway I can't bothered with arguing with your good self anymore, we see football massively differently, that's fine, no problems.

 

[Nocando]

I've already done that and taken the trouble do the research and post the lge position averages in a previous reply, to your good self AFAIK.

Apologies just dipping in and out. does it tally with mine?

 

[Mackay6]

Right just done this very quickly (so havent fully checked dates etc - apologies if this is inccorect). Thanks to TopSpurs for their data.

Levy
Season Division Position Played Won
2011/2012
FA Prem 4 38 20
2010/2011
2001/2002
FA Prem 9 38 14

Average Median Mode
7----------- 7 ------5

Sugar
2000/2001
FA Prem 12 38 13
1991/1992
Division 1 15 42 15

Average Median Mode
11 --------11 ----11


Scholar
1990/1991
Division 1 11 38 11
1982/1983
Division 1 4 42 20

Average Median Mode
7 -----------6------- 3

Whale*
1981/1982
Division 1 4 42 20
1970/1971
Division 1 3 42 19

Average Median Mode
11 ---------10 -----11

Unknown
1969/1970
Division 1 11 42 17
1909/1910
Division 1 15 38 11

Average Median Mode
10 --------10 ------3

*I don't know much about Sidney Wale so the years are a bit of a guess. Nothing on the tinternet about him either.
**I've taken out any div 2 or unknown leagues to only refer to 'top flight'.
**I had to shorten the years due to the site not allowing me to post more than 2000 char. However averages are based on the total period for each owner.

Infact there's little difference between Levy & Scholar, in terms of average league position. And just highlights how bad we have been in the league generally (and this can only reaffirm how well Levy has done in that respect, considering the greater difficulty there is to crack that nut with Utd, City and Chelsea).

Cheers for the research NC - I made our ave position in the years 2002-2012 under levy 7.64, so if you're rounding up and down, it's surely 8th.

Have you added up and divided all the years or just some, I'm not sure.

 

[Mackay6]

I know this isn't music to the ears but I think league placing is a significant indicator of success. More so than trophies in many respects. I'm not talking about Success per se, but quantifying what leads to success as a barometer.

Let me explain that a little further. Trophies are very hit and miss statistically. Without stating the obvious too much you either win them or you don’t. You do not get a full picture of how well that club has done over the course of that season. Take 1999 we were gash in the league but won some tiny cup that a lot of teams didn’t take seriously. Had we not won the Worthington Cup that season, then it would have been seen as a complete failure.

It’s now being used as way of saying we were successful!

A league is a ranking list of sorts so you can analyse the performance of a team better over any given period. It might not suit a typical supporters arguments but I think in terms of building a picture then it is one of the best methods there is.

Fair comments, but I disagree to some extent.

Trophies are a key criterion of deciding overall how successful a club has been.

Obviously if all a team won was lge cups (that's the 'tiny cup' that ENIC have won BTW, you know their only trophy) and say they won 10 but nowt else, then a team with 8 titles and an FA Cup would do better

If we look at clubs overall we can measure success in trophies and legue points - placings too, but hard to find data on this

Trophies, we're 6th overall

http://www.krysstal.com/trophies.html

we were 5th when ENIC took over, but the relentless domination of Chelsea over us during the ENIC years, has seen us slip a place.

all time top flight we're 7th

http://www.statto.com/football/stats/england/premier-league/all-time-table/full

again Chelsea have overtaken us on ENIC's watch, we were probably 6th when ENIC took over, though maybe we've overtaken Toon in that time, but I doubt it.

Premier lge table - we're 5th

http://www.statto.com/football/stats/england/premier-league/all-time-table/full

definite progress here, moving up under ENIc from 7th or 8th place

 

[Nocando]

Fair comments, but I disagree to some extent.

Trophies are a key criterion of deciding overall how successful a club has been.

Obviously if all a team won was lge cups (that's the 'tiny cup' that ENIC have won BTW, you know their only trophy) and say they won 10 but nowt else, then a team with 8 titles and an FA Cup would do better

If we look at clubs overall we can measure success in trophies and legue points - placings too, but hard to find data on this

Exactly its harder to analyse trophies compare to league placings. i suppose you coul develop a points system and incorporate the league in that. as for my data i got 6.78 for scholar and 7 exactly for levy. i couldnt post y table though

 

[Mackay6]

Exactly its harder to analyse trophies compare to league placings. i suppose you coul develop a points system and incorporate the league in that. as for my data i got 6.78 for scholar and 7 exactly for levy. i couldnt post y table though

Fair enough

there is a table somewhere, that does a weighted trophy league, but i don't like it as it includes nonsense like the Super Cup, which is a prestige friendly.

 

[striebs]

Jol - Ramos was a lot worse

The Lane had a special atmosphere when Jol was there and everyone was united .

Juande managed to take all the fun out of going to The Lane to the extent that it ceased to be enjoyable .

In my opinion the one special day out that Juande was fantastic but does not make up for the lack of fun at The Lane .

 

[Nocando]

Here's the relevant bits of the table for Levy & Scholor (although perhaps moving away from my point that significantly better than Sugar and not much different to Scholar)

Season Division Position Played Won Drew Lost For Against Pts Biggest Win
Levy
2011/2012 FA Prem 4 38 20 9 9 66 41 69 5-0 Newcastle United (h)
2010/2011 FA Prem 5 38 16 14 8 55 46 62 04-Feb Blackburn Rovers (h)
2009/2010 FA Prem 4 38 21 7 10 67 41 70 09-Jan Wigan Athletic (h)
2008/2009 FA Prem 8 38 14 9 15 45 45 51 4-0 Middlesbrough (h)
2007/2008 FA Prem 11 38 11 13 14 66 61 46 06-Apr Reading (h)
2006/2007 FA Prem 5 38 17 9 12 57 54 60 05-Jan Charlton Ath (h)
2005/2006 FA Prem 5 38 18 11 9 53 38 65 03-Jan Portsmouth (h)/Charlton (h)
2004/2005 FA Prem 9 38 14 10 14 47 41 52 05-Jan Southampton/Aston Villa (h)
2002/2003 FA Prem 10 38 14 8 16 51 62 50 04-Jan Sunderland (h)
2001/2002 FA Prem 9 38 14 8 16 49 53 50 4-0 Fulham (h)
Average Median Mode
7.00 7 5


Season Division Position Played Won Drew Lost For Against Pts Biggest Win
Scholar
1990/1991 Division 1 11 38 11 16 11 51 50 49 4-0 Sheffield United (h)
1989/1990 Division 1 3 38 19 6 13 59 47 63 4-0 Norwich City (h)
1988/1989 Division 1 6 38 15 12 11 60 46 57 5-0 Millwall (a)
1987/1988 Division 1 13 40 12 11 17 38 48 47 3-0 Oxford (h), Sheff Wed (a)
1986/1987 Division 1 3 42 21 8 13 68 43 71 5-0 Leicester City (h)
1985/1986 Division 1 10 42 19 8 15 74 52 65 5-0 WBA (h) (scored 5, six times)
1984/1985 Division 1 3 42 23 8 11 78 51 77 5-0 QPR (h)
1983/1984 Division 1 8 42 17 10 15 64 65 61 04-Feb Luton (a), Coventry (a)
1982/1983 Division 1 4 42 20 9 13 65 50 69 6-0 Soton (h) + Arsenal 5-0 (h
Average Median Mode
6.78 6 3

 

[tototoner]

The Lane had a special atmosphere when Jol was there and everyone was united .

Juande managed to take all the fun out of going to The Lane to the extent that it ceased to be enjoyable .

In my opinion the one special day out that Juande was fantastic but does not make up for the lack of fun at The Lane .

Hope we don't get deja vu

 

[hybridsoldier]

Anybody who visits White Hart Lane or any Spurs website forum this season knows that the in fighting amongst Spurs fans is worse than we can ever remember. The Redknapp sacking and AVB appointment has Spurs fans at each others throats like never before, with insults flowing back and forth as each argues for their position on the matter.However, regardless of their point of view, should they not have a common target?

Harry was sacked.......who made that decision?
Harry will not be re-instated.......not under this Chairman!
AVB was appointed......who made that decision?
AVB was not backed in the transfer market.......who didnt secure the signings?

Seems to me that regardless of your position on our current state of affairs one man should be the target of peoples anger......Mr.D.Levy.

I think the in fighting has been bad for a while, its a age thing maybe. The older lot want direct and attacking football like Harry had while the younger fans are all about "tactics" and the new "wonderkid" sensations etc. Jol represented the old school, Ramos the new. Harry the old, AVB the new.

We are a fickle lot, there is no avoiding that. A spurs fan's worst enemy is himself!

People like you attacking the chairman are ridiculous and don't remember our standing in European football on and off the pitch before Levy and ENIC came in.

I think the Board/Chairman have royally fucked up the transfer strategy over the years but you just don't know how much is fucking terrible planning and how much is forced hand due to operating in a uneven and tough market.

 

[dcarney75]

Sorry, if you're going to go on with this turgid passionless crap business, I give in debating with you

gazza lineker and mabbutt were turgid and passionless - not in my book

anyway I can't bothered with arguing with your good self anymore, we see football massively differently, that's fine, no problems.

No problem indeed. But next time, I'd be interested to know what you think re: the wider points I'm making before you get all dismissive and patronising.

 

[HotspurFC1950]

I think this is the third thread I've read this morning about our manager so don't think you're going to get your wish, sorry. Personally, I'm thinking about having a self-imposed hiatus from SC, because I'm getting quite bored of threads turning into pro- and anti-AVB 'fights' (I was going to call them discussions but as they generally turn into bitter, personal slanging matches, fight is probably a more apt description ).

Hear hear.

 

[parklane1]

No problem indeed. But next time, I'd be interested to know what you think re: the wider points I'm making before you get all dismissive and patronising.

Do not worry yourself about him mate, he has refused to debate with a few on here because they disagree with him.

 

[HotspurFC1950]

We nearly became extinct in Scholar's time.

Saved by Sugar.

Safe and competitive with Levy.

Vital statistics.

 

[dcarney75]

Do not worry yourself about him mate, he has refused to debate with a few on here because they disagree with him.

Yes, pretty weird. It's the old "leave the argument as we're getting to the crux of it" tactic. This site is getting overrun with maniacs ATM.

 

[parklane1]

Yes, pretty weird. It's the old "leave the argument as we're getting to the crux of it" tactic. This site is getting overrun with maniacs ATM.

the letters T R O L L come to mind.