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Premier League 2020/21

Shadydan

Well-Known Member
Jul 7, 2012
38,247
104,143
Frank throwing his players under the bus and calling them out...but it's gonna be ignored unlike if another manager did that...
 

glacierSpurs

Well-Known Member
Sep 28, 2013
16,163
25,472
Frank throwing his players under the bus and calling them out...but it's gonna be ignored unlike if another manager did that...
I hope he keeps doing that. He seems to wanna emulate Mourinho on this aspect, but I don't think he has those credentials yet to back him like Mourinho used to. Let's see how long his players will play for him.
 

JCRD

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2018
19,153
30,013
I haven't seen the replay, but for clarity, natural position is hands close to your chest, that's it. In theory there is minimal interpretation in these rules.

This was created to give clarity to VAR regarding hand balls (which is why I hate the argument that 'the problem isn't VAR it's the handball rule' as if they were not inherently linked). Right now people are trying to take subjectivity out of the game and to be easier managed by VAR. Not only are they failing at that, but the game is and always will be inherently subjective, and that's why people continuously argue about these decisions all the time. The most important thing is consistency, strong consistency within the match itself and a looser consistency amongst all referees. It's okay for refs to have their own style, it makes the game interesting a varied, VAR is trying to make football more objective and this is not for the benefit of the game but as an attempt to protect referees.

I understand what and why the rules are there for, and I'm all up for consistency. The issue is, consistency doesn't always mean better.

Are we happy with the number of penalties given in the last two or three weeks? In the main no, but I understand why they have been given.
 

Phomesy

Well-Known Member
Aug 20, 2013
9,188
14,102
how the feck did United get a pen in the 100th minute?

Because time-keeping in football is still the subjective remit of the referee as opposed to being objectively enforced by a countdown clock as every single other major sport in the world uses.

It's a farce.
 

Trotter

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2009
2,169
3,312
I haven't seen the replay, but for clarity, natural position is hands close to your chest, that's it. In theory there is minimal interpretation in these rules.

This was created to give clarity to VAR regarding hand balls (which is why I hate the argument that 'the problem isn't VAR it's the handball rule' as if they were not inherently linked). Right now people are trying to take subjectivity out of the game and to be easier managed by VAR. Not only are they failing at that, but the game is and always will be inherently subjective, and that's why people continuously argue about these decisions all the time. The most important thing is consistency, strong consistency within the match itself and a looser consistency amongst all referees. It's okay for refs to have their own style, it makes the game interesting a varied, VAR is trying to make football more objective and this is not for the benefit of the game but as an attempt to protect referees.

Sorry. But that is rubbish.
The handball law has changed because Premier League has not been following the laws as they were written, but instead were adopting a very loose interpretation of them for years, so now IFAB changed them so Premier League have nowhere to go, and have to come in line with the rest of the world. Nothing more, if we had been more stricter with our interpretation in previous seasons, they wouldn't have changed. The only people to blame are the Premier League Clubs, they were the ones that have always asked for the previous interpretation, and because there was enough wiggle room in the laws, our referees were able to referee as the clubs wished rather as the lawmakers intended them to in respect of handball. That loophole has been shut, and now they have given no margin at all for subjectivity. If we had adopted previous laws as intended IFAB would not have changed them, and made them totally black or white.
It is nothing about protecting referees, I cannot even fathom out how you have come to that conclusion.
 
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Snarfalicious

Well-Known Member
Jul 15, 2012
15,710
71,938
I still think it’s really bizarre the lack of black footballers at Burnley. Know Bent said something about it last season which made McNeil upset, but just looking at their First XI on their website, it’s pretty jarring.
 

Marty

Audere est farce
Mar 10, 2005
39,885
62,562
I still think it’s really bizarre the lack of black footballers at Burnley. Know Bent said something about it last season which made McNeil upset, but just looking at their First XI on their website, it’s pretty jarring.
McNeil and Lennon who has just left the club both have one black parent but really the town of Burnley is 92% white (with the rest mostly South Asian and Bangladeshi for whom football usually isn't a priority) and most other towns up there are similar so the catchment area for the youth academy is almost exclusively white. It is a bit surprising that Dyche hasn't signed any black players from other clubs or abroad apart from Lennon, I'll give you that.
 

Trotter

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2009
2,169
3,312
McNeil and Lennon who has just left the club both have one black parent but really the town of Burnley is 92% white (with the rest mostly South Asian and Bangladeshi for whom football usually isn't a priority) and most other towns up there are similar so the catchment area for the youth academy is almost exclusively white. It is a bit surprising that Dyche hasn't signed any black players from other clubs or abroad apart from Lennon, I'll give you that.

However at least 1/3rd of their youth academy is black.
 

Johnny J

Not the Kiwi you need but the one you deserve
Aug 18, 2012
18,124
47,908
The quality of reffing is diabolical at the moment. Why the fuck did the ref blow up for Wood's goal?
 

Trotter

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2009
2,169
3,312
The quality of reffing is diabolical at the moment. Why the fuck did the ref blow up for Wood's goal?

Because he was offside, and linesman had correctly put his flag up and had it up for a while.

And I actually think the standard of refereeing has been far from diabolical, but to a very high level so far this season.
It is actually supporters and commentators lack of understanding of the laws that has been diabolical.

Some of the comments makes it feel like builders critiquing brain surgeons techniques
 
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C0YS

Just another member
Jul 9, 2007
12,780
13,817
Sorry. But that is rubbish.
The handball law has changed because Premier League has not been following the laws as they were written, but instead were adopting a very loose interpretation of them for years, so now IFAB changed them so Premier League have nowhere to go, and have to come in line with the rest of the world. Nothing more, if we had been more stricter with our interpretation in previous seasons, they wouldn't have changed. The only people to blame are the Premier League Clubs, they were the ones that have always asked for the previous interpretation, and because there was enough wiggle room in the laws, our referees were able to referee as the clubs wished rather as the lawmakers intended them to in respect of handball. That loophole has been shut, and now they have given no margin at all for subjectivity. If we had adopted previous laws as intended IFAB would not have changed them, and made them totally black or white.
It is nothing about protecting referees, I cannot even fathom out how you have come to that conclusion.
Mate, the IFAB law had very little to do with the PL, and the handball law has changed football well beyond the PL. In Serie A the rule has been incredibly controversial, and even domestic referees are not exactly happy with the rule change. With the director of referees in Italy calling it a 'problem'.


The original laws were never applied correctly anywhere, because the only thing that mattered was intent. That's it, the issue was different leagues and different refs had different ideas of what intent meant. The PL tended to have a more relaxed approach to handballs, it still does, but no other league cares about that. The PL generally is known to be more relaxed on just about every issue in the game, and this generally is admired by other leagues as a particular English trait.

The law didn't change because of PL controversies. It changed as big handball decisions were being overturned or changed thanks to VAR. Most notably that in the world cup. Similarly, VAR in the CL was causing a lot of handballs and this caused issues. These were causing long debates over if VAR was right to overturn them and there was a lack of clarity in the law. Namely, in the world cup you could make an argument for both sides, was it clear and obvious etc.

Because of these continuously arguable cases which VAR further placed a spotlight on, clarification of the law was pushed, by basically everyone. The laws were changed and a lot of players were involved in consultation, and they came up with what is now being applied. The idea is get rid of confusion and make it easier to follow and, fundamentally, more objective. But this came about because VAR put a spotlight on the current handball rule, and this has happened a lot with VAR, it's essentially made people realise the 'flaws' in the laws (like offside too now) and created difficulty in trying to make objective decisions.

But they are not flaws, they are laws to stop particular problems. They don't need to be strict because their purpose is fairly limited. Handball law exists to stop people playing basketball, and using their hands to gain an unfair advantage. You can use common sense to make judgements on that, but creating an overly precise set of rules over it creates more cases which are just unfair. Same with offside, it exists to prevent goal hanging. Being a cm offside is irrelevant, and has the particular negative effect of making it practically impossible for attacking players to time their runs. Football is run by a very loose set of laws not rules, designed to limit things to make the game better. They are not rules, which serve to dictate how the game is played.

Football as a sport started naturalisticly and spontaneously, it was not a sport invented in Eton. It didn't have any rules or laws originally, more like house rules, or regional habits and varieties. It's not comparable to sports like Cricket or Tennis which have very clear parameters and regulations, Football was chaotic and pretty random. The laws were set to try and standardise the sport but also maximise what was good and limit what was bad, and that makes the laws of the games, a set restrictions, not a rule book. And it's actually for that reason you get so much cultural diversity on how those laws are applied, which makes football more interesting, not less. So, I guess my point is, it feels like we are moving away from this, and it's frustrating and is hurting the game.
 
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Johnny J

Not the Kiwi you need but the one you deserve
Aug 18, 2012
18,124
47,908
Because he was offside, and linesman had correctly put his flag up and had it up for a while.

And I actually think the standard of refereeing has been far from diabolical, but to a very high level so far this season.
It is actually supporters and commentators lack of understanding of the laws that has been diabolical.

Some of the comments makes it feel like builders critiquing brain surgeons techniques
No need to be rude, I'm not an idiot mate.

Linesmen have been told not to raise their flag, and refs not to blow their whistle, right away on close calls, specifically to allow VAR to review the incident.
 
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