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Spurs Youth Thread 20/21

Blake Griffin

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2011
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Haven't read it as I'm not paying but on what basis are they calling him a late developer. As you say he's 18. Comparing him to Kane and Tanganga, from what I read publicly I'm assuming they mean, they think he wasn't very good and developed relatively late to all of his teammates. If that's what they are saying, then they're wrong for all 3 of them, as they have all pretty much been the best players or ones with highest potential since I became aware of them 12/13 for DC and JT, 17/18 for Kane.

I'd argue Winks was more of a late developer as I didn't think he was first team ready until at least his first year in u21s or that's when he became clearly the best in his year group

agree, i don't see how someone who has been a regular starter for england from u15/u16s onwards could be seen as a late developer. also here's a post i made from a couple of years ago before he joined the academy full time:

my u16 top five for what it's worth would be parrott(assume you forgot him?), bennett, white, cirkin and probably binks - i thought he looked good in the qatar tour but less so in the recent italy games. i'll leave madueke out for now as i assume he's gone, but hopefully he ends up staying.

so clearly he's always been seen as being amongst the best in his year group, it's not like he's suddenly shot up from the bottom or middle of the pack. maybe what they're trying to say though with him, tanganga and kane is that whilst they were rated within the club and those who follow the whole youth setup, they didn't have that more mainstream hype that onomah or edwards had where most fans knew of them despite never actually seeing them play.
 

McFlash

In the corner, eating crayons.
Oct 19, 2005
12,740
45,363
agree, i don't see how someone who has been a regular starter for england from u15/u16s onwards could be seen as a late developer. also here's a post i made from a couple of years ago before he joined the academy full time:



so clearly he's always been seen as being amongst the best in his year group, it's not like he's suddenly shot up from the bottom or middle of the pack. maybe what they're trying to say though with him, tanganga and kane is that whilst they were rated within the club and those who follow the whole youth setup, they didn't have that more mainstream hype that onomah or edwards had where most fans knew of them despite never actually seeing them play.
Agree with this. I was chatting to a season ticket holder in the pub yesterday and he'd never heard of half of our youth prospects from the game against Watford, so he certainly won't know the younger lot.
He's a longtime season ticket holder and a die-hard fan.

We on here, owe a lot to the youth watchers in this thread. ?
 

Anuth

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2008
745
2,346
Binks interview

 

Blake Griffin

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2011
14,133
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also another issue with poch's failings was that it was having a knock on effect further down the academy. madueke would have looked at how it's gone for those players he knows and that will have played a big part in him leaving and whilst binks technically left under jose his move was already in place before then. we weren't losing players in the first 2-3 years of poch being here but since then it has become a regular occurrence to see them going elsewhere.
Putting Binks on MP is laughable, as is Madueke.

interested to hear what you think about this @Phil_2.0?

(LB is luis binks)
FO: Did anything change for you once Mourinho came in replacing Pochettino?

LB: “Yeah when Mourinho came in, for me personally it changed a lot of things. I was training with the first team [under Mourinho] more than I was when I was with Pochettino and I think he liked me more than Pochettino did so for me it was good.”

FO: What made you leave Spurs and how tough was that decision after so many years?

LB: “The decision to leave Spurs was a decision I thought about for many months. I wanted the exposure of regular first team football as I felt the U23s league was not doing me any good and wouldn’t help me develop as quick as I could have. I was told that if I do well I might be able to go on the pre-season tour and if I had done well there then maybe cup games and bench appearances would come my way, but I’ve seen players such as KWP [Kyle Walker-Peters], Skippy [Oliver Skipp] and Troy [Parrott] and they hardly played games and for someone like me I look forward to games and it helps me develop.”
 

Locotoro

Prince of Zamunda
Sep 2, 2004
9,326
13,915
interested to hear what you think about this @Phil_2.0?

(LB is luis binks)
I think many people will be reading these interviews from the likes of Binks, Madueke etc and will be secretly eating their words.

For me, already having admitted to being wrong on my views, I only feel disappointment in the way it was managed. Having said that....if Binks was given opportunities would we have Tanganga, if we had Onomah, would we be developing White. I think for every player we lose we're opening an avenue for another player.
 

FibreOpticJesus

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2005
2,788
4,991
Binks interview

Cheers for info.
Nothing wrong with his desire to play football and reinforces how poor u23 footy is.

Why the hell we couldn't match his desires with a loan shows how poor man management and development is at our club.
 

Marty

Audere est farce
Mar 10, 2005
39,885
62,561
Cheers for info.
Nothing wrong with his desire to play football and reinforces how poor u23 footy is.

Why the hell we couldn't match his desires with a loan shows how poor man management and development is at our club.
It gets repeated every few pages in this thread but we really needed someone at the club to force Poch into accepting that loan deals actually are crucial to a player's development more often than not these days. Only playing in the U23 league and the odd cup cameo is a massive hindrance to most players even if they train with the first team every day.

Mourinho thankfully doesn't hold that view.
 

IGSpur

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2013
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13,758
agree, i don't see how someone who has been a regular starter for england from u15/u16s onwards could be seen as a late developer. also here's a post i made from a couple of years ago before he joined the academy full time:



so clearly he's always been seen as being amongst the best in his year group, it's not like he's suddenly shot up from the bottom or middle of the pack. maybe what they're trying to say though with him, tanganga and kane is that whilst they were rated within the club and those who follow the whole youth setup, they didn't have that more mainstream hype that onomah or edwards had where most fans knew of them despite never actually seeing them play.

Ye. Though I remember some people weren't impressed at their first glimpse of him, but as you say he's regularly been one of the best since

And I think that makes sense. Edwards was the best player in his age group and considered one of the best in the world, and both him and Onomah had clubs after them, I don't really recall anyone chasing the others

interested to hear what you think about this @Phil_2.0?

(LB is luis binks)

Also Madueke gave an interview saying he left because he didn't see a pathway and a more recent interview saying he felt this justified his decision.

I don't know if I'd ever said it before but people need to remember these youngsters are training with the first team. They are able to compare their or their mates' ability with first teamers. If you are seeing academy players outperform them, and not play what makes you think that you would ever get a chance yourself. I remember there was ITK from Lamela saying Edwards looks a star or something, then, as we've previously known and seen in the documentary things like Alli being lazy in training, and you start to see the goalposts being moved, why would you have any faith in sticking around
 
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IGSpur

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2013
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13,758
For me, already having admitted to being wrong on my views, I only feel disappointment in the way it was managed. Having said that....if Binks was given opportunities would we have Tanganga, if we had Onomah, would we be developing White. I think for every player we lose we're opening an avenue for another player.

You're right. Even at my most critical I've always said I don't expect any more than one player to come through in any position. Not that it can't be done, but appreciate it's harder. So just seeing Tanganga getting chances I'm happy if it means sacrificing Binks though they're similar in ability. The difference between Onomah and White is greater but White is a very good player. Swings and roundabouts.

This is also why I've always been against signing other top players in positions we already have top players. We can only bring one through at a time, and the benefit of having competition is minimal having been competing their whole life. All it serves to do is remove another potential England player from ever coming through.
 

IGSpur

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2013
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13,758
So what confuses me is why go for older players with shorter shelf life and more physically restricting age levels than a young guy that can run all day, do exactly what you ask and play aggressively .

The thing that matters the most to all managers imo...experience. The fear of an academy player making a mistake is disproportional to that of a more experienced player making a mistake. As a result their aren't given the chances. That distrust really cripples managers to the point they would rather waste money than give them a chance. Aurier literally made mistake after mistake, in terms of penalties and bookings as did Walker, and Trippier had a terrible season, but people just remembered KWP slip against Barcelona and the handball at Crystal Palace and seemed to think he was a liability for appearing physically weaker.
 

Locotoro

Prince of Zamunda
Sep 2, 2004
9,326
13,915
The thing that matters the most to all managers imo...experience. The fear of an academy player making a mistake is disproportional to that of a more experienced player making a mistake. As a result their aren't given the chances. That distrust really cripples managers to the point they would rather waste money than give them a chance. Aurier literally made mistake after mistake, in terms of penalties and bookings as did Walker, and Trippier had a terrible season, but people just remembered KWP slip against Barcelona and the handball at Crystal Palace and seemed to think he was a liability for appearing physically weaker.
To be balanced on the kwp debate, it's difficult for fans to judge a player when they've not seen the best he can produce. We've seen the best of Walker, Trippier and Aurier (what is it with our right backs ending in "er") but even when kwp got the mom performance there wasn't enough there to make people say wow so what they had to compare against wasn't a lot.
Obviously he didn't have many chances and that's a big issue but people can only judge what they see.
It's also why Aaron's got a lot of praise, he had a couple of standout performance but didn't perform defensively better than kwp but people were pitching him as a solution
 

beats1

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2010
30,006
29,551
I think many people will be reading these interviews from the likes of Binks, Madueke etc and will be secretly eating their words.

For me, already having admitted to being wrong on my views, I only feel disappointment in the way it was managed. Having said that....if Binks was given opportunities would we have Tanganga, if we had Onomah, would we be developing White. I think for every player we lose we're opening an avenue for another player.
I disagree, fundamentally

They aren't the same players, the idea is to take from the academy if the first team is lacking players

See when Kane, Townsend, Mason, Bentaleb and Rose came through, players like Winks, KWP, Edwards and Onomah stuck around through a hard time with their careers because of that track record. When the next group came through, they live football at the academy and aren't stupid to see the people they looked up to 4 years ahead of them and on their level weren't given a shot.

Going back to Binks and Tanganga, there is 3 years difference in age between them. We could have loaned Binks out and whilst we assess Tanganga.

Whilst the same applies for White, its also worth noting he plays a totally different position.

I understand what you are saying in theory, but look at what happened under Poch and the transfer committee

We had these CB's during his 5 year tenure and the age he inherited them or signed them
Kaboul (28)
Vertonghen (28)
Chiriches (24)
Dier (20)
Fazio (27)
-
Alderweireld (26)
Wimmer (22)
-
Sanchez (21)
Foyth (19)
-

By his 2nd of his 5 seasons, Poch had his 1st choice RCB and LCB as well as his third choice CB throughout his 5 years. Getting, a CB from the academy to be his 5th choice wouldn't have been so bad like Foyth, Chiriches and etc.

People say we are a team fighting for the top 4/title but the majority of crap in the above list didn't play in the league and were used in the cups before being shipped out. We didn't win a trophy in that era so developing some players in the cup would have been great for the first team, lets not forget Rashford would probably not play for the first team had Rooney not got injured during the warm up in the europa
 

Ron Burgundy

SC Supporter
Jun 19, 2008
7,705
23,267
People say we are a team fighting for the top 4/title but the majority of crap in the above list didn't play in the league and were used in the cups before being shipped out. We didn't win a trophy in that era so developing some players in the cup would have been great for the first team, lets not forget Rashford would probably not play for the first team had Rooney not got injured during the warm up in the europa

Yup. Good young players frequently left during the Poch era. Yes, he helped the likes of Winks come through, but it felt for a long time like there was something fundamentally wrong with the youth system here.

There is no reason why the likes of Madueke should leave. Chelsea have, for absolutely ages, managed a massive squad of kids by frequently loaning out. They're reaping the benefits now.
 

Locotoro

Prince of Zamunda
Sep 2, 2004
9,326
13,915
I respect your view but there is a lot there i disagree with.

I disagree, fundamentally

They aren't the same players, the idea is to take from the academy if the first team is lacking players

See when Kane, Townsend, Mason, Bentaleb and Rose came through, players like Winks, KWP, Edwards and Onomah stuck around through a hard time with their careers because of that track record. When the next group came through, they live football at the academy and aren't stupid to see the people they looked up to 4 years ahead of them and on their level weren't given a shot.

By any logic, you can only fit 11 players on a pitch at any one time and even with the most well intentioned rotation policy you're only going to have a full senior squad of 26 -28 players who are going to get opportunities. When Kane, Townsend, Mason, Bentaleb and Rose came through we were competing in the Europa League and on the outside of the UCL party. They made that step up and replaced many players who were not performing. Its evident now that the pressure to perform is much greater and whilst the youth players are potentially expected to reach a higher quality we have fewer senior players that are performing as badly (relatively speaking). For example, who does your modern day incarnation of Townsend displace in todays squad? Son? Lucas? Bergwijn? Lamela? Unfortunately, none of them, because when they play for the first team they consistently perform to a much higher level than the squad he burst into when he came through.

Going back to Binks and Tanganga, there is 3 years difference in age between them. We could have loaned Binks out and whilst we assess Tanganga.

Whilst the same applies for White, its also worth noting he plays a totally different position.

Binks and Tanganga may play different styles and have different attributes but fundamentally they play the same position on the pitch. If Binks was pushed into the first-team and made appearances I can't see any world where Tanganga is part of the first team.

Yes, ideally some of these players would go on loans as you've mentioned - but that was intrinsically the core problem! Players not being allowed on loans. So if we talking about loaning players out we're comparing apples to oranges because this set of circumstances wouldnt be playing out the way it is. We'd have Onomah, Edwards, Binks, Mudeke all out on loan and part of our long term development plans getting first-team football and younger players would see the pathway and be inclined to stick around.

I understand what you are saying in theory, but look at what happened under Poch and the transfer committee

We had these CB's during his 5 year tenure and the age he inherited them or signed them
Kaboul (28)
Vertonghen (28)
Chiriches (24)
Dier (20)
Fazio (27)
-
Alderweireld (26)
Wimmer (22)
-
Sanchez (21)
Foyth (19)
-

By his 2nd of his 5 seasons, Poch had his 1st choice RCB and LCB as well as his third choice CB throughout his 5 years. Getting, a CB from the academy to be his 5th choice wouldn't have been so bad like Foyth, Chiriches and etc.

I don't think i follow the point you've made here. If you're saying he could have brought through a youth team player to make up the numbers that would have been better than Chiriches and Foyth then I agree with you but you're almost forgetting he had the chance to do that with CCV and the player played almost zero games. The point I was making is that even just having CCV there was a roadblock to Binks or Tanganga or Eyoma or whoever and when CCV left on loan if another player moved up that would have been at the detriment of the others. Squad places are limited and first team places are even more limited.

People say we are a team fighting for the top 4/title but the majority of crap in the above list didn't play in the league and were used in the cups before being shipped out. We didn't win a trophy in that era so developing some players in the cup would have been great for the first team, lets not forget Rashford would probably not play for the first team had Rooney not got injured during the warm up in the europa

I agree, but that doesnt refute my point. Rashford got a chance and took it but his elevation to the first team was a direct competition to Demtri Mitchell in that Man Utd reserves team, he even ended up moving further back the pitch to try and find a way through or another example when McTominey came through that put a block on the development of Tosin Kehinde in that DMC role. These two are good examples of players who were at the time of the debuts were considered less talented than their counterparts but they have solidified first team roles and the others did not.
 

newbie

Well-Known Member
Jul 16, 2004
6,051
6,342
hind sight we would have been better to play youth rather than sign Vlad, and even really forth as much as ppl can see his quality his been at spurs 3 years? yet is he better than Tanganga? there are prob better defenders in the accademy, prob not ball players but defenders yes!
 

MattPhilpott

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2013
844
3,176
With all the lack of striker talk and Troy out on loan...I wonder if there is any thoughts on Kion Etete for the trip to Plovdiv...

Let’s be honest...the guy represents a skill set that we severely lack in the team , in the fact that he is a colossal forward. We know that José likes his big forwards and could be a real troublemaker if he is thrown on for 30-45 mins.
Think how many time Fellaini bailed Mourinho out at United, or how we ended up in the final of the CL due to Llorente’s holdup play.

Marcus Rashford couldn’t even start for the U23’s at Utd, for a chance and took it. Is Etete the next Rashford? No, probably not. But if we can take a 25 man squad to Bulgaria with us, and again for the next qualifying round...I think it’s a no brainer not to include your 6foot6 striker in that. Especially at a time when it’s the position we lack the most.

Take a punt on the kid, I honestly cannot see any downside? Even if we are 2-3 goals up. Throw him on, get him some experience, because the chances are we’ll have to call upon somebody this season, and I think it would be awesome to be him...

Just my opinion, genuinely interested to see what you all think?

COYS
 
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