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Player Watch: Pierre-Emile Højbjerg

nedley

John Duncan's Love Child
Jul 28, 2006
13,941
28,069
I'm really sad Winks is being seen like this. He was a quality youngster and then had the whole midfield dropped on his shoulders with little team structure around him for the last year and a half. I still think he's done an admirable job in the circumstances.
So.fucking.true
 

kursaal

Well-Known Member
Aug 20, 2013
2,279
7,970
Suggestion on Football London that Sessengon will be sent out on loan next season. Maybe used to sweeten the deal for PEH? If they pay a fee for KWP and they get Sess for 12 months that may cover the costs.
.
 
Aug 9, 2008
4,910
8,415
Absolutely this. We played, at our best, with a 6, 8 and 10 centrally, two hugely athletic wing backs, and two centre backs with great chemistry and footballing ability to defend centrally or wider areas with equal ease. The wheels came off as some of those components either left or lost some of their physical gifts. We didn’t replace like for like, and the balance has been completely lost. We’ve ended up with round pegs in square holes, then wonder why these players don’t look the same.

Dier, and latterly Wanyama as 6’s provided us a defensive screen who allowed the fullbacks to push on, safe in the knowledge that Defensive Midfield player would sit in and virtually create a back 3, such was the ability of Toby and Jan to slide over and cover the wider areas, solidity was maintained.
Dembele was imperious as a 6/8 hybrid, power and presence of a 6, but with the ability of an 8 to always show for the ball even when under pressure, and still promote the ball upfield, be that by carrying or passing. His role was ultimately to almost assist the assister.
The 10, be that Eriksen or Alli was then free to pick up pockets of space to do the damage. Play into Kane and look for the return, or feed the wing backs and look to follow up in the half spaces created by a retreating defence.

It worked because the relative skillsets for the individual roles were all in place. It started to go wrong as the players left of became less able physically. The loss of the athletic fullbacks meant we lost our width. Dier wasn’t the most mobile, but the others were, so it worked ok. When we lost the athleticism of Walker, Rose and to an extent Demebele, Dier then got exposed. This also placed more pressure on Toby and Jan to cover. Without the full backs lashing up and down the flanks, it then stopped pulling defenders across, and left the Eriksen/Alli spaces more congested, as such they became less effective.
Winks in effect was better suited to the Dembele role, someone to show for the ball and move it forward, always busy, but he’s ended up having to be the six, and it doesn’t suit his physical and technical abilities. As such he’s stalled. Sissoko was deemed to be the Dembele heir based on his physical attributes alone, but he doesn’t have the footballing skillset to really fulfil the role, he lacks decision making and execution. In Winks and Lo Celso, we have two eights, Alli and Ndombele we have two ‘10’s capable of doing damage on the edge of the box, but both need a proper 6 to free them up to play, and also athletic fullbacks to cath our attack and draw out defenders, thus creating space.
Hojberg looks like he could be part of the solution, but not alone.

Exremely accurate and compendious post
 

DJS

A hoonter must hoont
Dec 9, 2006
31,261
21,760
Absolutely, but instead of recruiting a proper DM to free Winks up to play as an 8, we bought 2 more 8s and pushed Winks down the order because he hadn't pulled up trees in an unfamiliar position at DM. Bit bonkers really.

Edit; We brought in 3 number 8s actually if you count Gedson Fernandes.

Yep I’d still really like to see Winks in a proper midfield three with a specialist defensive midfielder amongst them before writing him off.
 

fishhhandaricecake

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2018
18,702
46,941
So.fucking.true
He’s a good player and a great lad but he’s quite a particular player I don’t think he can be a CDM in a 4-3-3 or works well in a two in a 4-2-3-1, he’s not attacking or creative, he receives the ball well in right areas and can pass well and set the tempo but what is his actual ideal position or role?

I love the guy, spurs through and through and clearly talented but seems like a bit of a luxury player to me just don’t know where he fits in long term.
 

C0YS

Just another member
Jul 9, 2007
12,780
13,817
From 2016-2018 we had two incredibly strong and very well positioned cms (Wanyama & Dembele) who both allowed other players to play more expressively and further up the pitch.

Now, Winks is playing deeper and has also being asked to do more screening and defensive duties. This isn't his ideal role.

But because we lost those two titans who ensured defensive resolve and control of the midfield, Winksy is unable to be freed up to do what he can do best.

Against Madrid he was popping up in the final third and in and around the box and was moving the ball really well.

Now he spends the majority of the game in his own half trying to drive out in transition.
This this this.

You cannot honestly compare Winks now to how he was playing before we were forced into a Winks-Sissoko midfield last season. He is playing a drastically different role. He is our holding midfielder, but it's not his natural position. For what it's worth he has really improved in the role and at Spurs it might possibly be his long term future. But you cannot expect him to be doing the same kind of thing, it's not his role for us anymore.

In my book his best position will always be n.8, but we actually have a lot of number 8s right now, who probably offer more than what he does. I can see his future being in n.6 but he does need someone else to compete with him, and someone we can use in games where defensive solidity is more important than keeping the ball in transition.

Winks is very good at keeping the ball, he is very good at rotating into space (all our youth players are, they are coached to that from a young age) and making the right (boring) pass. His positional play when on the ball is very good, when off the ball he is improving, but he will never really have the frame and presence to be a natural in doing so.

For what its worth, statistically there are few better players at keeping the ball than Winks, and this is an important part of the role (namely, taking the ball under pressure from the defence and finding the free man). His passing accuracy puts him 4th in central midfielders and second in the league if you don't count man city. Only Wijnaldum is ahead of him. And he makes the 12th most passes in a game from midfield or 7th if you remove Man City (Or 4th if you remove the top 3 possession teams in the league, not a single player ahead of him comes from a team that keeps less possession than us). So lots of passes, high accuracy.

Meanwhile Winks is 10th lowest rate of not being dispossessed but needs to work a bit on unsuccessful touches as he is 21st out of 64 from midfielders. Which is good, and is the best in the team, but not excellent. But overall this is very good possession stats are very good.

If looking at just players who are listed as playing DM (this is complicated as frankly whoscored is very bad at understanding position) Winks comes 4th/27th in unsuccessful touches (much better! Btw Hojbjerg is rock bottom by a long shot 2.2 a game, more than four times as much as top DMs in that stat Neves and Fabinho, and more than twice as much as Winks on 1) and 2nd for not being dispossessed. Good numbers.

Looking defensively it's a bit meh, though stats are misleading as most of defensive work is positional play. Blocked passes can be a very useful stat to look at harry Winks is 33/64 (19/27 in listed DM). 20th for not being dribbled past (or 13/27). 32nd for interceptions (21/27) and 5th in lowest fouls given per game (6/27, there is a discrepancy because Winks isn't always listed as being a DM and I've set the new limit to 5 appearances or more instead of 10 for DM) and 24th in winning freekicks (9/27).

So pretty middle of the road., defensively, though generally the worse the team the better the stats for defensive stats. If you need to defend more you make more defensive moves! But this is where he needs to work on.

For me as a DM he needs to improve in two main things. Defensive positional play and he needs to be more aggressive, more aggressive in pressuring players in particular. Even so, these things can be worked on and are seeing signs of improvement, but ultimately his size and body shape count against him, and he isn't quick or mobile enough to offset that. So I don't think he will ever be a top quality holding midfielder, but he could develop into a very competent one that could be particularly useful in certain games and situations.
 

fishhhandaricecake

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2018
18,702
46,941
This this this.

You cannot honestly compare Winks now to how he was playing before we were forced into a Winks-Sissoko midfield last season. He is playing a drastically different role. He is our holding midfielder, but it's not his natural position. For what it's worth he has really improved in the role and at Spurs it might possibly be his long term future. But you cannot expect him to be doing the same kind of thing, it's not his role for us anymore.

In my book his best position will always be n.8, but we actually have a lot of number 8s right now, who probably offer more than what he does. I can see his future being in n.6 but he does need someone else to compete with him, and someone we can use in games where defensive solidity is more important than keeping the ball in transition.

Winks is very good at keeping the ball, he is very good at rotating into space (all our youth players are, they are coached to that from a young age) and making the right (boring) pass. His positional play when on the ball is very good, when off the ball he is improving, but he will never really have the frame and presence to be a natural in doing so.

For what its worth, statistically there are few better players at keeping the ball than Winks, and this is an important part of the role (namely, taking the ball under pressure from the defence and finding the free man). His passing accuracy puts him 4th in central midfielders and second in the league if you don't count man city. Only Wijnaldum is ahead of him. And he makes the 12th most passes in a game from midfield or 7th if you remove Man City (Or 4th if you remove the top 3 possession teams in the league, not a single player ahead of him comes from a team that keeps less possession than us). So lots of passes, high accuracy.

Meanwhile Winks is 10th lowest rate of not being dispossessed but needs to work a bit on unsuccessful touches as he is 21st out of 64 from midfielders. Which is good, and is the best in the team, but not excellent. But overall this is very good possession stats are very good.

If looking at just players who are listed as playing DM (this is complicated as frankly whoscored is very bad at understanding position) Winks comes 4th/27th in unsuccessful touches (much better! Btw Hojbjerg is rock bottom by a long shot 2.2 a game, more than four times as much as top DMs in that stat Neves and Fabinho, and more than twice as much as Winks on 1) and 2nd for not being dispossessed. Good numbers.

Looking defensively it's a bit meh, though stats are misleading as most of defensive work is positional play. Blocked passes can be a very useful stat to look at harry Winks is 33/64 (19/27 in listed DM). 20th for not being dribbled past (or 13/27). 32nd for interceptions (21/27) and 5th in lowest fouls given per game (6/27, there is a discrepancy because Winks isn't always listed as being a DM and I've set the new limit to 5 appearances or more instead of 10 for DM) and 24th in winning freekicks (9/27).

So pretty middle of the road., defensively, though generally the worse the team the better the stats for defensive stats. If you need to defend more you make more defensive moves! But this is where he needs to work on.

For me as a DM he needs to improve in two main things. Defensive positional play and he needs to be more aggressive, more aggressive in pressuring players in particular. Even so, these things can be worked on and are seeing signs of improvement, but ultimately his size and body shape count against him, and he isn't quick or mobile enough to offset that. So I don't think he will ever be a top quality holding midfielder, but he could develop into a very competent one that could be particularly useful in certain games and situations.
Cool
Stats :)
 

C0YS

Just another member
Jul 9, 2007
12,780
13,817
Absolutely this. We played, at our best, with a 6, 8 and 10 centrally, two hugely athletic wing backs, and two centre backs with great chemistry and footballing ability to defend centrally or wider areas with equal ease. The wheels came off as some of those components either left or lost some of their physical gifts. We didn’t replace like for like, and the balance has been completely lost. We’ve ended up with round pegs in square holes, then wonder why these players don’t look the same.

Dier, and latterly Wanyama as 6’s provided us a defensive screen who allowed the fullbacks to push on, safe in the knowledge that Defensive Midfield player would sit in and virtually create a back 3, such was the ability of Toby and Jan to slide over and cover the wider areas, solidity was maintained.
Dembele was imperious as a 6/8 hybrid, power and presence of a 6, but with the ability of an 8 to always show for the ball even when under pressure, and still promote the ball upfield, be that by carrying or passing. His role was ultimately to almost assist the assister.
The 10, be that Eriksen or Alli was then free to pick up pockets of space to do the damage. Play into Kane and look for the return, or feed the wing backs and look to follow up in the half spaces created by a retreating defence.

It worked because the relative skillsets for the individual roles were all in place. It started to go wrong as the players left of became less able physically. The loss of the athletic fullbacks meant we lost our width. Dier wasn’t the most mobile, but the others were, so it worked ok. When we lost the athleticism of Walker, Rose and to an extent Demebele, Dier then got exposed. This also placed more pressure on Toby and Jan to cover. Without the full backs lashing up and down the flanks, it then stopped pulling defenders across, and left the Eriksen/Alli spaces more congested, as such they became less effective.
Winks in effect was better suited to the Dembele role, someone to show for the ball and move it forward, always busy, but he’s ended up having to be the six, and it doesn’t suit his physical and technical abilities. As such he’s stalled. Sissoko was deemed to be the Dembele heir based on his physical attributes alone, but he doesn’t have the footballing skillset to really fulfil the role, he lacks decision making and execution. In Winks and Lo Celso, we have two eights, Alli and Ndombele we have two ‘10’s capable of doing damage on the edge of the box, but both need a proper 6 to free them up to play, and also athletic fullbacks to cath our attack and draw out defenders, thus creating space.
Hojberg looks like he could be part of the solution, but not alone.
I think you are right. But also after losing Dembele, we stopped playing with a DM/CB hybrid. Dier was always playing something in between not really a real DM, and once his game became largely in midfield, hindered by his injuries, he couldn't keep up with the pace in midfield. Because he used to function as a CB on the ball really.
 

wiggo24

Well-Known Member
Jan 5, 2013
5,091
36,808
Absolutely this. We played, at our best, with a 6, 8 and 10 centrally, two hugely athletic wing backs, and two centre backs with great chemistry and footballing ability to defend centrally or wider areas with equal ease. The wheels came off as some of those components either left or lost some of their physical gifts. We didn’t replace like for like, and the balance has been completely lost. We’ve ended up with round pegs in square holes, then wonder why these players don’t look the same.

Dier, and latterly Wanyama as 6’s provided us a defensive screen who allowed the fullbacks to push on, safe in the knowledge that Defensive Midfield player would sit in and virtually create a back 3, such was the ability of Toby and Jan to slide over and cover the wider areas, solidity was maintained.
Dembele was imperious as a 6/8 hybrid, power and presence of a 6, but with the ability of an 8 to always show for the ball even when under pressure, and still promote the ball upfield, be that by carrying or passing. His role was ultimately to almost assist the assister.
The 10, be that Eriksen or Alli was then free to pick up pockets of space to do the damage. Play into Kane and look for the return, or feed the wing backs and look to follow up in the half spaces created by a retreating defence.

It worked because the relative skillsets for the individual roles were all in place. It started to go wrong as the players left of became less able physically. The loss of the athletic fullbacks meant we lost our width. Dier wasn’t the most mobile, but the others were, so it worked ok. When we lost the athleticism of Walker, Rose and to an extent Demebele, Dier then got exposed. This also placed more pressure on Toby and Jan to cover. Without the full backs lashing up and down the flanks, it then stopped pulling defenders across, and left the Eriksen/Alli spaces more congested, as such they became less effective.
Winks in effect was better suited to the Dembele role, someone to show for the ball and move it forward, always busy, but he’s ended up having to be the six, and it doesn’t suit his physical and technical abilities. As such he’s stalled. Sissoko was deemed to be the Dembele heir based on his physical attributes alone, but he doesn’t have the footballing skillset to really fulfil the role, he lacks decision making and execution. In Winks and Lo Celso, we have two eights, Alli and Ndombele we have two ‘10’s capable of doing damage on the edge of the box, but both need a proper 6 to free them up to play, and also athletic fullbacks to cath our attack and draw out defenders, thus creating space.
Hojberg looks like he could be part of the solution, but not alone.

Bang on. Remarkable that so many key positions weren't addressed during a period within which we could have potentially had some real success.
 

Montalbano

Well-Known Member
Jan 29, 2018
3,917
18,685
Not surprised to see Ajax lurking around Southampton, they are definitely happy customers of theirs after they scooped Dusan Tadic for 11m. Van de Beek seems sure to depart as well.
 

spursfan77

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2005
46,680
104,956
From 2016-2018 we had two incredibly strong and very well positioned cms (Wanyama & Dembele) who both allowed other players to play more expressively and further up the pitch.

Now, Winks is playing deeper and has also being asked to do more screening and defensive duties. This isn't his ideal role.

But because we lost those two titans who ensured defensive resolve and control of the midfield, Winksy is unable to be freed up to do what he can do best.

Against Madrid he was popping up in the final third and in and around the box and was moving the ball really well.

Now he spends the majority of the game in his own half trying to drive out in transition.

He has been turned into a player he isn’t by Pochettino.

Apart from holbjerg we haven’t been linked with a single midfielder. That’s a concern for me.
 

emiley heskey

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2020
1,121
1,832
He has been turned into a player he isn’t by Pochettino.

Apart from holbjerg we haven’t been linked with a single midfielder. That’s a concern for me.

Hojberg will be our wanyama replacement. We have already replaced dier with winks. Dembele replaced by ndombele, lo celso for eriksen. We will only buy another midfielder if we sell Sissoko.
 

coy-spurs1882

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
3,989
10,442
He has been turned into a player he isn’t by Pochettino.

Apart from holbjerg we haven’t been linked with a single midfielder. That’s a concern for me.
didn't jose said harvey white would be included in first team next season? so...:X3:
 

WiganSpur

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
15,974
32,682
Suggestion on Football London that Sessengon will be sent out on loan next season. Maybe used to sweeten the deal for PEH? If they pay a fee for KWP and they get Sess for 12 months that may cover the costs.
.
I'd take that if it turns out Cirkin is any good.
 

Japhet

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2010
19,232
57,386
Could be that he’s instructed to play the way he does. Seems to play like Ray Wilkins did years ago,he was always branded a sideways and backwards player.

I think that's one thing people often overlook with Winks, especially when criticising his passing range. Maybe, just maybe, he's doing exactly what he's been asked to do by prioritising ball retention over risky but incisive passing.
 

Who’s our next manager?

Well-Known Member
Jul 6, 2020
1,231
1,806
Hojberg will be our wanyama replacement. We have already replaced dier with winks. Dembele replaced by ndombele, lo celso for eriksen. We will only buy another midfielder if we sell Sissoko.

I notice your choice of Eberechi Eze, that is one player we should get and should not cost the earth. We missed out on Championship players like Maddison and Grealish and look at them now. One of my top picks for the Summer even if we sold Moura or Lamela to fund him.
 
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