Jose Mourinho

Metalhead · Jul 7, 2020

Bobby TwoShots said:
Agree. But then neither is judging him on the quality of the football he's delivered so far. Hence @Japhet's point: "it cuts both ways"

Absolutely. That’s what I mean - it’s early days to judge even though the football hasn’t been great. The ideal thing is not to either say that he’ll definitely be a success or that he’ll bomb.

mill · Jul 7, 2020

Ledley's Right Foot said:
Well, at least you gave him three months to prove himself. Something is better than nothing. Trying to think of a manager who landed mid season in a failing team and got them playing exciting, attacking and winning football within 3 months. If I think of one, I'll pass it on.

They were terrible games mind. That I can agree with.

Poch at soton?

Saoirse · Jul 7, 2020

Ledley's Right Foot said:
Well, at least you gave him three months to prove himself. Something is better than nothing. Trying to think of a manager who landed mid season in a failing team and got them playing exciting, attacking and winning football within 3 months. If I think of one, I'll pass it on.

They were terrible games mind. That I can agree with.

Literally Tactics Tim got (much) better results than Mourinho has. We hear all the excuses now, but Jose clearly has a better, more coherent squad available to him. Nobody's asking for miracles here.

Ledley's Right Foot · Jul 7, 2020

mill said:
Poch at soton?

I think the second season is where the football got really good. But then again, it's poch, he's magic you know.

Edit: and poch didn't hit the last criteria at soton - 8th place was highest finish there.

Ledley's Right Foot · Jul 7, 2020

Saoirse said:
Literally Tactics Tim got (much) better results than Mourinho has. We hear all the excuses now, but Jose clearly has a better, more coherent squad available to him. Nobody's asking for miracles here.

Cheap shot there Saoirse, cheap shot. But I like it. Judging by how many articles came out, I can imagine there were so many journalists happy to spot that one

But come on honestly, do you actually think he's had enough time already to turn our fortunes around?

I'm not interested in excuses for him, just a bit of realism.

Saoirse · Jul 7, 2020

Ledley's Right Foot said:
Cheap shot there Saoirse, cheap shot. But I like it. Judging by how many articles came out, I can imagine there were so many journalists happy to spot that one

But come on honestly, do you actually think he's had enough time already to turn our fortunes around?

I'm not interested in excuses for him, just a bit of realism.

Completely? No. Like I said, I don't expect miracles - I didn't expect Top 4 from that starting position. But I did think, with a squad that came 4th, reached a CL Final and then had £150m of investment, he could comfortably make the Europa and probably finish 5th which we were only a couple of points behind at the time. There are problems with the team, no doubt about it, but not problems so bad as to excuse going 3-0 down to Sheffield United, going out of Europe without a fight, or losing at home to the worst team in the league.

rabbikeane · Jul 7, 2020

Saoirse said:
Literally Tactics Tim got (much) better results than Mourinho has. We hear all the excuses now, but Jose clearly has a better, more coherent squad available to him. Nobody's asking for miracles here.

Debatable about the squad, they weren't as fatigued, injured, and hit by a three month break where they couldn't be together. Anyway it's two different scenarios that doesn't compare. And despite Sherwood's team having good win ratio, it lost almost every time it met good opponent, they were effective against those they should beat but struggled against its equals and better. Absolute trashed against the big teams (which to be fair AVBs team same season also did). Sent out of the domestic cups by West Ham and Arsenal, lost another against Arsenal, 1-5 loss, 0-4 loss, another 0-4 all in half a season.

1882andallthat · Jul 7, 2020

fishhhandaricecake said:
Well it worked vs Everton and West Ham and Man.City and Liverpool and to an extent recently against Man.U so perhaps we've in the past not had the right mentality, or quality of players, or team organisation or more pragmatic balanced style all of which we're slowly starting to see now.

Sorry but i disagree our best form of defence is attack, that might have been the case when we had prime Walker and Rose bombing on down the flanks with Wanyama mopping up, Dembele bossing CM, Erisken creating shit tons of chances and Son,Kane,Dele causing trouble but we don't have the squad or players to go gung-ho at teams now. We saw what a slightly more positive approach and line-up against Sheff.Utd led to... a resounding 3-1 loss.

It had some effect but against the sides you quote, in two of those cases we let in goals and in all of them our defence gave away chances that the opposition failed to take, even West Ham had a couple of decent chances through our defensive errors.
I would also disagree with the reasons as to why we lost to Sheff Utd. We didn't lose because we went gung ho. We lost because we were poor in the final third, where we couldn't string a final pass together and lacked intelligence in failing to pass to players in better positions on the one hand and on the other hand it was down to rank bad defending, switching off and ball watching, I saw 4 Spurs defenders standing in a line like shop dummies whilst the Sheff Utd player standing just in front of them simply tapped it in to go 2-0 up, and for that first goal our defence left wide open spaces and switched off for the pass to get through.

The players we have in my opinion are simply incapable of staying fully concentrated for the entire game, and always have a few misakes in them, which is why one goal will rarely ever be enough, and on the odd occasions we don't concede it's usually because other teams have been wasteful.

Wheeler Dealer · Jul 7, 2020

Gb160 said:
You're wasting your breath mate.
He's so riddled with anti-Jose bias he limps when he walks.

Unfortunately he's not alone

Ledley's Right Foot · Jul 7, 2020

Saoirse said:
Completely? No. Like I said, I don't expect miracles - I didn't expect Top 4 from that starting position. But I did think, with a squad that came 4th, reached a CL Final and then had £150m of investment, he could comfortably make the Europa and probably finish 5th which we were only a couple of points behind at the time. There are problems with the team, no doubt about it, but not problems so bad as to excuse going 3-0 down to Sheffield United, going out of Europe without a fight, or losing at home to the worst team in the league.

They were tough moments, true. I just don't think he can get us performing this quickly from where we were. Football doesn't work like that to my mind. If he had lost the dressing room, as Poch was reported to, I'd be worried but I'm seeing development, recognition of the problems and a plan.

It's the players on the pitch that's the real issue for me. I like what we have but we need a Dembele, Wanyama, Eriksen and Walker to make this team challenge for the top 3. 4 great players, as yet not replaced.

Add those 4 into this squad and we are in the mix. The success or failure of mourinho will be caused by the players bought and sold...and any academy players we might unearth.

Coaching will only take us so far. And for me, the worrying thing about this season is the mix of players on the pitch, not who is coaching us. Give him time. It'll be some bloody story if he takes us to glory.

Ionman34 · Jul 7, 2020

enfieldyid said:
I gave him a chance, then I paid to go to the Chelsea Home and Red Bull Lepzig games. The Chelsea Game where we were completely outplayed by a 19 year old midfielder. I realised he was done. I wasted my money going to see that rubbish. Then there was the RB Lepzig game where we created nothing and I do not care we had no forwards. We chose not to create anything that was his tactic was to defend and that was it. Mourinho does not know how to set up attacking play.

Just... don't

Ionman34 · Jul 7, 2020

Bobby TwoShots said:
Being the former manager of Chelsea isn't why people want him out. It's his boring crappy football. You could just as easily say those who support him are blinded by his record.

Err, yes it is.

You only have to look at the poll to see this

C0YS · Jul 7, 2020

1882andallthat said:
It had some effect but against the sides you quote, in two of those cases we let in goals and in all of them our defence gave away chances that the opposition failed to take, even West Ham had a couple of decent chances through our defensive errors.
I would also disagree with the reasons as to why we lost to Sheff Utd. We didn't lose because we went gung ho. We lost because we were poor in the final third, where we couldn't string a final pass together and lacked intelligence in failing to pass to players in better positions on the one hand and on the other hand it was down to rank bad defending, switching off and ball watching, I saw 4 Spurs defenders standing in a line like shop dummies whilst the Sheff Utd player standing just in front of them simply tapped it in to go 2-0 up, and for that first goal our defence left wide open spaces and switched off for the pass to get through.

The players we have in my opinion are simply incapable of staying fully concentrated for the entire game, and always have a few misakes in them, which is why one goal will rarely ever be enough, and on the odd occasions we don't concede it's usually because other teams have been wasteful.

Why? Do they have ADHD or something?

They are capable, they just need to learn. They did it last night, the block was effective, they did it at West Ham at Man utd more or less. None of those teams were particularly wasteful. Focusing for 90 minutes is exactly a thing that can be coached. This is not inherent to players.

Under Poch we would make a lot of mistakes, but we played in a way that accepts that mistakes might happen, you play high up, you try to play from the back, mistakes will happen. These continued because of a confidence problem and maybe a concentration problem. Sheff Utd was a return to earlier in the season.

Sheff Utd, focusing just on why we lost, was mostly to do with a failure to track back and stick to markers, Yes you defensive error because of the Sheffield Utd player standing infront of the backline. But the defence also had to focus on the guy who was free in the middle. This happened all the time, too many free men in the box and the defence was exposed. Individual errors are one thing, but the bigger problem is when you allow overloads in your own box, it's inevitable you are going to concede. Their first goal was scored as they had 7 men in the box compared to our 7, its very difficult to defend like that. So this was a team failure, more than a concentration one. The Everton game was good, because we made sure we had the numbers to deal with crosses. It's not complicated stuff, but it's a lack of communication and effort.

Bobby TwoShots · Jul 7, 2020

Ionman34 said:
Err, yes it is.

You only have to look at the poll to see this

Not sure what the poll proves. His style of football at Utd put a lot of people off as well as how he behaved in his last season at Chelsea. That's the reason why the Spurs fans I know didn't want him. And many would've taken Ancelotti, despite him being an ex-Chelsea manager.

emiley heskey · Jul 7, 2020

I think Jose should extend one year extension to jan vertonghen's contract and let him play as a LB behind Ben Davies. In the meantime, cirkin and sessegnon should go to loan and get experience and come back in 2021. Vert can certainly play defensive LB role very well I think

walworthyid · Jul 7, 2020

Saoirse said:
Completely? No. Like I said, I don't expect miracles - I didn't expect Top 4 from that starting position. But I did think, with a squad that came 4th, reached a CL Final and then had £150m of investment, he could comfortably make the Europa and probably finish 5th which we were only a couple of points behind at the time. There are problems with the team, no doubt about it, but not problems so bad as to excuse going 3-0 down to Sheffield United, going out of Europe without a fight, or losing at home to the worst team in the league.

Forget all of that stuff, the very least we can expect is decent football or some sign of progress towards decent football!
You can get bad footballers to play decent football just as much as you can get good footballers, which we have, to play bad football. Jose has got our team playing negative, defensive, boring football. It really is that simple. It is not even percentage football because you will always be up against it when you dont have the ball and dont have a cohesive plan of attack when you do have it.

Football has evolved in the last 5 or so years for 1 simple reason, the press. Managers have realised that the best way to both stop your opponents attacking and get your own team into good attacking positions is to press the ball high up the pitch. It has revolutionised football. On top of that, you can to some extent level the playing field between teams of different levels of ability. A less talented team, like sheffield utd, can press the living shit out of a more talented team, like spurs for example, and give themselves a much better chance of winning.

So if the argument, as many on here are saying, is that our players are crap and that is why we are struggling, then Jose should be trying to level the playing field by getting us to be aggressive and press the ball. Even if our attacking play is poor, which it wasnt previously, we would have a much better chance of scoring if we win the ball back in the opponents half.

If the argument is that our defence is shit, which again it wasnt, then Jose should be getting us to defend aggressively from the front by pressing the ball. You concede fewer chances if you restrict the opponents possession of the ball to their own half.

Either way, our players are super fit professional athletes, they can press the ball and that us exactly what they should be doing!

danielneeds · Jul 7, 2020

[

walworthyid said:
Forget all of that stuff, the very least we can expect is decent football or some sign of progress towards decent football!
You can get bad footballers to play decent football just as much as you can get good footballers, which we have, to play bad football. Jose has got our team playing negative, defensive, boring football. It really is that simple. It is not even percentage football because you will always be up against it when you dont have the ball and dont have a cohesive plan of attack when you do have it.

Football has evolved in the last 5 or so years for 1 simple reason, the press. Managers have realised that the best way to both stop your opponents attacking and get your own team into good attacking positions is to press the ball high up the pitch. It has revolutionised football. On top of that, you can to some extent level the playing field between teams of different levels of ability. A less talented team, like sheffield utd, can press the living shit out of a more talented team, like spurs for example, and give themselves a much better chance of winning.

So if the argument, as many on here are saying, is that our players are crap and that is why we are struggling, then Jose should be trying to level the playing field by getting us to be aggressive and press the ball. Even if our attacking play is poor, which it wasnt previously, we would have a much better chance of scoring if we win the ball back in the opponents half.

If the argument is that our defence is shit, which again it wasnt, then Jose should be getting us to defend aggressively from the front by pressing the ball. You concede fewer chances if you restrict the opponents possession of the ball to their own half.

Either way, our players are super fit professional athletes, they can press the ball and that us exactly what they should be doing!

I hate to break it to you but the press is not a new invention of the last five years. Go back and watch some of the Liverpool sides of the 80s or the Dutch total football team, they would press the shit out of the opponents.

Football goes in cycles, and the current pressing one is a response to the Spanish possession game that became ubiquitous by the end of the 00s, when dominating midfield was the be all and end all.

That was Jose’s time and in the PL you used to get those unbearable to watch matches between the big sides when Fergie would go to Stamford Bridge or Anfield and stick Park Ji-Sung in midfield and Rooney on the wing and try to stifle and control midfield and happily take a point.

A more sophisticated pressing game was developed to negate tiki-taka and that’s how football always moves, a response to what's happening currently. There are more patterns and sequences of play mapped out by cutting-edge coaches now, and that’s where Jose has been left behind somewhat. As good at organising defences and shape as he is, he still thinks individual players should decide the attacking play rather than pre-determined patterns and triggers.

Can you still be successful this way? Maybe if you’ve got the best attacking players, but if not, you’re at a big disadvantage facing a team well-coached on what to do in the attacking phases.

walworthyid · Jul 7, 2020

danielneeds said:
[

I hate to break it to you but the press is not a new invention of the last five years. Go back and watch some of the Liverpool sides of the 80s or the Dutch total football team, they would press the shit out of the oppoents.

Football goes in cycles, and the current pressing one is a response to the Spanish possession game that dominated the end of the 00s, when dominating midfield was the be all and end all.

That was Jose’s time and in the PL you used to get those unbearable to watch matches between the big sides when Fergie would go to Stamford Bridge or Anfield and stick Park Ji-Sung in midfield and Rooney on the wing and try to stifle and control midfield and happily take a point.

A more sophisticated pressing game was developed to negate tiki-taka and that’s how football always moves. There are more patterns and sequences of play mapped out by cutting-edge coaches now, and that’s where Jose has been left behind somewhat. As good at organising defences and shape as he is, he still thinks individual players should decide the attacking play rather than pre-determined patterns and triggers.

Can you still be successful this way? Maybe if you’ve got the best attacking players, but if not you’re at a big disadvantage facing a team well-coached on what to do in the attacking phases.

All of that may be true, but my central points remain.
The press has revolutionised football in the last 5 years for the reasons I outlined.
We should be pressing for the reasons I outlined.
Jose is not doing that.
We are playing shit, negative football with no sign of progress.
We will remain playing shit, negative football while jose is manager.

Gareth88 · Jul 7, 2020

danielneeds said:
[

I hate to break it to you but the press is not a new invention of the last five years. Go back and watch some of the Liverpool sides of the 80s or the Dutch total football team, they would press the shit out of the opponents.

Football goes in cycles, and the current pressing one is a response to the Spanish possession game that became ubiquitous by the end of the 00s, when dominating midfield was the be all and end all.

That was Jose’s time and in the PL you used to get those unbearable to watch matches between the big sides when Fergie would go to Stamford Bridge or Anfield and stick Park Ji-Sung in midfield and Rooney on the wing and try to stifle and control midfield and happily take a point.

A more sophisticated pressing game was developed to negate tiki-taka and that’s how football always moves, a response to what's happening currently. There are more patterns and sequences of play mapped out by cutting-edge coaches now, and that’s where Jose has been left behind somewhat. As good at organising defences and shape as he is, he still thinks individual players should decide the attacking play rather than pre-determined patterns and triggers.

Can you still be successful this way? Maybe if you’ve got the best attacking players, but if not you’re at a big disadvantage facing a team well-coached on what to do in the attacking phases.

Bravo sir

danielneeds · Jul 7, 2020

walworthyid said:
All of that may be true, but my central points remain.
The press has revolutionised football in the last 5 years for the reasons I outlined.
We should be pressing for the reasons I outlined.
Jose is not doing that.
We are playing shit, negative football with no sign of progress.
We will remain playing shit, negative football while jose is manager.

I agree, with your points on Jose. I wouldn't say it's impossible to have success under him. Both he and Conte proved you can be effective with counter-attacking football in this league, but as I say, you've got to have the very best attacking players, and they both had Hazard, Costa, Fabregas, Matic, Willian, some of the best players in the league at the time.

If we're not gonna invest and buy the best players, then there's really very little point in having Jose.

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