What's new

Harry Winks - Leicester City

Donki

Has a "Massive Member" Member
May 14, 2007
14,451
18,966
if we manage to get soumare and eze i think sissoko would be sold and dier would be used as a CB

No problems with Dier being used as a CB, he's much better there than in midfield. I would be very surprised if Jose moved Sissoko on before Winks. I like Winks, don't get me wrong but Sissoko ticks many more boxes for Jose.
 

Hakkz

Svensk hetsporre
Jul 6, 2012
8,196
17,270
So far we have options at CM (midfield 3) of Dele, GLC, NDombele, Winks, Gedson, Sissoko, Dier, so 7 players for 3 positions. If Jose does want another DM that will be 8 into 3. No matter how you cut it we are over stocked there so choices have to be made. It will be between Dier, Sissoko and Winks who goes... and what do we really do with Dele?

Of that list I would expect Dier to leave first, followed by Sissoko if we got a good offer for him.
 

Locotoro

Prince of Zamunda
Sep 2, 2004
9,326
13,915
Now it's my turn to pick your post apart

One of the best young midfielders in the world? Ahahaha. You do realise GLC and Ndombele are both younger than Winks right? And they are clearly a class above Winks.

Can you quantify on what basis are ranking GLC and TN as "a class above" Winks?
- Statistically this season, you'd be wrong. Whilst I see the quality in all three players, Winks has a higher pass success rate, higher aerial duels won (despite being the shortest), highest tackles per game, highest interceptions, highest clearances, highest number of blocks per game, lowest number of dispossessions and loss of control per game, much higher number of average passes and long ball success rate.
So please do tell me, on what quantifiable basis, are you concluding this point that GLC and TN are a class apart?

Ok, I will pick this apart one by one.
First of all, who are these peers at the highest level who rate him? A throwaway comment by Guardiola? the same guy who said there are hundreds of Winks's playing in Spain? Ah ok.

Saying Mourinho rates him as a bit of a leap isn't it? We have an injury crisis in CM and the only alternative to Winks is Dier and new kid Gedson. Before that Winks was benched behind the mighty Sissoko. SO basically I am calling it that you are talking absolute rubbish. There is very little evidence so far that Mourinho really rates Winks. Wink is practically picked by default. Gedson is brand new and Ndombele isn't fully fit.

James Maddison: The quality he [Winks] has he was able to play through with a quick pass, two touch, receives it, turns and passes through,” Maddison told Sky Sports. “That’s the quality of the opposition we play against. You cannot switch off.”

Gareth Southgate: "he’s probably a good as a midfield player that we’ve got in the country at connecting back to front "

Guardiola: "Winks..has the ability to come on the pitch and change the game, he's exceptional"
- The quote about hundreds of winks in Spain? There's no such quote. Guardiola was referring to the style of young players in Spain. He didn't mention Winks' lack of ability.

Gary Mabbut: "If he continues the way he's improving, he'll be a future club captain".

Jermaine Jenas (on winks playing against R Madrid): "I look at this player and see he’s capable of dealing with key moments in the season, it spoke volumes. And none of the players seemed to flinch. No one kind of looked over at each other to say: “God, what’s he doing here?” And he came on and he did what he did. Which was to be very comfortable, keep it simple, and do the job....He was confident on the ball, always wanted the ball. And even when he lost the ball he went and won it back. He didn’t panic. It was a really accomplished, European type of display from him"

Danny Murphy: "His performance confirmed my belief that he's one of the best midfielders in the country"

This is just from the first page of a Google search and I think you'll agree that neither you nor I know more about what it takes to be a quality Professional Footballer than any of these (former) professionals, I'd be shocked if you disagreed.

On Mourinho, of the 18 games, we've played under him, Winks has been fit for 15 and has played in 13 (with 2 being unused sub). More than any other CM (including Dier). So no, it's not a leap of faith to say Mourinho rates him. A lot of evidence to suggest that in fact, he rates him highly. FYI, he was benched behind Sissoko when he was injured.

Ornstien in his latest article says we were very close to signing Emre Can in January, Ally Gold suggesting we are going to go in hard for Soumare in the summer and a deal is all lined up. That indicates to me Mourinho isn't happy with his CM options. It indicates he does not see Wink as along-term option in CM. I fully expect that Winks will be back to the bench very soon and from next season he will only get games in the domestic cups or when injuries strike.

At the end of the day it's the same old story, people like you can't wait to come on here and try mug off people that don't rate Winks very much after he produces one good performance in about 6 months. He's been utterly underwhelming in the PL for Spurs, and a good performance from him is the exception not the rule. Yet you start saying people who don't rate Winks are clueless about football. It is pathetic.

For you to come on here and shout that Mourinho clearly rates Winks because in the midst of an injury crisis he has played him in 4 games in succession when before that he was on the bench is laughable. Talk about stretching it.

You question the opinions of Poch, Guardiola and professionals playing in the game now and in the past but you are actually willing to listen to opinions from Ornstein and Ally Gold telling us Winks is being replaced? Really? Those journalists whose main job is to sell papers and get clicks? Please don't tell me that is the case?. You're smarter than that. Where is the real evidence that we're going for Soumare or that we actually went for Emre Can and even so in order to replace Winks? Any quotes from real club sources?

We signed Gedson in January, tried to sign Emre Can in January and by all accounts want Soumare. That strongly suggests Winks is not part of Mourinho's long term thinking in CM. Next season will prove you are wrong, Winks will not be in our first 11.

In January, we signed Gedson, (I'm ignoring Emre and Soumoure because there is no actual evidence of this). following the long term injury of Sissoko, a player who is very similar in style. So again, I'd like to understand where this suggestion comes that Winks is not part of JM's long term thinking even though he's played more games than most of the squad.

This post isn't intended to pull you on your post or make you look bad. I think what you're doing is judging Winks based on how YOU want him to play or how YOU believe the role should be carried out instead of actually assessing what he does for the team and what he is very good at. Is he going to be the towering beast that will go through opponents to win the ball? No. Is he going to be the slippery technical dribbler that evades 3 or 4 tackles and breaks into the box with a goal? Probably not. But what he does very well is make an interception or tackle just in front of our box and move the ball forward very quickly and accurately to our front options to do their job and get forward just in front of their box to provide an option. When he's used as an option he spreads the play very well and makes sure we don't lose possession often. Try looking at him compared to others in the league and then reassess how good he actually is at his job.[/QUOTE]
 
Last edited:

wrd

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2014
13,603
58,005
Is there a player on this team who causes more frustration when they play well than Harry Winks
 

Primativ

Well-Known Member
Aug 9, 2017
3,229
12,486
Now it's my turn to pick your post apart



Can you quantify on what basis are ranking GLC and TN as "a class above" Winks?
- Statistically this season, you'd be wrong. Whilst I see the quality in all three players, Winks has a higher pass success rate, higher aerial duels won (despite being the shortest), highest tackles per game, highest interceptions, highest clearances, highest number of blocks per game, lowest number of dispossessions and loss of control per game, much higher number of average passes and long ball success rate.
So please do tell me, on what quantifiable basis, are you concluding this point that GLC and TN are a class apart?



James Maddison: The quality he [Winks] has he was able to play through with a quick pass, two touch, receives it, turns and passes through,” Maddison told Sky Sports. “That’s the quality of the opposition we play against. You cannot switch off.”

Gareth Southgate: "he’s probably a good as a midfield player that we’ve got in the country at connecting back to front "

Guardiola: "Winks..has the ability to come on the pitch and change the game, he's exceptional"
- The quote about hundreds of winks in Spain? There's no such quote. Guardiola was referring to the style of young players in Spain. He didn't mention Winks' lack of ability.

Gary Mabbut: "If he continues the way he's improving, he'll be a future club captain".

Jermaine Jenas (on winks playing against R Madrid): "I look at this player and see he’s capable of dealing with key moments in the season, it spoke volumes. And none of the players seemed to flinch. No one kind of looked over at each other to say: “God, what’s he doing here?” And he came on and he did what he did. Which was to be very comfortable, keep it simple, and do the job....He was confident on the ball, always wanted the ball. And even when he lost the ball he went and won it back. He didn’t panic. It was a really accomplished, European type of display from him"

Danny Murphy: "His performance confirmed my belief that he's one of the best midfielders in the country"

This is just from the first page of a Google search and I think you'll agree that neither you nor I know more about what it takes to be a quality Professional Footballer than any of these (former) professionals, I'd be shocked if you disagreed.

On Mourinho, of the 18 games, we've played under him, Winks has been fit for 15 and has played in 13 (with 2 being unused sub). More than any other CM (including Dier). So no, it's not a leap of faith to say Mourinho rates him. A lot of evidence to suggest that in fact. FYI, he was benched behind Sissoko when he was injured.



You question the opinions of Poch, Guardiola and professionals playing in the game now and in the past but you are actually willing to listen to opinions from Ornstein and Ally Gold telling us Winks is being replaced? Really? Those journalists whose main job is to sell papers and get clicks? Please don't tell me that is the case?. You're smarter than that. Where is the real evidence that we're going for Soumare or that we actually went for Emre Can and even so in order to replace Winks? Any quotes from real club sources?



In January, we signed Gedson, (I'm ignoring Emre and Soumoure because there is no actual evidence of this). following the long term injury of Sissoko, a player who is very similar in style. So again, I'd like to understand where this suggestion comes that Winks is not part of JM's long term thinking even though he's played more games than most of the squad.

This post isn't intended to pull you on your post or make you look bad. I think what you're doing is judging Winks based on how YOU want him to play or how YOU believe the role should be carried out instead of actually assessing what he does for the team and what he is very good at. Is he going to be the towering beast that will go through opponents to win the ball? No. Is he going to be the slippery technical dribbler that evades 3 or 4 tackles and breaks into the box with a goal? Probably not. But what he does very well is make an interception or tackle just in front of our box and move the ball forward very quickly and accurately to our front options to do their job and get forward just in front of their box to provide an option. When he's used as an option he spreads the play very well and makes sure we don't lose possession often. Try looking at him compared to others in the league and then reassess how good he actually is at his job.
[/QUOTE]


Are you honestly saying you think Winks is on par with GLC and Ndombele? deary me. I don't need pass success rates to see that GLC are Ndombele are both far better on the ball than Winks is. Jesus man use your eyes. What on earth do you watch? This denial from you just shows you are utterly clueless. There is little point reading the rest of your post if you are sitting there with a straight face and denying that GLC and Ndombele are a class above Winks, frankly I am embarrassed for you.
 

carpediem991

Well-Known Member
May 31, 2011
8,836
20,308
Now it's my turn to pick your post apart



Can you quantify on what basis are ranking GLC and TN as "a class above" Winks?
- Statistically this season, you'd be wrong. Whilst I see the quality in all three players, Winks has a higher pass success rate, higher aerial duels won (despite being the shortest), highest tackles per game, highest interceptions, highest clearances, highest number of blocks per game, lowest number of dispossessions and loss of control per game, much higher number of average passes and long ball success rate.
So please do tell me, on what quantifiable basis, are you concluding this point that GLC and TN are a class apart?

Ok, I will pick this apart one by one.

Thats why statistics give a hint but not close to tell the whole story. Of course you get a higher pass success rate when you play lots of safe passes to your CM partner or to the defenders.
And we clearly seeing GLC and TN improving with each game as they are bedded in on different positions on the pitch. You can hardly quantify creativity, but by actually watching the games you will see GLC and Tanguy are way more able to spot quick through balls or get themselves in good positions to score goals. And you can hardly question the work rate.
Not saying Winks is terrible and I think he cemented his spot right now, but honestly he offers less than the other two. Espacially going forward.
 

Locotoro

Prince of Zamunda
Sep 2, 2004
9,326
13,915
Are you honestly saying you think Winks is on par with GLC and Ndombele? deary me. I don't need pass success rates to see that GLC are Ndombele are both far better on the ball than Winks is. Jesus man use your eyes. What on earth do you watch? This denial from you just shows you are utterly clueless. There is little point reading the rest of your post if you are sitting there with a straight face and denying that GLC and Ndombele are a class above Winks, frankly I am embarrassed for you.

This is what I am reading in your post above:
1) I'm completely dodging your questions and request for any evidence to support my claims because I actually don't have a shred of evidence.
2) I'm going to completely misrepresent your response by making an outlandish point and make you sound crazy so people feel embarrassed to agree with you.
3) I'm going to pretend that your view is so fringe that even replying to it would bring my wholly fact-based view into disrepute.

Very simple debating tactics when you actually don't have any points to make. The opportunity is still there for you to provide tangible evidence to support your opinion or to admit that your assessment is based on personal judgement contrary to that of professionals in the game with a wealth of experience.
 

Primativ

Well-Known Member
Aug 9, 2017
3,229
12,486
But what he does very well is make an interception or tackle just in front of our box and move the ball forward very quickly and accurately to our front options to do their job and get forward just in front of their box to provide an option. .
[/QUOTE]

Haha, what?! Winks is a sideways passer, the players who very quickly move the ball forward accurately and quickly are GLC and Ndombele. What you are praising Winks for doing is one (of many things) that GLC and Ndombele are clearly far superior at doing.

Forward passing stats statistically actually include sideways passes which go slightly forward but are actually more sideways. It is why stats don't tell the full story, and if you rely on stats, will suggest Winks is a very progressive passer. However if you watch every Spurs game, you will know Winks is frustratingly not a very progressive passer at all. It is also one of the very noticeable things which Ndombele and GLC are much better at than Winks, which is passing forward.
 

dudu

Well-Known Member
Jan 28, 2011
5,314
11,048


Are you honestly saying you think Winks is on par with GLC and Ndombele? deary me. I don't need pass success rates to see that GLC are Ndombele are both far better on the ball than Winks is. Jesus man use your eyes. What on earth do you watch? This denial from you just shows you are utterly clueless. There is little point reading the rest of your post if you are sitting there with a straight face and denying that GLC and Ndombele are a class above Winks, frankly I am embarrassed for you.
[/QUOTE]

You're the master of you're own downfall in every argument you make because you can't help but use exaggeration and hyperbole to try and make some grand elaborate point about how awful some of our players are.
 

Primativ

Well-Known Member
Aug 9, 2017
3,229
12,486
This is what I am reading in your post above:
1) I'm completely dodging your questions and request for any evidence to support my claims because I actually don't have a shred of evidence.
2) I'm going to completely misrepresent your response by making an outlandish point and make you sound crazy so people feel embarrassed to agree with you.
3) I'm going to pretend that your view is so fringe that even replying to it would bring my wholly fact-based view into disrepute.

Very simple debating tactics when you actually don't have any points to make. The opportunity is still there for you to provide tangible evidence to support your opinion or to admit that your assessment is based on personal judgement contrary to that of professionals in the game with a wealth of experience.


Mate when you basically try to invalidate one of the most reliable journalists in world football who says he has it on good authority we were hard in for Can, (we also had ITK backing this up), plus we have other people suggesting we want Soumare in the summer, and you just ignore this and call it rubbish, what is the point in debating? I am telling you it is obvious Mourinho wants to strengthen CM and Winks is only playing as Jose has little other choice at the moment, you think Mourinho really rates Winks, that is your perogative but I will call you out on it.

There is fuck all evidence Mourinho sees Winks as a long term solution in CM other than him starting 4 games in a row amidst an injury crisis. Time will tell, but when all players are fit I find it hard to see Winks in the first 11. I firmly believe Jose will want another CM in the summer and his first choice three will be Ndombele, GLC and a new signing.
 

allpaths

Well-Known Member
Oct 31, 2014
3,174
8,381
Thats why statistics give a hint but not close to tell the whole story. Of course you get a higher pass success rate when you play lots of safe passes to your CM partner or to the defenders.
And we clearly seeing GLC and TN improving with each game as they are bedded in on different positions on the pitch. You can hardly quantify creativity, but by actually watching the games you will see GLC and Tanguy are way more able to spot quick through balls or get themselves in good positions to score goals. And you can hardly question the work rate.
Not saying Winks is terrible and I think he cemented his spot right now, but honestly he offers less than the other two. Espacially going forward.
Imo he doesnt offer less, he just offers something different that is less flashy and noticeable than the final killer balls that GLC and Tanguy look to play.

My criticism of Harry is he's far too predictable at times, he needs to add variety to his passing, which I think is starting to creep into his game.

People also need to remember two things about Harry, that despite his age he is still relatively inexpierenced with a lack of professional games under his belt and second he never was the main midfield man coming through the academy. So he never had the responsibility to make things happen, he always just had to keep possession. Imo he only know developing past that academy frame of mind.
 

Locotoro

Prince of Zamunda
Sep 2, 2004
9,326
13,915
Thats why statistics give a hint but not close to tell the whole story. Of course you get a higher pass success rate when you play lots of safe passes to your CM partner or to the defenders.
And we clearly seeing GLC and TN improving with each game as they are bedded in on different positions on the pitch. You can hardly quantify creativity, but by actually watching the games you will see GLC and Tanguy are way more able to spot quick through balls or get themselves in good positions to score goals. And you can hardly question the work rate.
Not saying Winks is terrible and I think he cemented his spot right now, but honestly he offers less than the other two. Espacially going forward.

This is at least a post that debates my points so for that I commend you.

But I disagree in part. I agree that we're seeing an improvement for TN and GLC but we're also seeing an improvement for HW. All three players are improving under the new system and the requirements fit their skill set. All three are very good and receiving the ball from the back line, turning quickly and making a forward pass into a player in threatening position and then getting up to support them. I actually think we have the perfect three to replicate or even improve on Liverpool's style of play if we went that way. Each player has a slightly different "twang". With TN you're getting a lot of power and technical dribbling ability, with GLC you're getting more passing and vision and with HW you're getting more off the ball workrate and composure which is probably more suited to the most defensive role of the three. All three are working very well and the value we give them depends on what you are looking for in any one given match.
 

Shadydan

Well-Known Member
Jul 7, 2012
38,247
104,143
Now it's my turn to pick your post apart



Can you quantify on what basis are ranking GLC and TN as "a class above" Winks?
- Statistically this season, you'd be wrong. Whilst I see the quality in all three players, Winks has a higher pass success rate, higher aerial duels won (despite being the shortest), highest tackles per game, highest interceptions, highest clearances, highest number of blocks per game, lowest number of dispossessions and loss of control per game, much higher number of average passes and long ball success rate.
So please do tell me, on what quantifiable basis, are you concluding this point that GLC and TN are a class apart?



James Maddison: The quality he [Winks] has he was able to play through with a quick pass, two touch, receives it, turns and passes through,” Maddison told Sky Sports. “That’s the quality of the opposition we play against. You cannot switch off.”

Gareth Southgate: "he’s probably a good as a midfield player that we’ve got in the country at connecting back to front "

Guardiola: "Winks..has the ability to come on the pitch and change the game, he's exceptional"
- The quote about hundreds of winks in Spain? There's no such quote. Guardiola was referring to the style of young players in Spain. He didn't mention Winks' lack of ability.

Gary Mabbut: "If he continues the way he's improving, he'll be a future club captain".

Jermaine Jenas (on winks playing against R Madrid): "I look at this player and see he’s capable of dealing with key moments in the season, it spoke volumes. And none of the players seemed to flinch. No one kind of looked over at each other to say: “God, what’s he doing here?” And he came on and he did what he did. Which was to be very comfortable, keep it simple, and do the job....He was confident on the ball, always wanted the ball. And even when he lost the ball he went and won it back. He didn’t panic. It was a really accomplished, European type of display from him"

Danny Murphy: "His performance confirmed my belief that he's one of the best midfielders in the country"

This is just from the first page of a Google search and I think you'll agree that neither you nor I know more about what it takes to be a quality Professional Footballer than any of these (former) professionals, I'd be shocked if you disagreed.

On Mourinho, of the 18 games, we've played under him, Winks has been fit for 15 and has played in 13 (with 2 being unused sub). More than any other CM (including Dier). So no, it's not a leap of faith to say Mourinho rates him. A lot of evidence to suggest that in fact, he rates him highly. FYI, he was benched behind Sissoko when he was injured.



You question the opinions of Poch, Guardiola and professionals playing in the game now and in the past but you are actually willing to listen to opinions from Ornstein and Ally Gold telling us Winks is being replaced? Really? Those journalists whose main job is to sell papers and get clicks? Please don't tell me that is the case?. You're smarter than that. Where is the real evidence that we're going for Soumare or that we actually went for Emre Can and even so in order to replace Winks? Any quotes from real club sources?



In January, we signed Gedson, (I'm ignoring Emre and Soumoure because there is no actual evidence of this). following the long term injury of Sissoko, a player who is very similar in style. So again, I'd like to understand where this suggestion comes that Winks is not part of JM's long term thinking even though he's played more games than most of the squad.

This post isn't intended to pull you on your post or make you look bad. I think what you're doing is judging Winks based on how YOU want him to play or how YOU believe the role should be carried out instead of actually assessing what he does for the team and what he is very good at. Is he going to be the towering beast that will go through opponents to win the ball? No. Is he going to be the slippery technical dribbler that evades 3 or 4 tackles and breaks into the box with a goal? Probably not. But what he does very well is make an interception or tackle just in front of our box and move the ball forward very quickly and accurately to our front options to do their job and get forward just in front of their box to provide an option. When he's used as an option he spreads the play very well and makes sure we don't lose possession often. Try looking at him compared to others in the league and then reassess how good he actually is at his job.

This post is bloody fantastic mate (y)
 

Primativ

Well-Known Member
Aug 9, 2017
3,229
12,486
Imo he doesnt offer less, he just offers something different that is less flashy and noticeable than the final killer balls that GLC and Tanguy look to play.

My criticism of Harry is he's far too predictable at times, he needs to add variety to his passing, which I think is starting to creep into his game.

People also need to remember two things about Harry, that despite his age he is still relatively inexpierenced with a lack of professional games under his belt and second he never was the main midfield man coming through the academy. So he never had the responsibility to make things happen, he always just had to keep possession. Imo he only know developing past that academy frame of mind.


He absolutely offers less. I actually can't believe there are fans who are trying to make out Winks is on the same level as GLC and Ndombele. The gulf in class is massive. It is completely delusional.
 

Primativ

Well-Known Member
Aug 9, 2017
3,229
12,486
Also @Locotoro sure there are other players saying nice things about Winks, you will find the same about every footballer in the PL. It means absolutely nothing. It has no relevance at all to this discussion, just because Maddison says nice things about him, I am supposed to be convinced Winks is good enough to be one of our first 11 CM's? No. As I said, Winks is playing because Jose's options are limited. Once he has a chance to build his side, Winks will not be in it.
 
Top