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Time to drop the 4-2-3-1?

DomXYZ

Member
Sep 4, 2019
61
60
I've made a similar post on a different site but interested to know whether anyone else thinks we should try a 4-3-3? I'll explain why in section starting with the forwards...

forwards:

I think a front three of son-kane-lamela/whoever is fit enough, could work, son too me is a player who likes one on ones and as the left winger he's going to be asked to do that constantly, he's also very productive on the ball and knows how to get the ball into the final third, and it would allow kane to drop deep simarlarly to what he does for the england side

on the right wing i'd prefer lamela for now because I do think he's a productive player and can help all over that side offensively and defensively but I do think it's a position people should start looking at, we really have no quality there. I'd also really like to see sessengon tried there eventually

midfield:

I've said before but I do think a midfield 3 would suit all of our midfielders. currently we have no real 6 to play cdm but I do think sissoko if asked to just sit back defend, get the ball to the other midfielders, and protect the back four would do very well there. I think he could be a ball winner for us but Im worried about whether he's too clumsy

as the two midfielder in front of him I think all our options are perfect fits, ndomble wouldn'tn be asked to do as much as he's aksed now in a pivot, which i think would let him get forward and be more creative for the team. Winks has been struggling in the pivot all season and I think it's down to him being asked to do more than he can do. Take away alot of his defensive responsibilities by having him next to two more people I think he could do very very well. finally GLC would absolutely do well as a number 8, he reminds me alot of KDB and I do think he could provide an offensive threat from deep

defence:

i think a back four of davies - sanchez - foyth/dier/toby - aurier/foyth is what we should be using this season anyway, but I think having the fullbacks not being asked to provide the width all the time would allow our defence to stick to defending. at this point we don't have the defenders to build from the back so I think we need to focus on actual defending

let me know what you think
 

Cochise

Well-Known Member
Aug 8, 2019
4,763
12,519
I agree.

We have seen it on occasion this year, but rarely. Lamela being injured is a problem as he has looked good on the right when available, whilst a two from Dele, N'Dombele, GLC is balanced. What we lack, is a good DM as I do not trust Winks nor Sissoko in that role. Neither of them can organise the midfield, see threats and stay disciplined.

I think Poch is trying to get as many of his best players on the pitch at once and it is hurting us. Moura could be good if coached to hold his channel, but he seems to either sit too far inside because Poch wants him to or because he's clueless (I believe the former).
 

Kspur

Well-Known Member
Jul 13, 2014
498
739
I've made a similar post on a different site but interested to know whether anyone else thinks we should try a 4-3-3? I'll explain why in section starting with the forwards...

forwards:

I think a front three of son-kane-lamela/whoever is fit enough, could work, son too me is a player who likes one on ones and as the left winger he's going to be asked to do that constantly, he's also very productive on the ball and knows how to get the ball into the final third, and it would allow kane to drop deep simarlarly to what he does for the england side

on the right wing i'd prefer lamela for now because I do think he's a productive player and can help all over that side offensively and defensively but I do think it's a position people should start looking at, we really have no quality there. I'd also really like to see sessengon tried there eventually

midfield:

I've said before but I do think a midfield 3 would suit all of our midfielders. currently we have no real 6 to play cdm but I do think sissoko if asked to just sit back defend, get the ball to the other midfielders, and protect the back four would do very well there. I think he could be a ball winner for us but Im worried about whether he's too clumsy

as the two midfielder in front of him I think all our options are perfect fits, ndomble wouldn'tn be asked to do as much as he's aksed now in a pivot, which i think would let him get forward and be more creative for the team. Winks has been struggling in the pivot all season and I think it's down to him being asked to do more than he can do. Take away alot of his defensive responsibilities by having him next to two more people I think he could do very very well. finally GLC would absolutely do well as a number 8, he reminds me alot of KDB and I do think he could provide an offensive threat from deep

defence:

i think a back four of davies - sanchez - foyth/dier/toby - aurier/foyth is what we should be using this season anyway, but I think having the fullbacks not being asked to provide the width all the time would allow our defence to stick to defending. at this point we don't have the defenders to build from the back so I think we need to focus on actual defending

let me know what you think

nope. We neither have the players the movement nor the legs.
 

Everlasting Seconds

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2014
14,914
26,616
The problem, or silver bullet, is not one singular fucking combination of numbers.
At some point:
Lloris was the problem. Now he is not playing and we are not better off.
Then Alderweireld and Vertonghen were the problem. They are not playing and we are not better off.
Constantly the FBs, any FB, all the time, is the problem. Insert any player, and we are never better off.
Then the diamond was the problem. We are not playing the diamond nor the ruby or sapphire and we are not better off.
Then Eriksen was the problem. We are not playing Eriksen and we are not better off.
So no, it's not something as simple as just waltzing in with a simple solution to a imaginative problem.
 
Last edited:

DomXYZ

Member
Sep 4, 2019
61
60
The problem, or silver bullet, is not one singular fucking combination of numbers.
At some point:
Lloris was the problem. Now he is not playing and we are not better off.
Then Alderweireld and Vertonghen were the problem. They are not playing and we are not better off.
Constantly the FBs, any FB, all the time, is the problem. Insert any player, and we are never better off.
Then the diamond was the problem. We are not playing the diamond nor the ruby or sapphire and we are not better off.
Then Eriksen was the problem. We are not playing Eriksen and we are not better off.
So no, it's not something as simple as just waltzing in with a simple solution to a imaginative problem.

you're being a bit hyperbolic here

some of those problems you mentioned have only recently been addressed, I think you need to wait a bit to see a major difference.

at the moment the problem is clearly coaching + mental, if we start seeing consistent results, the mentality will improve
 

walworthyid

David Ginola
Oct 25, 2004
7,059
10,242
I personally don't like it. It is an overly defensive formation that sacrifices a player in the attacking area. Look at Sheffield utd, and many other teams, they had extra players in the forward area and strangled us. We couldn't play out. Yet they played out easily because we had fewer players to press them.

I also don't think that we have 2 players who are suited to the deep-lying role. Sissoko isnt. Ndombele isnt. Winks isnt.

Yes there are clearly confidence issues. Harmony in the camp issues. But we could set up properly. We have no pattern of play. No energy. No intensity. No imagination. No pace. No creativity. We are absolutely shambolic. The only times we have played well is when we have played how we used to. We were sustaining high energy pressure for entire matches week after week. Now we arent able to do it for a few minutes.

For me personally this is more than a blip. I love poch but this has been going on for very close to a year. As it stands a new manager would have some excellent players to work with, if we leave it for much longer we could end up losing quite a few of them.

I think that he should go immediately.
 

Everlasting Seconds

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2014
14,914
26,616
I personally don't like it.
I don’t either. I never have. I think 423shit is a formation that always will fail to get the best out of any team. However good a team is in 4231, I think they can always be better. But that’s important when things otherwise are fine. Now they are not fine, and choice of formation is the least of the present issues.
 

TEESSIDE1

Married, new job and Spurs on the up!
Jul 3, 2006
15,089
18,780
Doesn't matter what formation we play.

yep as the tactics don’t match the formation.

with a 4231 we in effect set up like:

.......................... Gazza ..........................
................ Dier ......... Sanchez ...............
................ Sissoko...................................
Aurier........................ Ndombele...... Davies
..................GLC.. Alli.. Son.......................
......................... Kane ..............................

Gaping holes at the back and our front 4 in each other’s back pockets.... no width, no movement.
 

Hoddle&Waddle

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2012
8,337
17,565
A straight 4-3-3 Would suit our players, give more cover to the full backs and allow us at times to leave the front 3 further up the pitch.
 

spids

Well-Known Member
Jul 19, 2015
6,647
27,841
The formation is fairly irrelevant whilst the players are unfit and disinterested.
 

punkisback

Well-Known Member
Apr 10, 2004
4,410
7,278
Play players who can retain the ball; we have too many who lose it and don't value it. Alli should be dropped when Lamela is fit; with lo Celso coming central. However we don't have a DM who can keep the ball.
 

Metalhead

But that's a debate for another thread.....
Nov 24, 2013
25,351
38,294
you're being a bit hyperbolic here

some of those problems you mentioned have only recently been addressed, I think you need to wait a bit to see a major difference.

at the moment the problem is clearly coaching + mental, if we start seeing consistent results, the mentality will improve
Sounds like a bit of a catch 22.
 

DJS

A hoonter must hoont
Dec 9, 2006
31,261
21,760
I think 4-2-3-1 is fine, theres a lot more to tactics then just the formation.

Its how team is organised and motivated.

Plus we really need to get a proper defensive midfielder - our best season was when we had beast-mode Wanyama in there being one of the best players every game. Man I miss beast mode Wanyama... :(
 

JAYSTAR

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2012
3,316
3,800
I've made a similar post on a different site but interested to know whether anyone else thinks we should try a 4-3-3? I'll explain why in section starting with the forwards...

forwards:

I think a front three of son-kane-lamela/whoever is fit enough, could work, son too me is a player who likes one on ones and as the left winger he's going to be asked to do that constantly, he's also very productive on the ball and knows how to get the ball into the final third, and it would allow kane to drop deep simarlarly to what he does for the england side

on the right wing i'd prefer lamela for now because I do think he's a productive player and can help all over that side offensively and defensively but I do think it's a position people should start looking at, we really have no quality there. I'd also really like to see sessengon tried there eventually

midfield:

I've said before but I do think a midfield 3 would suit all of our midfielders. currently we have no real 6 to play cdm but I do think sissoko if asked to just sit back defend, get the ball to the other midfielders, and protect the back four would do very well there. I think he could be a ball winner for us but Im worried about whether he's too clumsy

as the two midfielder in front of him I think all our options are perfect fits, ndomble wouldn'tn be asked to do as much as he's aksed now in a pivot, which i think would let him get forward and be more creative for the team. Winks has been struggling in the pivot all season and I think it's down to him being asked to do more than he can do. Take away alot of his defensive responsibilities by having him next to two more people I think he could do very very well. finally GLC would absolutely do well as a number 8, he reminds me alot of KDB and I do think he could provide an offensive threat from deep

defence:

i think a back four of davies - sanchez - foyth/dier/toby - aurier/foyth is what we should be using this season anyway, but I think having the fullbacks not being asked to provide the width all the time would allow our defence to stick to defending. at this point we don't have the defenders to build from the back so I think we need to focus on actual defending

let me know what you think
I've been saying exactly the same for quite a while. Sissoko naturally takes responsibility and loves to tackle. It's obvious he needs to become a 6. Ndombele and Lo Celso are both willing to tackle but need to be released to push forward and create.
 

Lighty64

I believe
Aug 24, 2010
10,400
12,476
I think 4-2-3-1 is fine, theres a lot more to tactics then just the formation.

Its how team is organised and motivated.

Plus we really need to get a proper defensive midfielder - our best season was when we had beast-mode Wanyama in there being one of the best players every game. Man I miss beast mode Wanyama... :(

and Dembele
 

TEESSIDE1

Married, new job and Spurs on the up!
Jul 3, 2006
15,089
18,780
A straight 4-3-3 Would suit our players, give more cover to the full backs and allow us at times to leave the front 3 further up the pitch.

433 is working wonders for both Man City and Liverpool, whereas Leicester are getting great joy out of 4141. Sadly for us with don’t have the players to do well with either formation.

4141 - No Defensive midfielder and useless full backs

433 - Pool have 2 sitting midfielders whom are both competent defensively and 1 box to box in Wijnaldum. City have a zillion options.

Whereas with us we’ve got no DM, Sissoko who’s energetic but can’t pass, cross or shoot, sideways and backwards Winks, GLC who looks a hell of player and Ndombele who likes to play on the front foot but lacks defensive qualities. The latter two are quality players but we don’t have 3 players who are capable of sitting in a midfield 3 and providing both defensive and offensive cover.
 
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