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Harry Winks - Leicester City

doctor stefan Freud

the tired tread of sad biology
Sep 2, 2013
15,170
72,169
Winks is a good player and had a good game for England. His problem is the same as all our midfielders at the moment. It's what he's being asked to do as a cm.
I’d love to see us play a 433 with Winks, Ndombele and Lo Celso rotating and with a specialist DM to protect the back four. Lo Celso could even play in the wide forward role
 

Timberwolf

Well-Known Member
Jan 17, 2008
10,328
50,217
I’d love to see us play a 433 with Winks, Ndombele and Lo Celso rotating and with a specialist DM to protect the back four. Lo Celso could even play in the wide forward role
Winks is such a talented but awkward player to fit into the side. I think a 4-3-3 really is the one system that would suit him best - a DM, a tempo setter (Winks) and a more creative option (Lo Celso/Ndombele) gives us the perfect balance.

I think trying to shoehorn him into a 2 man pivot/deep lying role is part of the reason our midfield has been so inconsistent recently.

Having said that, without him against Brighton we completely lost any capacity to maintain possession in the midfield, so it's really important that we find a system that suits both him and Ndombele.
 

JayB

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2011
6,652
26,046
what do we do? Dier and Wanyama are done, Sissoko Winks and Ndombele are not defensive midfielders and not sure Skipp is ready.

Other than play Winks there or convert Foyth its not the best situation. I understand your also probably referring to the diamond and not just the DM problem.
I've long thought that Davies would make a decent DM. He's a good passer and strong in the tackle. He's not what I would consider ideal as he doesn't have the athleticism to cover the ground necessary, but he's more mobile than Dier and I don't see why he couldn't fulfill that role as an emergency stopgap until we get someone more suitable in.
 

@Bobby__Lucky

Well-Known Member
Aug 20, 2013
2,933
3,982
I've long thought that Davies would make a decent DM. He's a good passer and strong in the tackle. He's not what I would consider ideal as he doesn't have the athleticism to cover the ground necessary, but he's more mobile than Dier and I don't see why he couldn't fulfill that role as an emergency stopgap until we get someone more suitable in.

I've thought same also for a long time.
 

@Bobby__Lucky

Well-Known Member
Aug 20, 2013
2,933
3,982
How do people think Winks would perform as one of the 3 attacking midfielders behind Kane?

I think he is better developing play from deeper. Is say in a 4231 as your suggesting, he would be best in a 2 with a dier or equivalent.

Maybe better would be seeing him in a 3 of a 433.

Though I don't think he'd let anyone down there, he's more an 8 than a 10.
 

Locotoro

Prince of Zamunda
Sep 2, 2004
9,328
13,927
I think he is better developing play from deeper. Is say in a 4231 as your suggesting, he would be best in a 2 with a dier or equivalent.

Maybe better would be seeing him in a 3 of a 433.

Though I don't think he'd let anyone down there, he's more an 8 than a 10.

I think he could operate as a very good 8 between the lines and have the defensive solidarity behind him in a 2 especially if one of those 2 was a player like Sissoko or Ndombele who would break and get beyond him
 

Sp3akerboxxx

Adoption: Nabil Bentaleb
Apr 4, 2006
5,180
7,621
Its perfectly fine that some of us think he's a good football but also question his role in a starting 11 that should feature better players in Ndombele & Lo Celso. I'm of the opinion you 100% need a defensive midfielder on the pitch, Winks just isn't that. Still a good player and an great option to have as "first backup" to all three spots. But not a guaranteed starter with the other players we have available.

How in the flying fuck do you know that lo celso is a better player when he hasn't even played in the premier League yet?

Winks has had a better season than n'dombele in my opinion too
 

Sp3akerboxxx

Adoption: Nabil Bentaleb
Apr 4, 2006
5,180
7,621
I can't see what Winks is either tbh. Gone are the days where as a CM all you had to be was combative. You need to be one of the following to play in that general area:

1) A good passer - by that I don't mean finding your left back, but good forward passes. Winks is OK, not noteworthy.
2) A good DM - Someone who closes gaps and shields the defence. Thereby you're not expected to attack or create anything with great forward passing, because your job is allowing others to do this. Winks doesn't seem to have the positioning to do this. He frequently vacates the middle of the park chasing after Danny Rose's man.
3) A scoring/attacking midfielder - See Ndombele. Winks is not an Ndombele. He gets nose bleeds.

So what is he? A useful squad player. A player that loves Spurs. Not a midfield lynchpin though, by any means.

I hate this "winks only passes sideways" nonsense. It is pretty much the most wrong opinion on this site at the moment, and I can prove it mathematically.

"Mauricio Pochettino favourite Harry Winks has been the top passer in the Premier League from midfield so far this season.
Ahead of the return of club football, the Englishman ranks above the likes of Chelsea's Jorginho and France and Manchester United playmaker Paul Pogba.

In four league games so far, the 23-year-old has made 283 passes, or 79.84 passes per 90 minutes for Tottenham Hotspur.

Norwich City's Moritz Leitner is the closest contender to the Spurs player at 73.16 followed by Jorginho 66.04, Granit Xhaka on 65.71 and Paul Pogba on 63.69.

Playing in a deeper role to recycle possession and keep the ball moving through his teammates, Winks is often accused of being overly conservative with his passing.

However, the numbers suggest that Winks is a victim of unfair perceptions.
When it comes to passes played into the final third, the Spurs player comes top with 15.24 per 90, or 54 in total.
That is hardly the mark of a footballer that takes a negative approach to the game."


People going on about conservative passing when he had PASSED THE BALL INTO THE FINAL THIRD FROM MIDFIELD MORE THAN ANY OTHER PLAYER IN THE PREMIER LEAGUE.
 

synththfc

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2017
3,740
26,716
I hate this "winks only passes sideways" nonsense. It is pretty much the most wrong opinion on this site at the moment, and I can prove it mathematically.

"Mauricio Pochettino favourite Harry Winks has been the top passer in the Premier League from midfield so far this season.
Ahead of the return of club football, the Englishman ranks above the likes of Chelsea's Jorginho and France and Manchester United playmaker Paul Pogba.

In four league games so far, the 23-year-old has made 283 passes, or 79.84 passes per 90 minutes for Tottenham Hotspur.

Norwich City's Moritz Leitner is the closest contender to the Spurs player at 73.16 followed by Jorginho 66.04, Granit Xhaka on 65.71 and Paul Pogba on 63.69.

Playing in a deeper role to recycle possession and keep the ball moving through his teammates, Winks is often accused of being overly conservative with his passing.

However, the numbers suggest that Winks is a victim of unfair perceptions.
When it comes to passes played into the final third, the Spurs player comes top with 15.24 per 90, or 54 in total.
That is hardly the mark of a footballer that takes a negative approach to the game."


People going on about conservative passing when he had PASSED THE BALL INTO THE FINAL THIRD FROM MIDFIELD MORE THAN ANY OTHER PLAYER IN THE PREMIER LEAGUE.

People will see what they want to see. Their minds are already made up about players, and once that happens there's rarely any turning back.
 

Trotter

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2009
2,169
3,312
I hate this "winks only passes sideways" nonsense. It is pretty much the most wrong opinion on this site at the moment, and I can prove it mathematically.

"Mauricio Pochettino favourite Harry Winks has been the top passer in the Premier League from midfield so far this season.
Ahead of the return of club football, the Englishman ranks above the likes of Chelsea's Jorginho and France and Manchester United playmaker Paul Pogba.

In four league games so far, the 23-year-old has made 283 passes, or 79.84 passes per 90 minutes for Tottenham Hotspur.

Norwich City's Moritz Leitner is the closest contender to the Spurs player at 73.16 followed by Jorginho 66.04, Granit Xhaka on 65.71 and Paul Pogba on 63.69.

Playing in a deeper role to recycle possession and keep the ball moving through his teammates, Winks is often accused of being overly conservative with his passing.

However, the numbers suggest that Winks is a victim of unfair perceptions.
When it comes to passes played into the final third, the Spurs player comes top with 15.24 per 90, or 54 in total.
That is hardly the mark of a footballer that takes a negative approach to the game."


People going on about conservative passing when he had PASSED THE BALL INTO THE FINAL THIRD FROM MIDFIELD MORE THAN ANY OTHER PLAYER IN THE PREMIER LEAGUE.

You do actually realise that was done over the first 4 games of the season, and over half of Winks passes that are in that category came in the last 20 minutes of the game against Newcastle, to who we were losing at home, where we were basically just passing sideways from Winks to wings and back, trying to draw them out, and the crowd were shouting "For fucks sake, one of you shoot"
You can manipulate stats to attempt to show anything you want, as that article has shown.

It is not showing how many passes you make from outside the final third into it, as you thought it was, it only shows how many ended up in final third. The vast majority were sideways passes that started and ended in final third, that achieved the square root of nothing, apart from getting the crowds back up at the time.
 
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Sp3akerboxxx

Adoption: Nabil Bentaleb
Apr 4, 2006
5,180
7,621
You do actually realise that was done over the first 4 games of the season, and over half of Winks passes that are in that category came in the last 20 minutes of the game against Newcastle, to who we were losing at home, where we were basically just passing sideways from Winks to wings and back, trying to draw them out, and the crowd were shouting "For fucks sake, one of you shoot"
You can manipulate stats to attempt to show anything you want, as that article has shown.

It is not showing how many passes you make from outside the final third into it, as you thought it was, it only shows how many ended up in final third. The vast majority were sideways passes that started and ended in final third, that achieved the square root of nothing, apart from getting the crowds back up at the time.

It's not manipulating stats. If you look at the top players in the world in his role - the likes of busquets etc, they ALL pass sideways and backwards more than they pass forwards. Are any Barcelona fans saying that busquets is a "conservative" passer? No, because half of his role is keeping possession.
 

Japhet

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2010
19,232
57,392
Since Winks is continually being accused of passing sideways, I think it's only fair to call out the players in front of him for continually not finding positions where he can pass to them. Lack of movement has been a major factor in our poor performances for a long time now.
 

Nick-TopSpursMan

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2005
4,000
18,943
Winks is a good little player and he could still become a very good player.

The problem is he simply isn't a DM and that's where he is being asked to play. He doesn't have the defensive awareness, positioning or nous to perform that role. He ends up getting caught the wrong side too often, leaving big gaps in front of the CBs, which is why we are so vulnerable to long shots. He doesn't track very well which is why opposition players are finding so much space on counter attacks or just inside the box from cut backs, crosses etc.

Winks should be playing either alongside a DM in the 4-2-3-1, or as one of the two cms in a 4-3-3 alongside a DM. This would allow him to focus on setting the tempo with his passing and using his energy to close down opponents without leaving gaps which exploit the defence.

For me, moving forward we should have the midfield structured in 1 of 2 ways.

In a 4-2-3-1:

DM 1 (the one who holds the most and protects the back 4): New signing (someone mobile, who reads the game well and is at least decent on the ball), Skipp
DM 2 (the one who helps out defensively but focuses on linking defence to attack and controlling midfield): Ndombele, Winks, Sissoko
CAM: Lo Celso, Alli

In a 4-3-3:

DM: New signing (someone mobile, who reads the game well and is at least decent on the ball), Skipp
2 CMs: Choose 2 from Ndombele, Lo Celso, Winks, Sissoko, Alli
 

double0

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2006
14,423
12,258
Winks is a good little player and he could still become a very good player.

The problem is he simply isn't a DM and that's where he is being asked to play. He doesn't have the defensive awareness, positioning or nous to perform that role. He ends up getting caught the wrong side too often, leaving big gaps in front of the CBs, which is why we are so vulnerable to long shots. He doesn't track very well which is why opposition players are finding so much space on counter attacks or just inside the box from cut backs, crosses etc.

Winks should be playing either alongside a DM in the 4-2-3-1, or as one of the two cms in a 4-3-3 alongside a DM. This would allow him to focus on setting the tempo with his passing and using his energy to close down opponents without leaving gaps which exploit the defence.

For me, moving forward we should have the midfield structured in 1 of 2 ways.

In a 4-2-3-1:

DM 1 (the one who holds the most and protects the back 4): New signing (someone mobile, who reads the game well and is at least decent on the ball), Skipp
DM 2 (the one who helps out defensively but focuses on linking defence to attack and controlling midfield): Ndombele, Winks, Sissoko
CAM: Lo Celso, Alli

In a 4-3-3:

DM: New signing (someone mobile, who reads the game well and is at least decent on the ball), Skipp
2 CMs: Choose 2 from Ndombele, Lo Celso, Winks, Sissoko, Alli
He only really got caught out against BM. Winks is deep lining play marker he can play the pivot in a two or three man midfield. People are concerned with our lack of victories at Tottenham , we're losing a lot of games (since last season) you can understand people will tend to look at our defensive midfield for not securing wins. If truth be told, our CB are poor and a lot of those defeats are down to our CB shifting responsibility not anticipating not closing down not tackling being out run just not defending well. Any DM playing in front of Vertonghen Toby will struggle.
 

Primativ

Well-Known Member
Aug 9, 2017
3,229
12,486
My ideal scenario is that Poch stays and we come through the other side of this a better and more evolved team.

However i would "love it!" if we got @Primativ 's ideal coach/manager to come in and his first act as coach/manager was to give Winks a new 6 year deal, make him captain and say he's going to build a team around him. :ROFLMAO::D

Won’t ever happen ?
 

Primativ

Well-Known Member
Aug 9, 2017
3,229
12,486
Since Winks is continually being accused of passing sideways, I think it's only fair to call out the players in front of him for continually not finding positions where he can pass to them. Lack of movement has been a major factor in our poor performances for a long time now.

Sorry you don’t get away with that. NDombele has shown in half a dozen games what a real incisive forward passer looks like.

Winks is playing behind the best number 9 in world football and you’re blaming a lack of movement? Come off it.

the fact is Winks is too conservative in his passing. He doesn’t have the vision and execution. He’s a good player but he’s just not THAT good. Certainly not good enough to build a midfield around at a PL challenging side which is where this argument stems from as some on here clearly do believe he’s better then he really is.
 

Japhet

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2010
19,232
57,392
Sorry you don’t get away with that. NDombele has shown in half a dozen games what a real incisive forward passer looks like.

Winks is playing behind the best number 9 in world football and you’re blaming a lack of movement? Come off it.

the fact is Winks is too conservative in his passing. He doesn’t have the vision and execution. He’s a good player but he’s just not THAT good. Certainly not good enough to build a midfield around at a PL challenging side which is where this argument stems from as some on here clearly do believe he’s better then he really is.

If you're happy with the movement up front and the players making themselves available, you're watching something different to me.
 

Trotter

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2009
2,169
3,312
You do actually realise that was done over the first 4 games of the season, and over half of Winks passes that are in that category came in the last 20 minutes of the game against Newcastle, to who we were losing at home, where we were basically just passing sideways from Winks to wings and back, trying to draw them out, and the crowd were shouting "For fucks sake, one of you shoot"
You can manipulate stats to attempt to show anything you want, as that article has shown.

It is not showing how many passes you make from outside the final third into it, as you thought it was, it only shows how many ended up in final third. The vast majority were sideways passes that started and ended in final third, that achieved the square root of nothing, apart from getting the crowds back up at the time.

But they also have other parts to their game, Busquets for example contributes a load of assists and defensively also. That is the difference, Winks contributes no assists, goals and very little defensively.
You cannot just be in the team for passing and passing alone, especially when most of that passing is negative, you are taking a place of somebody that adds something to the team.

Winks should not be a starter for Spurs, a true DM is needed, he should be a back-up number 8, assuming he can add further to the skill set he currently has, and actually start finding the killer passes and goals that he has so far failed to show. I don’t see a player better than Mason level there unfortunately
 
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